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Lord Adonis: My Lords, as I said, we hope to publish the report shortly, together with a full statement of government policy in response to it. The issues raised are very grave.
Eleanor Stobart, the independent consultant who wrote the report, held discussions with social workers, teachers, police officers, voluntary workers and others with knowledge of the subject. She also collected and examined reports of all cases known to have occurred since 2000. We have been working closely with the Churches' Child Protection Advisory Service, which has great expertise in the area and includes the black Churches. It has produced best practice guidance on how to handle such issues. Its director, David Pearson, who is very highly regarded, is working closely with his member Churches to see that they have the expertise that they need to deal with these cases.
Baroness Morris of Bolton: My Lords, it is important that communities and Churches made up of good and decent people are not vilified. There remain deep concerns about the treatment of a number of children. Does the DfES report look into claims that some children born in Britain are being sent to the Congo, ostensibly to live with relatives, where they end up in appalling conditions in some of the revivalist Churches? If we are to avoid vilification, we need to be sure of the facts. Also, what assistance and resources are being made available to the Churches' Child Protection Advisory Service and the Metropolitan Police for training and education in child protection in the African Churches and other religious organisations?
Lord Adonis: My Lords, the full details will be in the report and I cannot, unfortunately, pre-judge its publication. We have given support to the Churches' Child Protection Advisory Service to develop its work, including publication, in conjunction with the Metropolitan Police, of its new guidance, Safe and Secure. That includes a helpline that can give support and advice in crisis situations to those dealing with ongoing protection concerns. It also gives safe practice guidance to protect children and young people from abuse and workers from false allegations. The Churches' Child Protection Advisory Service has also held positive meetings with Congolese pastors, who
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have expressed a clear desire to work closely with the advisory service and us in child protection. For example, a child protection training event, run by the Churches' Child Protection Advisory Service, was held in February and attended by no fewer than 230 Congolese pastors. We believe that we are making progress, but I do not minimise the gravity of the situation.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, is the Minister aware that, of 40,000 allegations of child abuse made over the past five years in the Metropolitan Police area, 50 concerned allegations of witchcraft involving young African children? He said that the report is to be published very soon; can he give us some idea of whether "very soon" is within the next month or the next three months?
Lord Adonis: My Lords, I hope that it will be closer to the first than the second.
House of Lords: Reform
2.49pm
Lord Hamilton of Epsom asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they have made an assessment of the effectiveness of the House of Lords within a bicameral Parliament since the reform of the House by the House of Lords Act 1999.
The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos): My Lords, the Government keep under constant review work on the effectiveness of the House of Lords. The House of Lords has a valuable role to play in the legislative process of this country.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her Answer. Does she agree that since 1999 your Lordships' House has played an excellent role as a revising Chamber, getting the House of Commons to think again on a number of issues without seriously challenging the supremacy of the other place? Will not all that change if your Lordships' House is partly or wholly elected? Elected Members will have to make commitments to their electorate to use every procedural device to challenge and thwart the will of the House of Commons.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, we all agree that this House does an excellent job as a revising Chamber. The noble Lord knows that the composition of the House is being looked at and that the Government have promised a free vote on the issue. When we last voted, this House voted for the continuation of an appointed second Chamber, and the House of Commons did not reach a view.
Lord Soley: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that now is the time for all parties in this House to be much more positive and proactive? There are opportunities to expand the role of the House in
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scrutinising legislation—not least, in post-legislative scrutiny, which is attracting considerable interest. Will my noble friend join me in saying to all parties and Members, "Let us look positively at what we can do and worry less about scoring party-political points"?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Soley indicated, it is important to look positively at the role that the House can play, but we also have to be candid with ourselves. There are very different views around your Lordships' House—not necessarily based on party affiliations—on the role that this House can play. We should discuss that in a way that allows us to be candid and open, and I hope that the Joint Committee's consideration of conventions will start that process.
Lord Renton: My Lords, having been in the other place from 1945 until 1979, may I say that the other place has somewhat declined in its representation and that your Lordships' House has increased its representation to a most remarkable extent? Indeed, I venture to suggest that it is better left as it is, because if it tried to be representative by election it might decline.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Renton, has a great deal more experience than I. Indeed, he entered Parliament nine years before I was born. The two Houses operate differently; we have different roles in our bicameral Parliament. There is no doubt that the role of the House of Lords has changed. In a dynamic democracy, that is to be expected.
Lord McNally: My Lords, does the Minister agree that all the studies—including that by the Constitution Unit at University College, London—and most opinion polls actually confirm that since 1998 the prestige of this House has risen enormously with the general public? Could that have anything to do with the fact that the reformed House more accurately reflects the support for parties in the country than the other place does and thus there is less of the Punch-and-Judy politics that we see there? Could she draw that to the attention of the Leader of the House of Commons? Part of the solution to lifting the prestige of the Commons might be to reform its own voting system.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is always entertaining to listen to. I do not agree with him that the reason why this House has such a high standing in the country is that it more accurately reflects support for parties. I think that it reflects the fact that, on certain controversial issues, when this House takes a stand—I think that, last time I answered a Question on House of Lords reform, I said that this was not always a comfortable place for a Government to be—those issues are given a lot of time in the media; that is when this House rises to the fore. In addition, the work and in-depth studies done by many Select Committees in this House—in
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particular, the Science and Technology Committee and the European Union Committee—gain much credibility outside.
Lord Sewel: My Lords, does my noble friend the Leader accept that the expertise and experience that is available in this House could be better brought to bear on the legislative process and the role of scrutiny by an examination and perhaps an enhancement of the committee structure of this House?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, there are a number of ways in which the expertise in the House could be better brought to bear. My noble friend Lord Soley mentioned pre-legislative scrutiny. We are now talking about an enhanced role for the committee system in this House. That is part of a process that I hope the House can engage in—thinking positively about what the role of the House should be.
Lord Higgins: My Lords, is it not the case that, as a result of rigorous programming in another place, Bills are now arriving in this House with substantial parts of them not having been debated at all in the lower House? Has not the burden of legislation shifted substantially from the Commons to this House? Should one not consider carefully whether something needs to be done to reverse the trend of the past 10 years?
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