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Lord Livsey of Talgarth: From these Benches, we recognise that these are tactical amendments. We agree with them. As they are the only government amendments listed, we would like to see them proceed.
5.30 pm
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: Did I hear the noble Lord say that they were "tactical" amendments?
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: Technical amendments.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: I was about to correct the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, or tackle him on the same technical point. Certainly, these amendments have the Opposition's endorsement.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 5A and 5B not moved.]
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 2, line 4, leave out from "are" to end of line 6 and insert "as specified in the Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) Order 2006"
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 6A to 7 not moved.]
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4 [Power to vary date of ordinary general election]:
Lord Thomas of Gresford moved Amendment No. 8:
"(1) The Presiding Officer shall have the power to propose a day for the holding of the poll for an ordinary general election on a day which is neither—
(a) more than one month earlier, nor
(b) more than one month later,
than the first Thursday in May.
(1A) If the Presiding Officer makes a proposal under subsection (1), Her Majesty may by Order in Council—
(a) make provision for the assembly to be dissolved on a day specified,
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(b) require the poll at the election to be held on the day proposed,
(c) make provision for—
(i) any provision of, or made under, the Representation of the People Acts, or
(ii) any other enactment relating to the election of Assembly members,
to have effect with such modifications or exceptions as are appropriate in connection with the alteration of the day of the poll, and
(d) require the Assembly to meet within the period of seven days beginning immediately after the day of the poll."
The noble Lord said: We move to the issue of general elections. Clause 4 is concerned with the power to vary the date of an ordinary general election and Clause 5 deals with extraordinary general elections. The point that I wish to raise with the Minister—and I shall be very interested in his response—is why the Secretary of State is the person who in Clause 4 can vary the date of the ordinary general election and why it is the Secretary of State who proposes the extraordinary general election under Clause 5.
That is not the case in Scotland. The Scotland Act 1998 places upon the Presiding Officer the duty of proposing a day for holding the poll which is not more than one month earlier nor more than one month later than the first Thursday in May. Again, for an extraordinary general election in Scotland it is the Presiding Officer who proposes the day for the holding of a poll if the Parliament resolves that it should be resolved by a resolution of two-thirds of its Members voting.
I think that it will be generally recognised as the Bill proceeds that one of the issues that we take with the Bill is the powers it gives to the Secretary of State. It is as though in Scotland the officers of the Parliament can be trusted but in Wales it is necessary to have a Westminster Minister take over some of the functions used by the Presiding Officer in Scotland. Accordingly, my Amendment No. 8 would replace the Secretary of State with the Presiding Officer; to give him the power to propose the day for the holding of a poll on a day which is not the first Thursday in May within the limits specified; and that he should have that power only if the Assembly has passed a resolution in favour with at least two-thirds of the Members voting to support it. Your Lordships will see that Clause 4(5) states:
"No order is to be made under this section unless the Secretary of State has consulted the Welsh Ministers about it".
There is nothing like that in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament controls this issue. Why should the Secretary of State consult not the Assembly itself but the Welsh Ministers about the important issue of varying the date of the election?
Similarly, Amendment No. 11 would replace "Secretary of State" in Clause 5(1) with "Presiding Officer". Amendment No. 12 makes it clear that the resolution of the Assembly is passed on a vote in which the number of Assembly Members voting in favour of it is not less than two thirds of the total number of
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Assembly "members voting", as opposed to "seats". Amendment No. 13 would replace "Secretary of State" with "Presiding Officer" in Clause 5(4). The Government ought to trust the Presiding Officer in Wales to fulfil precisely the same functions as the Presiding Officer in Scotland. I beg to move.
Lord Crickhowell: When I spoke to Amendment No. 1, I said that I had a certain amount of sympathy with the amendment that would be moved later on this very point. It seems extraordinary that the Secretary of State has to be involved in this process. Looking at the Explanatory Notes, I suppose that the Government will point out that if the Secretary of State is involved, an order must be laid before Parliament and is subject to being annulled by resolution of either House of Parliament. But that is not a compelling argument. If the Presiding Officer acts within the limited arrangements that are proposed for changing the date and the matter is approved by the Assembly, is it really necessary for Parliament to intervene and approve or for the Secretary of State to be involved? We are entitled at least to a pretty clear explanation of why we have to go down this route and why the Assembly cannot be trusted to deal with a matter of this kind.
Lord Davies of Oldham: The short answer is because we are considering an emergency situation. The date on which the elections take place is established. If a variation were to occur, it would do so only because of extreme circumstances. It might fall during some kind of national emergency; it might be a national day of mourning. There might be some necessity for variation. The Secretary of State would not normally vary the date of an Assembly general election. This provision would enable him to do so when the ordinary circumstances in which the election would be fulfilled according to law had to be varied because of some national difficulty. Some action would therefore need to be taken by the executive.
We are talking about a limited period of time and very limited variation. The problem is that it might not be practicable in those circumstances to proceed by Order in Council. Since the need would arise at short notice, it would have to be acted upon swiftly. It is not always possible for Orders in Council to be made at very short notice. Yet the very concept that we have here is an emergency change within a very limited number of weeks to the normal process of the election of the Assembly.
Of course, I recognise sensitivities. I recognise the anxiety of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, which he put forward at Second Reading and already twice today. I have no doubt that he may present arguments in future about certain powers of the Secretary of State. On this issue, I hope that he will accept that we merely seek to cope with the short-term limited and emergency situation.
Lord Crickhowell: I indicated that it was precisely because we were dealing with a limited situation that it could be left. The Minister's explanation and excuse
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was that there might be a problem in timing of getting Orders in Council. But might there not be a difficulty in laying an order before Parliament which is subject to being annulled by a resolution of either House of Parliament? For example, what happens if Parliament is not sitting? Will it be more difficult to proceed under the arrangements proposed by the Liberal Democrat amendment than by the proposals in the Bill?
Lord Davies of Oldham: With regard to the fundamental issue of an extraordinary general election, the noble Lord will recognise that the powers are in the hands of the Assembly. The Secretary of State has no discretion on an extraordinary general election. If it is because of political breakdown and the government of Wales, under the National Assembly's provisions, are in difficulties, the Secretary of State has no discretion on the matter. If the Assembly either votes by a two-thirds majority of all Members to dissolve itself or if it fails to nominate a First Minister, which would be a definition of crisis and a failure of government, he must propose a date for a poll to take place. That relates to Amendments Nos. 11 and 13.
Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 relate to the emergency position when the ordinary election would take place, but there are difficulties in meeting the precise date because of emergency. Then the executive would need to act. I maintain that it is a power that is bound to be retained by the executive in those terms to vary the date of the election. I do not see how in other terms we could guarantee that effective action could be taken within a very limited time framework. We would be recognising that to postpone an election in emergency circumstances of this kind would inevitably be postponement on the basis of a very limited timescale.
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