| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Buscombe: I apologise to the Minister for interrupting. He is giving a full and helpful reply. Can he confirm, for the assistance of all your Lordships, when he sees the Bill coming into force? That is important in relation to this point.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: We have a number of preparatory steps to make and there will be different commencement times for different parts of the Bill. It will certainly not be less than 18 months from now.
As I have said, there is a clear prospect under the Bill as drafted that existing casinos will become small or large casinos depending on their size. By the way, they have 10 or 15 machines at the moment, as the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe says; but there is nothing to stop them under grandfather rights from buying the shop next door or opening up another floor, and having more space for more machines within the 2:1 ratio. It would be dangerous and wrong, however, to prejudge the outcome of the testing period of the impact of the new casinos in a limited number of areas.
The second point is that the arrangements proposed in the amendments for deciding where the new casinos might be established, and how many there would be, might be arbitrary. There are huge difficulties which the amendments do not address. Supposing Hammersmith and Fulham or the City of London were to be designated as new permitted areas. What criteria should determine the number of casino licenses available there? It is one thing to look to an independent advisory panel to identify the right areas to test out new-style casinos—the task we are setting the advisory panel on a once-and-for-all basis—but another thing to expect the panel to undertake a permanent system of rationing. That is what these amendments do. It would be impossible to codify and police. We would be keeping exactly the elements of the present law—permitted areas and demand tests—which have proved the most unsatisfactory.
The third point is related to that: that the amendments maintain barriers to entry. British casinos have been talking about a level playing field. This is not a level playing field. These amendments would tilt the playing field permanently to the advantage of the existing casinos. They would have all the entitlements of the new-style casinos immediately, whereas potential newcomers would have to compete against each other for a rationed number of new licences, and to meet the costs of winning those competitions. That is not a sustainable position.
We do not want to freeze the number of casinos opening under the present law. It must be right to allow some natural growth in the market between now and the implementation of the Bill. We are proposing, subject to consultation, to make changes in planning use classes to guard against uncontrolled proliferation during the transitional period. In other words, we will need planning permission to open new casinos.
The amendments, however, would make the grandfather rights enjoyed by existing casinos far more valuable. There could be a huge surge in applications in order to get in under the wire. That would be
10 Mar 2005 : Column 985
thoroughly undesirable. It could risk creating exactly the proliferation of casino gambling which we want to avoid. The number of casinos, as I have said, could quickly double.
The fourth point is that the amendments propose the removal from the Bill of the category of large casinos. I find it strange that we have been criticised for departing in relatively modest ways from the advice of the scrutiny committee, but the Opposition are now proposing a much more radical departure.
I must say that I started by thinking that the removal of large casinos was a precautionary measure, because we are getting rid of the potential for 1,200 machines, but, if we look at it realistically, what it would achieve is not so much the removal of 1,200 machines but protection for the new, small casinos, which are the existing casinos plus some others. I do not find that an attractive prospect.
So I fear that, taken together, the amendments will not facilitate the development of a fair and open gambling market. They will place more emphasis on the protection of a small number of companies—basically, four companies—than on the protection of the public as a whole.
The Committee will think that I have been rather aggressive about that, I am sure, and I probably have, because I am really concerned about the protection of the public and avoiding proliferation and increases in problem gambling. But we have looked again at what can properly be done to recognise the legitimate interests of the established industry, and I have always, as I have today, praised it for having a good track record of responsibility and integrity.
In the first place, we have prepared Amendment No. 233, which is in the next group, which takes automated casino gaming tables of the kind now on offer in many casinos here, out of the definition of gaming machines. We think that that is right because there is a reasonable basis for distinguishing the equipment from gaming machines. That will also mean that casinos do not have to count those machines against their allowance of gaming machines. In other words, casinos will not be penalised for innovation.
Secondly, we think that it would now be reasonable, without weakening the overriding precautionary principle, to increase the entitlement to category B machines in existing casinos from 10 to 20. That is in addition to the reclassification of automated tables. By the way, that does not involve any change in the Bill.
If there is any requirement for it, we would be prepared to discuss some increase in the prizes—the maximum limit—for category B gaming machines. We could very well discuss that with the casino industry. Of course, any change of that sort would have to be very carefully monitored.
So I am not resisting without any possibility of change, discussion or negotiation, but I hope that the Committee will agree that the changes that I am
10 Mar 2005 : Column 986
talking about, together with the arguments against the amendments, go as far as it is reasonable and prudent to go in the direction of helping the casino industry but not gambling with the protection of the public. We are simply not willing to do that.
Lord Wade of Chorlton: Will the Minister confirm that there is no restriction on who applies for the eight, eight and eight, so that all UK companies, existing companies and new companies from around the world can apply?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes, of course, we have said that all along. We said it twice in the Statement on 16 December, although the British Casino Association advertisements claim that it was excluded. We said it twice in that Statement. That has always been the case, and I have made it clear, that those casinos have a very strong case for doing well, because they know the markets; they have the experience; they have the staff; and they certainly have the ability to raise the money for casinos of that kind. I think that they will have a very good business opportunity and they would be very unwise to throw that away by endangering the passage of the Bill.
Viscount Ullswater: Just for clarification, can an existing casino apply to become a new casino?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes. If there is an existing casino in an area identified by the advisory panel as, let us say, the location for a small casino, an existing casino could apply to become a small casino under the new legislation.
Lord Clement-Jones: I will read Hansard with considerable interest tomorrow. What the Minister had to say was welcome, in terms of the movement being made. I hope that degree of movement will be sufficient to reassure the established industry that it is not all doom and gloom where they are concerned.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: The first three pages of Clause 346 contain a long list of definitions. The Minister was searching for a phrase that could convey a high degree of probability with language taken from the betting field. I offer him "a racing certainty", but, more colourfully, I offer him the great words of Damon Runyon:
"It may be that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong—but that is the way to bet".
If he uses "Damon Runyon" as shorthand in future, we will all know what he means.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I will seek to avoid gambling analogies as fiercely as I do sporting analogies, because I do not understand them.
Baroness Buscombe: I made clear on Second Reading my understanding that the existing casino industry will be able to apply for the new licences. It is
10 Mar 2005 : Column 987
important to stress that. Notwithstanding that, I urge the Minister to think again about some of the issues we have debated this evening.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that these proposals require careful thought, particularly the latest proposed solution that gets rid of the large casinos. Neither the noble Lord, I suspect, nor I would wish to allow, albeit inadvertently, proliferation without care. We are simply looking for, as I put it carefully in my speech on Second Reading, a more equitable arrangement.
The noble Viscount, Lord Ullswater, referred to the removal of large casinos, and said we would not be piloting small ones. We do not need to pilot them, as we already have them, and I do not understand why we are doing so. Small casinos already exist.
These proposals involve significant hurdles. It is important to stress that we are talking about a different gambling experience when we talk about small casinos versus regional. I accept that this Bill means the membership rule will be dropped, there will be some freedoms to advertise, and the existing estate will be able to continue to trade as now. That continuation, however, will be limited to 10 machines. The Minister wants to test and evaluate carefully the effects of the eight, eight and eight pilots. We all accept that these new regional casinos will have some significant impact upon our culture. However, those in the existing estate, which have proved, over the last 40 years, that they are responsible businesses, are now saying that, as it stands, the Bill will freeze their position in time—or, as the Minister suggested, in concrete. I have sympathy with their view.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |