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Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, the amendment tabled today by the Government is a total vindication of the stand that this House has so far made on the issue. The Liberal Party may criticise this, but I believe that we have heard some very useful and wise concessions from the Government, to the extent that they will offer hope of reassuring the public and the staff about this policy. I am quite happy to give way as often as I am asked.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I am most obliged to the noble Lord. I should like to seek some clarification. We have talked about a Statement. The noble Lord then said that we could debate a Motion. As I understand it, if the Minister returns to this House with a Statement, we cannot table a Motion to amend that Statement. The object of my original question is to find out whether we should have a Statement, a Motion, a "take-note" Motion or whatever, so that the House may have another bite at this particularly bitter cherry.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, it would perhaps be preferable for the Government to answer this question. However, my understanding is that if a Motion for debate is tabled in this House, as we have been promised, any noble Lord may table an amendment to the Motion, whatever it happens to be. I do not know whether anybody from the Government Front Bench wishes to intervene at this stage. I shall certainly allow him the opportunity.
Lord Carter: My Lords, everything that has been said is entirely procedurally correct. There can be a Government Statement and there can be a debate. The Liberal Democrats are very impatient today but perhaps they will allow me to finish. There are opportunities for Wednesday debates and other debates. It is procedurally correct to table a "take-note" Motion, to which an amendment may be tabled. Nothing that has so far been said is procedurally incorrect.
Lord Brabazon of Tara: My Lords, I hope that the Government have agreed--I am convinced that they have--that there will be such a formal debate, to which any amendment can be tabled and voted on. We can therefore inform the Government at that time whether or not we approve of their policies.
We have asked the Government to think again about this matter and ensure that the details of the legislation are properly considered. I believe that that
is the role of this House. When last night I read the words of the Deputy Prime Minister, I was not remotely satisfied on that point. Having listened to the Minister today, I am much more reassured. The Minister has again stepped in to save the Deputy Prime Minister's bacon and clear up at least some of the mess that he has left behind.In the circumstances, I believe that we should give the noble Lord the opportunity to do that job, and not pursue something which, if we rejected these offers, might prove, as the noble Lord, Lord Richard, would say, to be a sterile confrontation between these two Houses. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, is it your Lordships' pleasure that the amendment be withdrawn?
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, the Question was that this House do not insist on its Amendment No. 27 to which the Commons have disagreed and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 27C, since when an amendment has been moved to leave out the words after "House" and insert "do insist on its Amendment No. 27". The Question is that this amendment be agreed to?
On Question, whether the said amendment (No. 27D) shall be agreed to?
4.7 p.m.
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 57; Not-Contents, 157.
Addington, L.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Dholakia, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Goodhart, L.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B. [Teller]
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Ludford, B.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shore of Stepney, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B. [Teller]
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Burns, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ferrers, E.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B. (Lord Privy Seal)
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laird, L.
Laming, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lichfield, Bp.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marsh, L.
Marshall of Knightsbridge, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renwick of Clifton, L.
Richard, L.
Rogan, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Shepherd, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stallard, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the negative, and Amendment No. 27D disagreed to accordingly.
4.16 p.m.
On Question, Amendment No. 27C agreed to.
28Clause 41 page 27, line 25, at end insert--
("( ) No approval of a transfer scheme shall be made under subsection (2) before the first Session of the next Parliament after that in which this Act is passed.")
The Commons disagreed with the Lords in their amendment but proposed the following amendment in lieu thereof--
28CPage 27, line 25, at end insert--
("( ) No approval may be given under this section before the end of the period of three months starting with the day on which this Act is passed.")
Lord Macdonald of Tradeston: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 28 to which the Commons have disagreed and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 28C in lieu thereof.
Moved, That the House do not insist on their Amendment No. 28 to which the Commons have disagreed and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 28C in lieu thereof.--(Lord Macdonald of Tradeston.)
[Amendment No. 28D not moved.]
On Question, Motion agreed to.
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