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Government of Wales Bill
3.45 pm
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments and reasons be now considered.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The page and line references are to HL Bill 81 as first printed for the Lords.]
(a) who is included on any other list submitted for the Assembly electoral region or any list submitted for another Assembly electoral region,(b) who is an individual candidate to be an Assembly member for the Assembly electoral region or another Assembly electoral region,(c) who is a candidate to be the Assembly member for an Assembly constituency which is not included in the Assembly electoral region, or24 July 2006 : Column 1552
- (6) A person may
not be an individual candidate to be an Assembly member for the
Assembly electoral region if he is-
- 3A: Because it is
not desirable that, at any election of Assembly members, a person
should be both a candidate to be an Assembly constituency member and a
candidate to be an Assembly regional
member
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on its Amendment No. 3, to which the Commons have disagreed for their reason 3A.
Since your Lordships’ House last debated this Bill, the Government have come forward with a package of amendments that I hope will form the basis of a cross-party consensus to achieve Royal Assent before the Recess. The package of amendments addresses a number of concerns quite properly raised by noble Lords during previous debates on the Bill. The arrangements for the composition of committees have been changed to make it clearer that the d’Hondt formula will be used only as a fallback if cross-party agreement cannot be reached. Concessions have also been agreed on the membership of the Assembly commission and the name of the Audit Committee. The debates on the details of the Bill have now been had. I hope that we can all join together to make the new powers work, rather than continuing to pursue old arguments.
The Bill’s passage and the success of the Assembly’s new powers rest in your Lordships’ hands today. If the Bill is delayed until the autumn, it will have to compete for scarce parliamentary time with other major legislation in the spillover. A delay would also condense into a dangerously short timescale a number of interdependent preparations that need to be made to implement the Bill; for example, the preparation of the new standing orders and a number of major pieces of secondary legislation, including the elections order, the disqualifications order, and the Schedule 7 amendment order. Unless the Assembly is able to start these preparations now, the success of the Assembly’s transition to the new powers could well be put in jeopardy. That is a view held not only by the Government but by the Assembly’s Presiding Officer, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and a former leader of Plaid Cymru, Dafydd Wigley. I am delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, in his place as—I hope—we complete this Bill.
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It is in that context that we consider the proposal in the Bill to put the voters back in charge by banning dual candidacy. The dual candidacy ban was an explicit manifesto commitment. Our 2005 general election manifesto stated that we would prevent candidates standing both on the list and in a constituency, in order to make all candidates genuinely accountable to the electorate, and to end Assembly Members being elected via the back door even when they have already been rejected by voters. That is a clear commitment from a manifesto that we took to the country last May and on the basis of which we won a resounding victory, both in Wales and in the rest of the country. Both Houses have considered the matter at length and the proposal was supported by considerable majorities in the other place.
There can be no question at all of the Government giving way on this issue. The ban on dual candidacy will strengthen the integrity of the Assembly’s electoral system and the legitimacy of regional Assembly Members. It will put voters in charge by enabling them to reject a candidate who can currently get in through the back door despite being rejected by the voters. I appreciate that the issue has aroused strong feelings, but we have a convention in this House that we do not stand in the way of a manifesto commitment of a democratically elected Government. To insist on this amendment would not only be a clear breach of that convention; it would put at risk everything else that the Bill seeks to achieve.
As the Liberal Democrat Assembly Member Peter Black has said, opposition to the proposed ban on dual candidacy is a,
Mr Black is no fan of the proposed ban, but on that point I believe that he is entirely correct.The Government have accepted a number of improvements proposed by noble Lords, and are seeking to move forward on the basis of consensus. The ban on dual candidacy is a manifesto commitment, and I hope that noble Lords will recognise that so that we can all join together in the interests of Wales.
Moved, That the House do not insist on its Amendment No 3, to which the Commons have disagreed for their reason numbered 3A.—(Lord Evans of Temple Guiting.)
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, I begin by thanking the Government for accepting the thrust of our amendments on the composition and membership of the Assembly commission, Assembly committees and the title of the Audit Committee. These amendments were supported in the Division Lobby by substantial majorities of your Lordships and were clearly worthy of further consideration by the Government. We also had a new Welsh language clause, thanks mainly to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies.
I am happy to acknowledge the Secretary of State’s rather negative but nevertheless welcome appreciation of our efforts when he said in the other place last Tuesday that he was,
24 July 2006 : Column 1554
- “not seeking
to deny that there have been real improvements to the Bill as a result
of debates and arguments in the Lords and the amendments that have been
moved there”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/7/06;
col.
192.]
We can safely claim to have thrown some light on a few of the darker corners of the Bill and to have properly done our job of scrutinising it. Of course, we regret that the Government did not accept more of the amendments that your Lordships supported. One of them, which the noble Lord mentioned, preserved the dual candidacy system introduced by the Government in the Government of Wales Act 1998. That system has served Wales reasonably well in two Assembly elections. The prohibition of such candidacies under the present Bill has been roundly criticised by a string of authoritative bodies from the Electoral Commission to the Arbuthnott commission. Robert Hazell, the authoritative director of the constitution unit of University College London, described it as,
The change is undoubtedly partisan in that it is an attempt to protect the interests of the sitting constituency Members against the rivalry of regional list members. It is not irrelevant that all Labour members of the Assembly are constituency members and none regional list members. Whether the prohibition will succeed in improperly protecting sitting constituency Members remains to be seen. What it will do, as Arbuthnott pointed out, is,Political parties will have to find more candidates and this increase may affect quality.Nevertheless, the fact has to be faced that the political parties in Wales have already reconciled themselves to the requirements of this legislation even before its passage into law and are already appointing candidates to contest the Assembly election next May. There is therefore not much practical point in pursuing our amendment. However, we remain of the view that the Government were wrong to make the change that they have done for the reasons that they made it. It was not justified, except in terms of very dubious party political advantage. I do not propose to suggest to my colleagues on these Benches that we support the Government; I suggest that they abstain.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I apologise for not being here when the debate started, but it started 25 minutes early, which is very good. At this moment, I should be a steward in the Royal Welsh Show, taking around overseas judges to judge educational stands—20 in all—but government business managers have decided that I must be here today. Of course, this is very important legislation for Wales, and I could not possibly be anywhere else on this occasion.
Motion A,
resisting Amendment No. 3, is one of the key issues that we have
debated in the Bill. We find
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As the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, said, the Electoral Commission is among those who have criticised this most vociferously. In its submission to the Welsh Affairs Committee, which was looking at this system, it was not convinced at all of the need for a change. Also, the Electoral Reform Society has condemned it as not appropriate for the situation in Wales. None the less, the clock is ticking, and there are matters in the Bill, particularly the possibility of getting primary legislative powers in due course, that are too important to ignore. We have to look at this overall, but we can say that we are most unsatisfied with the electoral system. In the other place, our Members voted against it, and that is the elected House. Here, we must come to some kind of agreement.
It is with a heavy heart that I look at this modification. The Minister will know that we proposed the single transferable vote as our preferred system, which was also the recommended, preferred system of the Richard commission. The Government will not accept that, one might suggest, because there are divisions of opinion in the Labour Party about one or two of the aspects. I do not want to go on for a long time about that; we have had that debate. We will look at this as a final act that may come back to haunt the Labour Party in due course.
Lord Elis-Thomas: My Lords, I declare an interest as the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales. I apologise for my absences, which were in pursuit of that function, at a time when the political situation in the Assembly is of some interest to noble Lords. I apologise that I was not able to take part in the early debates. I thank all noble Lords who have participated, especially those who kindly referred to some of my remarks in my absence. I have been very well represented on earth by my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Livsey. I, too, should have been at the Royal Welsh, but we look forward to being there tomorrow.
I also thank the Government for the way in which they have compromised on the package of issues. I may say something later, on Motion C, about committee structure. However, as regards this issue, I am still of the view philosophically that it is wrong. I have concerns about its implications, but I am prepared to vote for it because it is more important that we get on with the Bill, for the reasons that the Minister indicated.
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4 pm
Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, I shall make a few brief points; if it is of any comfort to the Minister, I do not intend to say anything on the later Motions.
In another place, the Government provided two reasons for us giving way on this issue, and the Minister repeated them this afternoon. His first reason was that the timetable made it essential that the measure go forward this afternoon, so that Royal Assent could be obtained before we rose. Ministers should never advance that argument, because they establish the timetable by which Bills are brought before Parliament; if it were so vital that the legislation should receive Royal Assent, they should have arranged for the Bill to come before both Houses in enough time for the debate to be carried through to its proper conclusion. There seem to be only two possible alternative reasons for their having got us into this situation: that it was intentional, so that they could blackmail the House and say, “You simply have to agree or we won’t get Royal Assent”; or that it was the result of incompetence. I will leave it to noble Lords to decide which, but I do not think it worthy of Ministers to treat Parliament in this way.
The second main argument advanced in another place, and again by the Minister this afternoon, was about the manifesto commitment and the Salisbury convention. I have spoken on the future of the Salisbury convention not just in debates on the Bill, but when we considered procedural matters and in a separate debate. The whole issue has been well set out in a major paper, which is in the Library. It is clear that we will have to give further consideration to the Salisbury convention, which, after all, had its origins in a wholly different situation. I am particularly concerned about its application when we are dealing with manifesto commitments on electoral matters. Manifestos are usually lengthy documents not read by the electorate, except sixth formers under instruction on how the constitution works, and it seems a dangerous principle to advance that we are bound in Parliament to observe the will of the elected Government because they mentioned a matter in a manifesto. That would enable a political party to change the electoral system to its advantage and prevent Parliament blocking the proposal.
The change proposed on this occasion may not be felt to be of such significance that Parliament and this House should stand and fight, but one can imagine circumstances in which a proposal to change the electoral system should be resisted by this House. I want to record that I do not think that this occasion establishes a precedent. We should not accept that the Salisbury convention and manifesto commitments always bind this House to accept any proposal by Government to change electoral arrangements. That would be wholly improper.
As my noble friend
said, it was also argued that all the political parties in the Assembly
had already acted on the basis that the Bill would pass therefore there
was no point in going back on it at present, or at least that it would
cause a good deal of inconvenience to do so. But the political parties
have noted that the Government were determined to get their way on this
24 July 2006 : Column 1557
I was fascinated to hear the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, because, having read the debates in another place, my understanding was that the Liberal Democrats and the Government had reached a deal on the Bill: because of the need to get it through without further delay, and the concessions mentioned by the Minister, the Liberal Democrats would not stand and fight on this issue. However, the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, said that the Bill was very unsatisfactory and repeated many of the arguments advanced by his party in earlier debates. After all, his party, along with all the opposition parties, voted against the measure in the Welsh Assembly—as they did earlier in our proceedings.
I find it bizarre that the Liberal Democrats decided not to stand and fight on this issue. It makes it impossible for the rest of us to do so, because we all know that, without their support, there would be no chance of winning the vote and sending the amended legislation back to another place. The Liberal Democrats have sold a pass on it; that is a great pity.
Having made those points, I accept that we must now agree to this highly unsatisfactory measure. I do not withdraw a single word of the criticisms that I uttered against it on previous occasions; they have been well summed up by my noble friend on the Front Bench.
I shall make only two further comments. First, as I do not intend to speak again this afternoon, I take this opportunity to thank both noble Lords who have spoken for the Government on this matter for the patience and courtesy with which they have responded to our thorough examination of this Bill. I do not apologise for that thorough examination; that is the job of this House, and we have obtained some notable improvements.
I wish the Assembly every good fortune in the period ahead and hope that it serves the people of Wales well. I hope that we do not come to regret any part of this Bill, and that we can feel that at least we have taken a step forward for the benefit of the Welsh people.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I agreed with so much of what the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, said that I was sorry that towards the end of his contribution he chose to attack the Liberal Democrats for inconsistency. We have been consistent on devolution since the first part of the 20th century and we have done everything in our power to advance that cause. When one considers the noble Lord’s approach to devolution, given that he opposed it when he was Secretary of State, if the right reverend Prelate will forgive me, Damascus and conversion come to mind.
Lord Crickhowell: My Lords, I merely observe that St Paul’s contribution after his conversion was pretty notable.
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Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, it was almost as notable as the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, to this debate.
We do not like the concept of the abolition of dual candidacy. When the Government of Wales Bill first came before this House—I was the main spokesman for my party on it—we of course proposed proportional representation by the single transferable vote method, which the Richard commission said was the way forward, but we accepted the regional list as a measure that was heading in the right direction. At that time—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, will recall this—we were all of the view that Members of the Welsh Assembly would be indistinguishable whether they were regional list members or constituency members: they would all be regarded as Members of the Welsh Assembly who were doing their best for Wales.
It is unhappily the case that the electoral arithmetic has worked out so that Labour Members are constituency members and members of other parties—very many but by no means all of them—are regional members. They all started on a level playing field when the Assembly came into being and each of them had a reputation to make. One feels that behind the abolition of dual candidacy is the fear of Welsh Labour constituency members of the Assembly—certainly the weaker ones—that those regional list members who have made their reputation will oust them from their seats. As the noble Lords, Lord Roberts and Lord Crickhowell, and my noble friend Lord Livsey said, the Welsh Labour Party has played purely a political game with the electoral arrangements. It is not right that we should have this presented to us, as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, said a moment ago, as something that we must accept because it was tucked into the Welsh part of the Labour manifesto during the previous election.
The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has now been converted to speak against the Salisbury convention. He may recall, as other noble Lords will do, that the very first act of the leader of my party in this House in the Queen’s Speech debate following the election was to say that we did not regard ourselves as ever having been bound by the Salisbury convention. We were not party to it in 1946; the conditions had completely changed and we would not accept it for a moment as an argument. The noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, made the very important point that the danger lies in electoral politics. Although this deals with the Welsh Assembly, it is a very short step to interfering with how Westminster representatives are elected by tucking a similar proposal somewhere in the small print of a manifesto and relying on it at a later stage in relation to this House.
This party will abstain on this Motion because we want the Bill to be enacted but that does not for a moment minimise our hostility to the concept of the amendment—that is, the concept that dual candidacy is to be abolished—and it does not mean that we accept for a moment the validity of the Salisbury convention.
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Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, spoke about the Government’s motivation having a somewhat partisan spirit. I should like to correct him on at least one matter: not, I hope, in a partisan spirit but in the spirit of historical accuracy. He said that his party was from the beginning of the previous century in favour of devolution. That clearly prompts the question why, when his party had the ability to do something about this—that is, when it was in power before the First World War—it did nothing.
I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, paid tribute to the generosity of the Government’s response to the debate. There clearly has been a remarkable debate and very valuable changes have been made in the course of it. I am also pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is at last here: he speaks far better in his own right than when others purport to speak on his behalf. We should always listen with great respect to what is said by the Assembly.
On dual candidacy, the assumption is that we have so much political talent in Wales that it does not matter if those who lose out in marginal seats are out of power for at least four years. But our pool of talent is not so great that we can afford to dispense with their talent, and I guess that there will be a danger of unintended consequences in that people will be reluctant to take on marginal seats on the constituency basis.
I follow the Government for a number of reasons. First, this was a manifesto commitment—not to be followed slavishly but to be followed in cases such as this. Secondly, this House should be reluctant to interpose its view on election matters in relation to the elected Chamber. Thirdly, we have gone over this course so often that I think it gives democracy a bad name when losers become winners. Therefore, I shall support the Government today without hesitation.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked why, at the beginning of the last century, the Liberal Party did not move ahead with Welsh home rule. He may remember the great dispute regarding Irish home rule, which took precedence. The first measure was proposed in 1913 by ET John, a Liberal MP who later joined the Labour Party. But then we had the First World War and, after that, the Liberal Party was not in any position to move forward. However, I should like to know when the Conservative Party has ever proposed a devolution measure for a Parliament or Assembly for Wales. I do not recall that happening. I can go through manifestos and candidates’ election addresses but there will be no mention of it at all.
Does the Salisbury
convention tie the Government and the Conservative Party to supporting
not only measures in the UK-wide manifesto but also those in Welsh or
Scottish manifestos? As we are talking about an election to a United
Kingdom Parliament, I suggest that the only commitments to which any
party is bound are those in a UK manifesto, not those in a
24 July 2006 : Column 1560
- “In Wales we
will develop democratic devolution by creating a stronger Assembly with
enhanced legislative powers and a reformed structure and electoral
system to make the exercise of Assembly responsibilities clearer and
more accountable to the
public”.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I know that my noble friend on the Front Bench is getting restive—I detect that from the back of his neck. He obviously wants to get on with the debate, but perhaps he will allow me to say two or three words as I have been involved in this exercise for a considerable time.
I think that, however one looks at it, on the whole one should support the structure proposed in the Bill. It gives increased legislative competence to the Assembly and that is the object of the exercise. The whole thrust of the report of the commission which I had the honour to chair was that more power needed to be devolved to Cardiff and that it should have the power to legislate directly in certain areas.
The Government have come up with a set of proposals which, I am bound to say, I find complicated and complex. But if they can do what the Government claim they can, that will go a very long way towards implementing exactly what the commission recommended and was in favour of. The danger in the proposed procedures is that the relationship between the request by the Assembly and its consideration by Westminster is still unclear. I do not know what that relationship will be. How will it work? One has to hope that, although the devil is in the detail, perhaps there is a bit of virtue as well, and that once it has bedded down and been given the opportunity to work, one will achieve the Government’s objective of greater legislative competence in Cardiff.
I would not claim that this is a good Bill; I could not do that because it does not do what we are recommending. When the White Paper first came out, I said that in all the circumstances I would give the Government a B+; I would not give them an A. That is still my position. It is a respectable B+; in university terms, it is a respectable 2:1. It is not quite a first, but it steps in the right direction, so for that reason we should support it.
Lord
Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am grateful
to all noble Lords who have contributed to this 35-minute
debate—or 30 minutes, taking off my introduction. I do not plan
to answer the points made. However, I must say to the noble Lord, Lord
Roberts of Llandudno, that the Labour Party does not have a UK
manifesto. We have one for England, Wales and Scotland. The commitment
to reform the
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I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, for his generous remarks, but not so grateful to him for introducing the debate on the Salisbury convention, which looked as though it would dominate the discussion. It was good to hear from my noble friend Lord Richard, the chairman of the committee that produced the Richard report. With my academic record, a B+ would have been a brilliant result. I beg to move.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
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