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Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, perhaps speaking more as a social security Minister than as a Treasury spokesman, I cannot agree that £2.9 billion is a trivial sum, even in the context of the European Union. But the noble Lord is absolutely right about the importance of the European Union. One of the reasons that we can make that contribution to the European Union budget to help its poorer members is that we run a successful and competitive economy. I only wish that
the Commission and the European Court of Justice would take that on board when they make their decisions.
Lord McNally: My Lords, has the Minister yet had an opportunity to read the speech by Mr. Niall FitzGerald, chief executive of Unilever and chairman of the CBI (Europe) Committee? At the CBI on Tuesday he made it clear that an overwhelming majority of the membership of the CBI see continuing membership of the European Union as essential to the prosperity of the British manufacturing industry. Surely those are the voices to which we should listen.
Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish: My Lords, indeed, I did notice that the CBI underlined the importance of our membership of the European Union. Perhaps I should draw attention also to the fact that it underlined the need for us to be competitive and not to be bound by restrictive labour laws emanating from the Commission.
Gulf War Veterans: Medical Assessments
3.14 p.m.
The Countess of Mar asked Her Majesty's Government:
- How they propose to trace all the members of Her Majesty's Armed Forces who served in Operation Granby and who may be ill as a result of exposure to organophosphate pesticides.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe): My Lords, we have urgently examined the medical records of those who have attended the Gulf Veterans' Medical Assessment Programme and have invited a small number who display certain symptoms to return for further assessment. We continue strongly to urge all Gulf veterans who believe they are ill as a result of their service in the Gulf to come forward for assessment if they have not already done so.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply. The noble Earl has never refuted my assertion that there is evidence that some 10,000 medical records have been wiped off the MoD computer. GPs are having considerable trouble in obtaining medical records for those who were members of Her Majesty's Armed Forces but who are no longer serving. Many of those men who were in tents rather than hotel accommodation will have been exposed to organophosphates. Will the Minister say how he proposes to trace them?
Earl Howe: My Lords, work is currently under way in the Ministry of Defence to determine how many of our servicemen were exposed to which organophosphate pesticides. We shall announce the results of our work as
soon as possible; but I am not yet in a position to provide a concrete answer to the noble Countess because the work is still being carried out.
Lord Burnham: My Lords, in the circumstances of the campaign and bearing in mind the urgency with which so much work was carried out, is it not the case that the information which the noble Countess requires is simply not available and cannot be obtained?
Earl Howe: My Lords, I am not nearly as pessimistic as my noble friend. We have a number of handles to pull in relation to the history. We believe that we are getting closer to the facts. It is to be regretted that we did not reach that stage earlier; but we are pursuing the work urgently and commensurately with the importance of the task in hand.
Lord Ashley of Stoke: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the Ministry of Defence deserves the heavy flak which it has received on this issue, especially from the Select Committee, which is exceptionally well-informed? Would it not be helpful to establish a veterans' association along the lines of that established in the United States which could help to locate those service personnel? Would the Government co-operate with such a body?
Earl Howe: My Lords, a department of veterans' affairs sounds wonderful until it is realised that it would simply add a layer of unnecessary bureaucracy to what is, I believe, a currently satisfactory system for meeting the needs of ex-servicemen and women. In the current situation, I do not believe that it would provide any added value at all because what matters is that the message that they should come forward for medical assessment should reach those who feel that they may be ill as a result of their service in the Gulf. I believe that that message has been well-publicised.
Lord Merlyn-Rees: My Lords, while the researches were taking place into this issue, did the Government find out who individually or what in the form of a body gave the silly instructions to spray those pesticides inside tents while men were sleeping there?
Earl Howe: My Lords, the facts as to what happened in the Gulf are emerging; and, as I said, we shall announce the results of our work on that matter in due course, and I hope quite shortly. But the noble Lord should not overlook the fact that in previous campaigns in the desert, many of our soldiers fell ill with one kind of disease or another. The Gulf conflict saw very much less suffering from diseases. That was a tribute to the care and protection given to the thousands of troops in theatre.
Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, the noble Earl will recall that the Government, his predecessor in office and himself denied that there was anything called Gulf War syndrome or that Gulf War syndrome existed. We now understand that the Government have changed their view. If you spend two-and-a-half years denying that
something exists, how can you then trace the people who you now admit are suffering from it? Will the noble Earl respond to the question of the noble Countess? Were 10,000 medical records wiped off the MoD computer?
Earl Howe: My Lords, my understanding of the last matter is that while certain records did go missing for reasons which hardly need spelling out but which have to do with the urgencies and exigencies of war, we believe that we have sufficient information at our disposal to assist those who come forward for examination. As I have said, a number have come forward.
As regards the first part of the question, there is still no clinical evidence from the assessments that we have done that UK Gulf personnel are suffering from a single medical condition or syndrome peculiar to Gulf service or any unexplained pattern of illness. However, we are determined to get to the bottom of this. I do not believe that anyone yet knows the answers. The research programme that we shall put in train will, I hope, get closer to the truth and we shall also make an announcement about that very shortly.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, is the Minister aware that I first started asking Questions about OPs in the Gulf because two years ago I was told that they were used out there? For two years I have had a list of OPs used by the Americans in their tented accommodation. It seems to me to be a terrible indictment on the MoD and a lack of care for the troops that the department should have denied for over two years that OPs were used, and that inquiries were not even made when I asked more than twice about OPs being used in the Gulf. I understand that Top Clip Gold Shield, which is a sheep dip, was taken out there. Were they going to spray the Iraqi sheep?
Earl Howe: My Lords, as I have indicated, it is obviously a matter of great regret that incorrect information was given both to Parliament and to the noble Countess. Indeed, no one regrets that fact more than I do. I can assure the noble Countess that the inquiries she made of Ministers were pursued. The answers that we received consistently were that organophosphates were not used in the Gulf, other than in very restricted circumstances on Iraqi prisoners. That information has turned out to be untrue. However, I stress that all previous statements by MoD Ministers have been made in good faith on the basis of the information available to them at the time.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, can the Minister explain whether what I thought he said was in fact what he did say; namely, that these substances were used on prisoners?
Earl Howe: My Lords, we have always been aware that a few Iraqi prisoners were treated with organophosphate compounds. However, we believed that that was the extent of the use of organophosphates.
However, we now believe that they were more widely used, and it is that more widespread use which is the subject of our current investigations.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, what does the Geneva Convention say about the use of toxic chemicals on prisoners?
Earl Howe: My Lords, if I may say so, I do not believe that that question advances the state of knowledge very much. We are talking about pesticides for the treatment of flies and lice, which is rather different from organophosphates which may be used in warheads.
Noise Act 1996: Implementation
3.22 p.m.
The Viscount of Falkland asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What minimum action should be expected from local councils by way of implementation of the Noise Act 1996.
The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, it is up to local authorities to determine how best to implement the Noise Act in their area.
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