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Lord Norton of Louth: I will be brief. There are three problems with the proposed system. The first,
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fundamental, one is that it will not deliver what is intended: somebody who will speak for Wales. If you are being elected for Wales, as a candidate you are going to appeal to where most electors are concentrated. That will therefore militate against the rural parts of Wales, so it is a worse system than the existing one.
The second, related, point—which has been touched upon—is that it will further distance the Members from electors. The danger there, experienced elsewhere where there are national list systems, is that Members will not have much constituency work, thereby increasing the tension between those carrying a constituency load and those who do not.
The third problem is the control it would give to the parties. There is a danger that it would further the stranglehold of the parties experienced elsewhere. There are a lot of problems with national list systems. Electors do not feel that they have their Members, or attached to those they elect to the legislature, so this is moving in the wrong direction. There was a balance of arguments in the earlier amendment, but not in this one. With all due respect, the arguments are overwhelmingly against it.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: Briefly, we do not support this amendment, although I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, does a tremendous amount of good work, and I can see the virtues of the proposal for an all-Wales constituency. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, said, there are a number of practical drawbacks. One of them, which the noble Lord pointed out, was the power of the political parties to nominate the lists. One could see a situation where Members were perhaps elected for the whole of Wales, but from just one part of Wales. They might predominate. That is perhaps the worst possible outcome, but it could happen. Although it is a good thing to have independents elected—it has been pointed out that there are some independents in the Assembly—there is a considerable downside to this proposal. We do not support this amendment.
Lord Anderson of Swansea: One of the weaknesses of Wales—which is also its strength—is the excessive localism. Hiraeth is not for Wales as a whole, but for a valley or a little area. That gives a great element of democracy. The problem of having an all-Wales constituency is that by representing everyone, representatives would represent no one. The point has already been made that such people would not have a constituency and would therefore not have the feet-on-the-ground knowledge that comes—if they do their job properly—to people elected by some of the systems that have been mooted, whether the existing one or the STV.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is right that Wales has national problems. It is important that Members of the Assembly should grasp those problems on a national scale. At the same time, those problems will not be recognised in detail unless the Members have a local
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attachment to a constituency or, as 20 Members currently have, to a region. That is why the old European regional constituency was adopted by the Government as the basis for the current regional membership. I agree with all the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Norton, which are extremely effective, because in an area such as Wales, which has a spread of population, it is clearly very difficult to devise a system that does not favour populous industrial areas at the expense of rural areas and that overcomes the problem of distance between the representative and his electors.
Lord Davies of Coity: The justification for a Wales constituency suggests to me that one would then be representing a country, rather than the people who live in it. Nearly 40 years ago, when I was elected to a parish council in Wales, there were six members of that council. One picked the top six. The people all voted and one represented the parish. One could walk into every street, go into every house and know everybody in the parish. The moment I went beyond that and represented the parish on a rural district council, I represented that parish and the people who lived in it. I did not represent another parish. If we are not careful and if this amendment were accepted, as my noble friend Lord Anderson said, one would represent nobody. In fact, one would appear to be representing a country and would not be representing the people who lived in it because one would not have any commitment to any particular group of people anywhere in the country. That is where this proposal is flawed.
Lord Davies of Oldham: The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, deployed some good arguments about what we all recognise is a problem; namely, regional lists. We all know where the criticisms come from. However, she will recognise that the Committee is not enamoured of the concept of national lists, and nor are the Government. That is not because we are being dismissive of the concept. In fact, we considered it very seriously. It was one of the significant representations put to the Welsh Affairs Select Committee by Dr Richard Wyn Jones of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth when there was consultation on these issues.
For the reasons that have been adumbrated on both sides of the Committee, I believe that the noble Baroness will recognise the problem with regional lists. Again, I am grateful for the precision of the analysis given by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, of the problems with the national list. I was almost going to use an analogy about shooting and animals, but I will depart from that lest it causes undue distress. It is sufficient to say that those arguments were presented adequately by him and I do not need to reiterate them. The problem with the regional lists is that individuals might seek to concentrate their resources, energies and desire to be effective representatives on a particular locale because of their affinity for their area or because they might consider that area to be a more fruitful and secure base in the future than their participation on the
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national list might be. That problem, which the national list might look as if it addresses, in fact merely compounds it. The great danger is that individuals elected on the national list would inevitably deploy themselves in areas where they thought they would be most effective, in the way in which they defined their own effectiveness. I am therefore not sure that it is a solution to the problems that we identify with the regional lists. I hope the noble Baroness will think she has had a good hearing and will be prepared to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and who have, with the customary courtesy of this House, very gently but firmly knocked my proposal on the head. The concept of all-Wales list members roaming around Wales reminded me of my weekend on call last weekend when I was the roaming doctor for south-east Wales, so I know very well what it feels like to be visiting lots of places and not know where you belong. I am grateful to everyone, but I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, for having picked up on the point that we have discussed outside the Chamber—namely, the need for very clear job descriptions for different types of members to get rid of existing tensions. I believe that those tensions are inappropriate, because they are all working very hard. Having given evidence to a committee of the Assembly, I must say that I am impressed by the way in which the members are working, whatever the electoral system that put them in place. I hope that things will be better. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 [Assembly constituencies and electoral regions]:
Lord Davies of Oldham moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 2, line 2, at end insert "(as specified in the Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) Order 2006)"
The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 5, 6, 30 and 47 are four minor and technical government amendments. Amendment No. 5 makes it clear that Assembly constituencies are parliamentary constituencies in Wales as specified in the Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) Order 2006, which will have effect in relation to Assembly elections in 2007 and afterwards.
Amendment No. 6 replaces reference to the European Parliamentary Constituencies (Wales) Order 1994 with reference to the Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) Order 2006. This makes it clear that the five Assembly electoral regions are those specified in the Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) Order 2006 and not those specified in the 1994 order. The 2006 order will have effect in relation to the 2007 Assembly elections and subsequent elections.
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Amendment No. 30 ensures that paragraph 4(7) of Schedule 2 to the Bill properly mirrors Section 39 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 by inserting a power for the Secretary of State to make "appropriate modifications" when making an order applying the Local Government (Contracts) Act 1997 to contracts entered into by the National Assembly for Wales Commission. The Secretary of State, under Section 39 of the 1998 Act, currently has such a power in relation to the National Assembly for Wales.
Finally, Amendment No. 47 ensures that Clause 68 properly mirrors Section 39 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 by inserting a power for the Secretary of State to make "appropriate modifications" when making an order applying the Local Government (Contracts) Act 1997 to contracts entered into by the Welsh Ministers. I beg to move.
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