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Leicester City Council Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and referred to the Examiners.
Liverpool City Council Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and referred to the Examiners.
23 May 2006 : Column 816
Maidstone Borough Council Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and referred to the Examiners.
Wireless Telegraphy Bill [HL]
Bill reported from the Joint Committee with an amendment and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House; it was ordered that the Bill be printed as amended.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past eight o'clock.
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Tuesday, 23 May 2006.
Grand Committee
The Committee met at half-past three of the clock.
[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (LORD HASKEL) in the Chair.]
Animal Welfare Bill
(First Day)
Links to other Grand Committee Sittings on the Bill
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel): I have to advise noble Lords that if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and will resume after 10 minutes.
Clause 1 [Animals to which the Act applies]:
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer moved Amendment No. 1:
"( ) Before making regulations under subsection (3), the appropriate national authority must consult—
(a) such persons appearing to them to represent relevant interests, and
(b) such other persons,
as they consider appropriate."
The noble Baroness said: I am pleased that we have reached the Committee stage of this Bill and I am certain that we have an interesting set of issues to explore. The first amendment that I have tabled seeks to probe exactly what the Government intend to do when they come to make regulations. This Bill essentially paves the way for secondary legislation. During its consideration in another place, the EFRA Committee's report made it quite clear that there were widespread concerns about the scope of the legislation to be introduced by the Bill and expressed the wish that all the issues be thoroughly explored. So this amendment seeks to examine the power in Clause 1 to use regulations in order to extend the provisions of the Bill—for example, to protect invertebrates or animals still at the embryonic or foetal stage of development.
I shall be interested to hear from the Minister precisely who is to be consulted when those regulations are made. It is important that it is made clear who will be involved in the consultation, in what capacity and what interests they represent so as to ensure that all the relevant considerations are taken into account. This Bill is being considered against the background of what, of course, has been deep concern in the other place about the provisions of the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill, so I suppose that we are particularly sensitised to the issues surrounding secondary legislation. Therefore, a theme running through the amendments that I have tabled is that we shall want to know exactly what the Government intend in secondary legislation. I beg to move.
Baroness Byford: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for opening our discussions on the Bill today. We share
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her concern that so much of this Bill is left to Henry VIII clauses and hence to regulations. I want to put that on the record because I feel strongly about it.
As we are discussing legislation on animal welfare, I declare an interest as an associate member of the British Veterinary Association. I think that that ought to be recorded and I suspect that other Members of the Committee will at some stage want to record their interests, too.
The point that I want to raise with the Minister—it was not touched on by the noble Baroness—is that I presume that the people to be consulted within the remit of Clause 1 will be those with science-based knowledge. Obviously, a great deal of scientific research is carried out into when an animal does and does not feel pain, and I assume that the people involved in that research will be consulted. Those one would naturally consult would be members of the British Veterinary Association or the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, although there must be many others involved in this kind of animal research. In supporting the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, I ask the Minister to say whether the Government have yet formed a view on exactly who is to be consulted and to outline for us what kind of scientific knowledge those people might have.
Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: In declaring an interest as a veterinary surgeon and a former president of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, I support the amendment. I have little more to say except that the noble Baroness has put it very well.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Rooker): I am grateful to the noble Baroness for bringing forward the amendment. I think that I can satisfy the Committee. The Government have said throughout the development of the Bill that we are committed to consulting before using the delegated powers in it and will in practice always do so. For that reason, we do not feel that the amendment is necessary, as it would not alter the way in which the Government will use the powers in Clause 1 in any event.
In some ways, the Government cannot be circumscribed in this way in consulting, because, once we consult and put out a document in hard copy and on the website, it is a free-for-all out there for everyone to say their piece—and quite right, too—whether they be individuals, learned institutions or people working in particular sectors. Obviously, we will take account of the results of the consultations.
When the Select Committee in the other place conducted the pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill, it recommended the insertion of a duty to consult before issuing regulations to promote welfare or to exempt certain procedures from the prohibition on mutilations. We accepted that recommendation and noble Lords will find it included in the Bill at Clause 12(6) and Clause 5(5). To that extent, we have embraced exactly what was required.
Clause 1 is slightly different from the clauses on mutilations and the promotion of welfare in that there is already a requirement for some level of consultation.
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Clause 1(4) specifies that the appropriate national authority can use the power to make regulations only if it,
that the species being protected is,
That requirement to base a decision on scientific evidence ensures that the appropriate national body must, before taking any decision, take account of the views of scientists in the field.
Further, as extending the scope of the Bill beyond vertebrates would be a highly significant step, the affirmative regulation-making procedure has been chosen to allow for the proper degree of parliamentary scrutiny. That is important, as there will have to be a debate in both Houses, which would have to actively approve the regulation. In effect, that adds a further level of consultation. Once one has put a debate on the Order Paper, other people can lobby and put their views to noble colleagues and to honourable Members in the other place.
The report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships' House agreed with our assessment that the powers in this clause are "sufficiently circumscribed". In other words, the Government cannot do what they want; they have to consult. As I said, our intention will always be to do so.
Baroness Byford: Before the noble Baroness comes back on that, perhaps I can ask the Minister whether the Government have any time schedule for this procedure to go forward. I remind him gently—because he was very genuine in what he said—that, although we can talk about any order that comes through, we can very rarely, even under the affirmative procedure, alter it once it has been set in stone. Therefore, we shall continue to express worries as the Bill progresses. As he knows, we take lots of statutory instruments and we debate them fully, but it is very rare that they get changed at all.
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