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As I have said, the effect of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, was probably not exactly what he had in mind. To quote from his contribution to the debate:
“The Minister made a serious point, with a degree of tentativeness, about what this would do to the status of the employees. I am sure I speak for the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, as well as myself in saying that, if that is the case, we would accept without demur an amendment at the final stage of this Bill that made it clear that the status of employees was unchanged”.—[Official Report, 12/10/05; col. 327.]
That is precisely what our amendment aims to achieve: to make clear that the commission’s staff are to remain in the Home Civil Service. Our amendment is a common provision which is used in other legislation establishing non-ministerial government departments—for example, the legislation which established the Food Standards Agency. It does not mean that the Minister for the Civil Service will be involved in the determination of
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Finally, I repeat the most important point in this debate: that the Bill places the commission, for all purposes to do with the exercise of its regulatory functions, wholly outside ministerial control in both fact and appearance. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, for his contribution in that debate, which enabled me to move this amendment—unchallenged, I am sure.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 100.—(Lord Bassam of Brighton.)
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: My Lords, as the Minister said, we return to familiar territory: the independence of the Charity Commission. Concern was expressed during the earlier stages of the Bill that, given the greatly increased power of the Charity Commission, it is important that it be properly insulated from political pressure from any part of the political spectrum. I am the first to recognise that the Government made a major step with the insertion of subsection (4), which the Minister read out a few moments ago. I am sure the whole House is grateful to them for that.
However, in paragraph 5 of Schedule 1, there are what could be regarded by the suspicious—some might say, the paranoid—as weasel words that the appointment of other staff requires the approval of the Minister as to their terms and conditions of service. There was concern that it would be said that the Charity Commission is independent, but it would be told how it is going to make appointments and how much it will pay and therefore the effectiveness and work of the commission could be shaded and guided by use of paragraph 5 of Schedule 1, which is headed “Staff”. While the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and I could see the force of the argument about approval of the chief executive’s pay and rations, the argument for controlling the terms and conditions of all other staff did not hold water for me.
The amendment on which I supported the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, was to establish a cap on the total remuneration—clearly, we could not hand away the pen and the chequebook—but leave the detail to the commission. Strangely enough, that is what the Minister says the present amendment does, but it does not quite say that. Our wording makes that much clearer than his amendment does. It states:
“The terms and conditions of service of persons appointed under sub-paragraph (1) are to be such as the Commission may determine with the approval of the Minister for the Civil Service”.
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That is not, “Here’s the overall cap, you get on with it”; it could be, “Bring us a list of all the people, and we will see what their pay and rations are”. I was very reassured by the Minister’s words from the Dispatch Box, but I was rather less reassured by the way they tied in with the amendment. What he said seemed to me to fit much more happily with the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and me, which is in the Bill at present.
I accept that the Minister is a man of honour, and I am sure that he is telling me exactly how the situation is going to work out in future. I am sure that there are some deficiencies in the drafting of the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and I tabled, which was passed at the last stage, but it will be helpful if, one last time before we wave goodbye to this clause, he could give us a final word or two of reassurance that the wording in my amendment, which matches his words, cannot be used and that we have to have this amendment, which still leaves the slightly uneasy feeling that a determined Minister at some date in the future could grab the powers and influence the commission in a way that all sides of the House agree would be undesirable.
Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, the Minister spoke about my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury, and I think it is an appropriate time to pay tribute to him, particularly to his tremendous service in charitable endeavours and in assisting those involved in them. However, I thought, “He’ll not get away with this one”, and that is how it has turned out. One of the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips—and we hear that the staff are concerned the other way—was that good people arrive at the Charity Commission, but they do not last long because the salary regime is not sufficient compared to other fields. That was one of his concerns, and it is interesting that the commission not being thoroughly part of the Home Civil Service leads staff to worry in the other direction. It was interesting to hear the Minister’s comments and his absolute assurance that, in this, independence is crucial and supreme.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the debate we had on this matter was important, and we should remind ourselves of its outlines. I can only repeat—perhaps with extra emphasis—that we value the independence of the commission, which is essential. We believe it is there in fact, and I dispute some of the interpretation of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson. I thought I made clear how we see the situation, particularly with regard to pay and conditions, which commission staff, in the main, are very happy with. They were certainly unhappy about the prospect of being outside the Home Civil Service. They were not too chuffed about that idea at all, and were somewhat horrified when they discovered what the effect of the amendment might be. We gave a lot of thought to the legal status of the commission, and we came up with what we thought was most appropriate and would work best. Earlier, I made a comparison with the Food Standards Agency, which is, perhaps, the closest comparison we can come up with among regulators. I do not hear too many complaints about that organisation’s independence, and I know that people greatly value the way in which it works.
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Of course, it is never an entirely closed story, and there is an opportunity to review the way in which the Bill works. I am sure that noble Lords will not have missed the importance of Clause 72, which requires the commission’s status as a government department to be considered as part of the review of the impact of the legislation. A person must be appointed to carry out the review within five years of the Bill receiving Royal Assent, and that issue will be reported and laid before Parliament for further discussion and consideration. It might be that in four or five years’ time, people will take a different view about the way in which the commission operates and, as a Government, we would be foolish to ignore criticism at that stage. We will judge any case for a change in the status of the commission on its merits. However, a coherent alternative has not been presented to us. We think that what we have designed works well in legislative terms and, important though this debate on independence has been, we have something that has worked well and will work well in future. I hope with that the noble Lord will feel happier and will not oppose this amendment.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
101: Schedule 4, page 101, line 40, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
102: Page 101, line 47, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 101 and 102.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
104: Page 104, line 34, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
105: Schedule 6, page 108, line 4, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
106: Page 108, line 37, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
107: Page 108, line 39, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
108: Page 109, line 30, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
109: Page 110, line 19, leave out “company” and insert “charity”
110: Page 112, line 33, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
111: Page 114, line 16, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
112: Schedule 7, page 115, line 23, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
113: Page 117, line 4, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
114: Page 118, line 29, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
115: Page 119, line 44, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
116: Page 121, line 6, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
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117: Page 124, line 35, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
118: Page 125, line 32, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
119: Page 128, line 28, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
120: Page 129, line 5, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “Minister”
121: Page 131, line 10, leave out “of the Secretary of State”
122: Schedule 8, page 133, line 17, at end insert-
“Police, Factories, &c. (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1916 (c. 31)
14A (1) Section 5 of the Police, Factories, &c. (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1916 (regulation of street collections) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1) for “the benefit of charitable or other purposes,” substitute “any purposes in circumstances not involving the making of a charitable appeal,”.
(3) In paragraph (b) of the proviso to subsection (1) omit the words from “, and no representation” onwards.
(4) In subsection (4) before the definition of “street” insert-
““charitable appeal” has the same meaning as in Chapter 1 of Part 3 of the Charities Act 2006;””
123: Page 136, line 13, at end insert-
“Recreational Charities Act 1958 (c. 17)
37A In section 6 of the Recreational Charities Act 1958 (short title and extent) for subsection (2) substitute-
“(2) Section 1 of this Act, as amended by section of the Charities Act 2006, has the same effect in relation to the law of Scotland or Northern Ireland as section of that Act has by virtue of section (3) to (3C) of that Act.
(3) Sections 1 and 2 of this Act, as in force before the commencement of section of that Act, continue to have effect in relation to the law of Scotland or Northern Ireland so far as they affect the construction of any references to charities or charitable purposes which-
(a) are to be construed in accordance with the law of England and Wales, but
(b) are not contained in enactments relating to matters of the kind mentioned in section (3A) or (3C) of that Act.”.”
124: Page 138, line 24, at end insert-
“Sex Discrimination Act 1975 (c. 65)
In section 21A of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 (public authorities) in paragraph 14 in the Table of Exceptions in subsection (9), for “Charity Commissioners for England and Wales” substitute “Charity Commission”.”
125: Page 143, leave out lines 21 to 29
126: Page 144, line 9, at end insert-
“(1A) In subsection (1) after the definition of “institution” insert-
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““the Minister” means the Minister for the Cabinet Office;”.”
127: Page 144, line 31, at end insert-
“91A In section 79 (short title, commencement and extent) omit-
(a) in subsection (6), the words “(subject to subsection (7))”, and
91B In Schedule 7 (repeals) omit the entry relating to the Police, Factories, &c. (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1916 (c. 31).”
128: Page 144, line 33, at end insert-
“92A In the heading for Part 1, for “CHARITY COMMISSIONERS” substitute “CHARITY COMMISSION”.”
129: Page 145, line 32, leave out “COMMISSION’S”
6.45 pm
Lord Bassam of Brighton My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 104 to 129.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
130: Page 146, line 32, leave out paragraph 99 and insert-
“99 For section 10 substitute-
“10 Disclosure of information to Commission
(1) Any relevant public authority may disclose information to the Commission if the disclosure is made for the purpose of enabling or assisting the Commission to discharge any of its functions.
(2) But Revenue and Customs information may be disclosed under subsection (1) only if it relates to an institution, undertaking or body falling within one (or more) of the following paragraphs—
(b) an institution which is established for charitable, benevolent or philanthropic purposes;
(c) an institution by or in respect of which a claim for exemption has at any time been made under section 505(1) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988;
(d) a subsidiary undertaking of a charity;
(e) a body entered in the Scottish Charity Register which is managed or controlled wholly or mainly in or from England or Wales.
(3) In subsection (2)(d) above “subsidiary undertaking of a charity” means an undertaking (as defined by section 259(1) of the Companies Act 1985) in relation to which—
(a) a charity is (or is to be treated as) a parent undertaking in accordance with the provisions of section 258 of, and Schedule 10A to, the Companies Act 1985, or
(b) two or more charities would, if they were a single charity, be (or be treated as) a parent undertaking in accordance with those provisions.
(4) For the purposes of the references to a parent undertaking—
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(a) in subsection (3) above, and
(b) in section 258 of, and Schedule 10A to, the Companies Act 1985 as they apply for the purposes of that subsection,
“undertaking” includes a charity which is not an undertaking as defined by section 259(1) of that Act.
10A Disclosure of information by Commission
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