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Lord Elystan-Morgan: On the amendment dealing with whether we use the word "parliament" or "senedd" to describe the present Assembly, I consider this a matter of considerable principle. Members of the Committee may ask, "What is in a name?". As Shakespeare put it,
But not when one is dealing with parliamentary draftsmanship and not when names are symbolic of the hopes and aspirations of a whole community. That is, essentially, what the amendment is about.
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I shall make my submissions briefly. First, there is a very solid precedent for the use of the word "senedd", at least in its English form. In the legislation of 1978, which preceded the referendum of 1979—the Committee will remember that the Act of Parliament set up the very structure of that institution but it was up to the Welsh people to accept it or not and in the event they did not—the term used for the body was not "assembly" or "parliament", but "senate". Therefore, one should always remember that there is that solid and respectable precedent to be built upon.
Secondly, I do not believe there is anything pejorative in the use of the word "senate". Some people in Wales have argued that it has indeed an unfortunate connotation, coming from the Latin senex, meaning an old man and, therefore, that it depicts a body of senile people. I am quite sure that the average age of Members in the Welsh Assembly at present is somewhat younger than that of both Houses at Westminster.
We also have the precedent of the Scotland Act 1998. The Scots achieved a parliament. As the jurisdiction, particularly the legislative jurisdiction, of the Welsh body was not exactly on a par with Scotland, it might be argued that that distinction should be drawn. But we are now dealing with a Bill that closes that gap considerably. Part 3 of the Bill will enable substantial legislative decisions to be made on a fairly regular basis. Part 4 will create a full-blown legislature. It will be up to the Welsh people whether or not they opt for it, but that option will be there. That enabling legislation will be a fact and a reality if this Bill passes.
Furthermore, there have been, as Members of this House are well aware, very many home rule Bills over the past century or so—I think they go back to about 1880. In each case, as far as I know, there was a reference, not to an assembly, but to a parliament. Therefore, bearing in mind that in 1978 a body that did not have half the authority held by the present body was called a senate, it would be retrograde and strange to adhere to the term "assembly".
I heard, with great respect, the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea. However, the short point is that there is no such term of art in the nomenclature "assembly" as to tie this House to any particular form of constitution. It is a general term. Again, it seems that if we adopt this amendment—I doubt whether the Government will be so completely accommodating—it would not do more than show respect for the hopes and aspirations now generally held by a majority in Wales as to a form of government that would be worthy of the Welsh nation.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: I am sure that we are all grateful to my noble friend Lord Crickhowell for opening in his usual poignant and effective style the first Committee debate of the Bill and for highlighting the simple fact that we already have a National Assembly for Wales, and have done so since the Government of Wales Act 1998. Section 1 of that Act states:
"There shall be an Assembly for Wales to be known as the National Assembly for Wales or Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru".
Those words of translation were carefully chosen and debated at that time. We should be careful before making an abrupt change. We must be sure that it would be acceptable to the Welsh people. Let us not forget that "Senedd" is the word normally used in Welsh to describe this Parliament of Westminster, which is somewhat different from "Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru". The next subsections of Section 1 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 state:
When one compares the content of that section with the content of the first clause of this Bill—and, indeed, the remainder—one begins to realise the extent of the change envisaged in the new Bill. The new Assembly is not a later model; it is a new creation. It is not, as a whole, a body corporate—that status is confined to the Assembly Commission. As for its functions, the majority are to be transferred to Ministers in the Assembly government.
Some might say that the Ministers, rather than the Assembly, are the real gainers under this Bill. As the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has noted, in paragraph 11 of its seventeenth report:
"The principle of this bill is that powers to make delegated legislation should in future be conferred on Welsh Ministers, the First Minister or the Counsel General (who is not required to be a member of the NAW)".
The transfer of functions to Ministers, in the process of separating the executive and legislative arms of the Assembly under the 1998 Act, is extensive and goes beyond the provisions of Part 2 of this Bill, to Part 6 and the transitional provisions in Clause 161 and Schedule 11. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee states in paragraph 45 of its report that,
"it is Schedule 11, not an order under clause 58, that gives NAW's existing functions of making subordinate legislation to Welsh Ministers".
So there is a subtraction of power from the Assembly proper and an accretion of power to Ministers, as I read the Bill and, I think I am right in saying, as the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee reads it. The committee considered that,
"the transitional provisions are more significant than in most other bills and that the affirmative procedure should apply to orders which modify Schedule 11".
I hope that we will remember that point when we come to that part of the Bill.
4 pm
The National Assembly of the 1998 Act, which was modelled on local authorities, has not been an outstanding success in all respects, as the strong wish to change it expressed by the Assembly itself in 2002 clearly indicates. The Government's endorsement of the present Bill, based on the White Paper Better Governance for Wales, points to the same conclusion. The inescapable fact is that the present system does not
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appear to command the support of the majority of the people it serves. Even the most optimistic interpretation of opinion polls does not assert that with any degree of conviction.
The Bill represents a fresh start, which is conveyed in the first clause. The key question is whether it is the right start. The Secretary of State, Mr Peter Hain, said in the other place as recently as 28 February that:
"I have no doubt that if a referendum were held today, it would be lost".—[Official Report, Commons, 28/2/06; col. 209.]
That view hardly shows confidence in the rectitude of the old Bill or of the present one, but quite the reverse. However, at this stage, our task as an official Opposition is not to outline an alternative or to indicate a preference for one of those already presented, but to be constructively critical of the Government's proposals. That will, I hope, describe our conduct in Committee.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno: I welcomed the words of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, who quoted something that I was going to quote: Shakespeare's words "a rose by any other name". I suggest that a daffodil by any other name would look just as beautiful. Of course, this is not the same daffodil or the same rose. As the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, said, the Bill is a new start. It is a new opportunity. The Government often say that they fulfilled their pledges to Wales and Scotland and gave them the devolution of power that they asked for and voted for some years ago. This would be a great opportunity for the Government to take pride in a new title. They would be able to say in future elections that they gave Wales the "Senedd", the Senate. That would be a new step forward. I would like to say this in Welsh, but is not the manner of House for me to do so. But what a chance for the Government to say that they gave Wales a Senate that reflected the new role and the moving forward of devolution in Wales.
As has been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Livsey, the building in Cardiff has the name "Senedd" on it. Surely it is appropriate that the body that meets within that building should also be the "Senedd". I suggest to the Government that this is an opportunity to say that this is another landmark for which they are responsible. I am sure that most Members of this House would welcome a change of title from Cynulliad—assembly. There are school assemblies, the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland and many others are assemblies, but the new body in Wales will have legislative powers, which will develop as the years go on. The Government would find it so easy, this time, to mark this development by accepting this amendment and the term "Senedd" or Senate.
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