| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
I am indebted to Mr David Ford for my final point. He will be surprised by that phrase, but that is by the way. He makes the point that if the proposed changes are revenue-neutral, Her Majesty’s Treasury should not object to a postponement. The reason for objecting to a postponement is the administrative difficulties, which leaves one with the mind-boggling suggestion that civil servants, for once, are unable to continue doing what they have been doing up until now. I have never encountered this situation before—it is truly remarkable—and I do not think it is a good enough reason for not allowing the democratic principle to apply.
That democratic principle is absolutely clear: the Minister is introducing this order without a single shred of democratic validity or authority for his proposal. The authority and democratic validity lies in the opposite direction, primarily with the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, which we will support.
I have spoken for much longer than I intended. Given the hour and the circumstances, the longer the debate goes on the fewer noble Lords there will be around to vote, so I will bring my remarks to a conclusion.
7.45 pm
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I ask the Minister two simple questions. First, why is it not possible for these amendments to be considered and implemented—or not—after the decision has been made by the Assembly about itself? Secondly, if the Government nevertheless intend to go ahead and make this law, what will be the position of the Assembly if it wishes to reverse it? What are the two legal situations?
Baroness Blood: My Lords, I feel I should make a few remarks in case folk in this House run away with the idea that everyone is on an increase. I find myself in a difficult position in regard to rates because my rates will almost halve; I am one person who will benefit. But that does not take away from the fact that I think this is completely unfair. I could give instance after instance of people who bought houses when the Troubles broke out and moved to what they thought were safe areas. Today they are chic areas and prices are sky high. Those people are living on the same income—they have been pensioners for years—and
7 Nov 2006 : Column 740
I cannot see the problem with the two amendments. I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, because it suggests working with the local parties and capping, but I also support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Smith. Why not just leave the matter to the local parties? We are constantly being told by the Secretary of State that this is just over the cusp; that we are just about to get an agreement. I think it would be good if locally elected people came on board and considered the matter. If they say the system is fair, people can kick them instead of us.
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, we have heard something about the figures and I am delighted to hear that the noble Baroness’s rates have gone down. But mine have gone up four times—of course I declare an interest—and they are now about five times as big as the Prime Minister’s. This is penalising some people. Of course I am one of them, but I am not the only one; I met someone at the airport today who has received an estimate of £9,000. This should bring it home that this will affect a number of people, some of whose incomes have not gone up and who do not have the money to sustain the increase.
Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, perhaps I may make a small contribution in regard to the report of the Joint Committee and not voting on orders. I believe that in years to come, if this order goes through, we will be looked upon as supine people who are looking after our own interests way beyond justice and mercy.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I shall do my best to answer all the points. I think the justice and mercy comes from establishing a fairer system. No one has referred to those who are paying a disproportionate amount at the present time simply because we are working on 1968 valuations. That is the reality of what we have got at the moment.
Perhaps I may respond a little more formally by using my notes—I did not use any notes when I spoke before—so that I get it right. I have indicated that the process has reached a critical stage and any delay, no matter how short—we have left this as late as we could in this Session, although I fully agree that the order could go over—would mean that it would not be possible to have the mechanisms in place. This was not done on the back of an envelope; we are dealing with 720,000 dwellings. The IT systems required by the Rate Collection Agency and the appointment of members of the valuation tribunals are all needed to implement these reforms. If we were unable to introduce the new system we would soldier on with the old system somehow, under which many people are paying a much greater share than they should be.
7 Nov 2006 : Column 741
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, will the Minister give way?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, perhaps I might finish this part and then I will give way. This relates to another point that was raised about a delay in the legislation.
A delay in the legislation will impact on the water and sewage reforms. While I could make the case—it is clear for everyone to see—the purpose of this is not to raise more revenue from dwellings. It will be used to deal with the water and sewage reforms. They are planned to come into operation next April, based on these modern valuations, not on the 1968 rateable valuations. Any delay in the introduction of those charges will lead to a big loss of revenue in Northern Ireland and reduce public service provision. There is a knock-on effect. That is happening this year, by the way: the water charges were supposed to be introduced earlier than last year. The budget for this year had a £50 hit on it because the Treasury assumed that we were raising the money with the water charges. We were not because they were tied up with this.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, this is one of the worst examples of democracy in Northern Ireland. Why did the Government proceed with the mechanisms for this new system of collecting local rates without parliamentary approval and come up with the excuse that we cannot vote against it because we have gone so far?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, this is not the first order. Other parts of the parliamentary process have been applied to this; it has not been done furtively. I did not make the case; the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, reminded us that the House of Commons approved the order. The idea that we are proceeding without parliamentary approval is nonsense. There has been more than one order associated with this change to get the process up and running and enable the figures to be produced, for a start. We approved an order in the summer that was tied in with this; it was made abundantly clear then that the next order would be the final piece of the jigsaw. So this is not out on its own, but there is a knock-on effect on water charges.
I should like to put these figures on the record just so that there is no misunderstanding. The average level of household taxation in the UK in 2006-07—the total household charge, which is the property charge and the water direct charge—is £1,350 in England; in Wales it is £1,126; in Scotland it is £1,253; and in Northern Ireland it is £668. There is a substantial difference; it is also shown if one takes out the water charge, which in England, Wales and Scotland averages £290.
The delay in the timing is important. Parliament has not been presented with a fait accompli, and this is not the first piece of the jigsaw. I hope that that point is accepted.
The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, asked a question that he had asked in Committee. Like most of these matters, it is not straightforward. Let me give the figures relating to housing benefit. At present, 25 per
7 Nov 2006 : Column 742
One problem is that we do not know—in a way, we cannot—the proportion of winners or losers who are on benefits. That information is not available. We can work out the information with regard to houses because we have the figures for house valuations, but it is not correct to state that all or most of the winners will be on benefits. They will not be, as I indicated in the example I gave.
There is something else I need to remind the House about, particularly those noble Lords who have declared their interest properly and will be paying more. There is a transitional relief which is not means-tested. It is a three-year process, which means that people will not pay more than a third of the increase in each of the years. The average award will be £178. Some 100,000 people will benefit from the transitional relief in 2007-08. It is not something we are doing willy-nilly.
The point about the Lyons inquiry was seductive. Everyone is waiting for the report. Sir Michael Lyons is reviewing the system of local government and local government finance in England. We have reviewed it in Northern Ireland. I fully admit that it was without a democratic mandate, although it started off with one. The options were disclosed and put in for debate by the democratic mandate before the Assembly was suspended. But Northern Ireland has reviewed its system of local government and local government finance. The system in Northern Ireland is pre-poll tax. There is bound to be unfairness in a system that uses 1968 valuations, so Lyons is not relevant to the situation in Northern Ireland.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, called this a modern window tax. I think that is a bit unfair. There has been no erosion of civil liberty. The powers of entry were never used. No one has had the inside of their house checked to see how good the decoration is. That is why there is a difference between capital value and market value. We have assumed that every property is in an average state of repair.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, that could change, I assume. The powers of entry are there.
Lord Rooker: The point is that it was not necessary, my Lords. We have assumed that the houses are in an average state of repair. Someone who buys a house in poor internal repair would, chances are, pay less for it than if it was in good repair. That is the norm. It is not a question of taxing people on a pretty property. There has been no need for entry into people’s houses.
I fully accept the point about the convention’s report. Published last Friday, it was an enormous tribute to the Members of both Houses and all parties who served on it. That will stand the test of time more than many of the other reports that discuss the relationship between the two Houses.
7 Nov 2006 : Column 743
I fully accept what the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, says. There is no democracy, there is direct rule—I cannot argue with that. But we have consistently said that, while Northern Ireland politicians refuse to take up their responsibility as elected representatives, we will not slow the pace of reform. Indeed, we said that we would speed up reform over the whole gamut of life in Northern Ireland.
In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Park, as soon as the Assembly is back, it is completely in charge. If everything goes according to plan, the Assembly will come back on 26 March and it will be immediately in control. It is true that this system will be introduced in April. If the Assembly so chooses, it can abolish the lot on 26 March next year. It would have to have an alternative for collecting the money because of the budget allowances, but it will be in total control. Devolution means what it says—the politicians will be back in charge. There is provision even in this order for them to adjust certain things, such as introducing a cap. Under that provision, they can give other concessions. They will have complete control—there is nothing left at the centre. If they want to abolish the system three or four days before it is introduced, they can, but they still need to raise the money somehow, otherwise there will be a hole in the budget. But it is their responsibility completely.
I say to the noble Lord whose rates will go up by about 40 per cent that he will not pay 40 per cent extra the first year because he will benefit from the transitional allowance. I have answered the question of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, about the Joint Committee.
I realise that I will not satisfy everybody; it is just not possible. However, even when people have argued against me, nobody has had what I would call the political courage to stand up and say, “I want what is quite clearly an unfair system to carry on”. It is unfair, because it is based on 1968 valuations. It does not matter what has happened in the past couple of years or the past 10 years, the distortions are enormous. We are saying to people, “I think you should pay a bigger share of local rates than others, based on valuations which are nearly 40 years old”. We have to be serious about this. You cannot make the case for paying rates based on a system that is 40 years old. That is why no one does so. I see that a noble Lord is prepared to stand up and try. I congratulate him.
8 pm
Lord Trimble: My Lords, perhaps I may respectfully suggest to the Minister that he stops misleading the House. He is setting up a straw man which he then knocks down. I made it clear that we would have had change. In fact, we started change; I started it. We knew that there had to be change. However, it is perfectly open to us to say that this is not the end result that we want.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, it is perfectly open to the noble Lord to say that, but if a hole in the budget results from it, it is incumbent on him to say what he would do. One cannot simply say, “No, we don’t like
7 Nov 2006 : Column 744
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving way. He will remember that this Motion is budget neutral. There is no cash to be found.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, it is budget neutral for the property rates—I have made that clear. It is not designed to raise money. The water charges are a quite separate issue.
I conclude because I shall convince some noble Lords but not others. I realise the force of the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran. He said that the order is not democratic and that it is unfair. He made a case, as a case can be made—it is a political judgment—but after four years of research, six years after the start of the process, and 32 weeks at least of various consultations, we have a difficulty. The noble Lord will say that if a Conservative Government return, they will do certain things. That is their choice; that is where the power lies. If the Assembly is in existence, it is wholly within its power to change the system if it so wishes. As I said to the noble Baroness, it will be in charge.
However, we want to ameliorate the system where we can at the edges, so that there is perceived to be less unfairness in what is proposed. I have said that we want a fairer system. The noble Lord’s amendment proposes the setting of a valuation cap. I suppose that we may call it the prime ministerial figure. I did not use that phrase; I am only quoting what has been said in this House—I would not dream of making a comparison between the Prime Minister’s properties, although others have. In the spirit of not wanting my Prime Minister to be challenged in that way, we recognise that there is a seductive argument for setting a cap. I have said that pensioners near the margin will benefit, because we have raised the housing benefit limits—we would be prepared to look even beyond that. Money—it is a modest amount—can be found to meet the pensioners’ situation. I am therefore prepared to recommend to my noble friends that we accept entirely the noble Lord’s amendment and attach it to the government Motion. Therefore, the Motion would contain not only my words—one normally says, “Believe the Minister because it is in Hansard”. If we put the Motion as amended to the House, it will become part of the parliamentary process and that will be the Motion which the House agrees. It calls quite specifically for a cap. It states that we have to work with the political parties in Northern Ireland and find more money for pensioners at the margin. On that basis, I commend my Motion, with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, attached to it word for word, to the House.
7 Nov 2006 : Column 745
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, I recognise a pincer movement when I see one in this new, unholy alliance between the two Front Benches. I am grateful to noble Lords from all sections of the House who have supported my Motion. I complimented the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, on his robust ministerial energy. He has maintained that energy physically, but, mentally, he has been flagging. There was a series of non-sequiturs and misrepresentations in what he said, and I suggest that he has a good rest.
I take exception to his saying that I did not stand up and say that the changes should not happen. That is what my amendment is about: they should not happen. His claim that I have been going on for so many years is grist to my mill. What is another year? He used the argument of the imperatives of administrative convenience—the arguments of raison d’état. If the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, is gullible enough to believe that the state will be so magnanimous when he comes to incorporate his suggestions, he may well find himself disabused.
There was the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, on his bobsleigh, racing for the final line. Then, as I knew, because he was under instructions, he pulled the race. All the arguments that he made supported my Motion. His skid at the end when he crashed is unbelievable. For that reason, I shall test the mood of the House.
8.06 pm
On Question, Whether the said amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 62; Not-Contents, 124.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blood, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Burnett, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Falkender, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Garden, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
James of Blackheath, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laird, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mawhinney, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Monson, L.
Morrow, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Smith of Clifton, L.
Southwell and Nottingham, Bp.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Tope, L.
Trimble, L.
Tyler, L.
7 Nov 2006 : Column 746
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Acton, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. [Lord President.]
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bilston, L.
Borrie, L.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Corston, B.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ford, B.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |