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Lord Bridges: My Lords, I should be grateful if the Minister would kindly explain the nature of the powers entrusted to the Secretary of State by Clause 2,
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regarding aircraft noise; as I understand it, the amendment would remove those powers. I have a local reason for asking that, as I happen to live in East Anglia, where there is nearby a large concrete runway rebuilt some 10 years ago for the United States Air Force, which no longer uses it. This is the former RAF Bentwaters. It is not a registered airport and there is no regular aviation. The site has largely been sold to nearby farmers, who use it for non-intensive agriculture; for example, the hardened aircraft shelters are now used for rearing ducks, with some success.
However, the runway is still there and is still used for occasional, unscheduled and maybe illegal flights by light aircraft, including visiting aircraft from the Netherlands. This frequently disturbs local residents—although not me, as I live some way off—who ask the planning authority what measures it is taking to limit the noise and frequency of these flights and to control the times at which they occur. The local authority says that it has no staff to monitor these local flights and that the residents should supply information—accompanied, it hopes, by a photograph—giving the aircraft number and type and the time of the event. Few citizens are able to oblige with that information.
Am I right in supposing that it would be open to the local residents, under the existing framework of the Bill, to ask the Secretary of State to use his power under Clause 2 to exercise some control over what is happening, given the lack of interest shown by the planning authority? It appears from the Explanatory Notes accompanying the Bill that that may indeed be the case, but I should be grateful for confirmation. If I am right, the amendment would reduce the powers of the Secretary of State, which I should regret in this case, and I am therefore inclined to vote against its adoption.
Lord Gilmour of Craigmillar: My Lords, I declare an interest as someone who lives very near Heathrow between the two runways. That does, however, mean that I may know what I am talking about. I am not altogether sure that that normally applies to people in the Department for Transport, certainly where noise is concerned, and that is the case not only under this Government but under previous governments, too.
I am by no means convinced that aircraft will get quieter because, until now, all noise measurements have turned out to be inaccurate and I suspect that these will, too. Above all, noise measurements do not take account of the whine caused by the displacement of air, which, so far as I am concerned, is worse than the noise of the engine. Therefore, the idea that the Government can nonchalantly decide to give themselves power to multiply the number of night flights by any amount seems to me an extraordinary dereliction. As the Minister knows, there is a strong movement throughout Europe and this country to abolish night flights altogether, but this Government
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now want to multiply them by goodness knows how many. So I strongly support my noble friend's amendment.
Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I want to ask my noble friend a question in relation to a comment that he made in Committee. I believe he said that these changes, if adopted, would not come in before 2012. He went on to say that,
"the intention behind the Bill is to create the necessary flexibility to take account of new technology and changes to the position adopted by people in relation to night flying".—[Official Report, 5/12/05; col. GC 90.]
I think that other noble Lords have made similar comments. There is grave suspicion about this. Why do we need to bring in legislation if it is not needed for six years? There is grave suspicion that "flexibility" means more flights, and I urge my noble friend to think again about this. Frankly, he could bring in regulations or even another Bill in five or six years' time, when there may be a lot more understanding of the effect of noise on people. I think that it is very premature to do this now.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, I can see that the Government have a difficult balancing act here. Aviation is one of our growth industries and many jobs are involved in it, and, although we all want to be green, I do not think that people would be very happy if we saw substantial job losses. I can see why the Government want to ensure that we continue to maintain Heathrow, in particular, as our central hub. Many in Europe would be very pleased to get their hands on the flights that might be pushed their way if they could not go to Heathrow and they would be pleased to see job growth in their countries rather than in the UK. So I can see that a balance has to be struck.
I also live under the flight path and am troubled by the noise early in the morning. I declare an interest in that I am a non-executive director of National Air Traffic Services. I have an interest in this subject and on a number of occasions have questioned why more flights appear to be coming in earlier these days than used to be the case. I am not sure on which side of the line we are in regard to the regulations.
The point that has been put to me is that many incoming flights are not simply holiday flights; people are flying in on business and, in particular, they are flying in from the Far East. The one thing that I know from working within NATS is that, as soon as the aircraft get close to the UK, there is a dash to be first in line to get down on to the concrete. I have long argued that there is a case for greater international co-operation to ensure that planes fly at a slower speed across continents so that they come in on schedule, rather than arriving half an hour earlier than required and having to be stacked, with all the consequential problems that that involves.
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Are the Government initiating efforts to try to have greater co-operation along those lines to ensure that there are savings in fuel, by having people fly at slower speeds than they do currently? Pilots are given complete freedom to fly as fast as they wish as long as they arrive at the destination on time. Improvements could be made to avoid the growth of more flights arriving early in the morning. I warn the Government that this issue causes a great deal of angst among the public in west London. If they do not take note of it, people will suffer as a consequence. I want to see greater efforts made by the Government to avoid the foot-in-the-door scene and even greater growth in the number of flights coming in at night in the future. Until I have heard what the Minister says, I am unsure which way to vote.
Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I support the amendment. When I was Member of Parliament for the Richmond Park constituency, this was by far the biggest issue for my constituency and surrounding areas. Sometimes I wonder whether the Minister and his colleagues are just shrugging and thinking, "It's west London again, here we go: precious people, living in a precious part of London". It is very precious, but our lives are ruined by the activities at Heathrow airport. If he does not believe me, I wish he would accept my invitation—Ministers in the other place never accepted it—to spend a few nights in the constituency in the summer time with the windows open so that he can experience the situation. I can offer very comfortable accommodation, even though a little noisy, and if he is seriously disturbed in the early morning, I promise to bring him a cup of tea. How about that?
I have two more serious points. One is that I have never, ever seen a serious argument putting forward how our economy would suffer if night flights did not occur. I have never seen the figures. People bandy about the fact that it is essential for UK plc to have businessmen and tourists arriving at Heathrow at 4.30 in the morning, but I have never seen the figures to back that up. I think we need them. Secondly, some of my constituents took their case for a good night's sleep to the European Court of Human Rights and won against the British Government. Then, of course, the Government appealed with some rather spurious figures and the case was thrown out.
I beg the Minister to take this matter seriously. It affects people's well-being and, as we have heard from the noble Baroness on the Cross Benches, in many cases it affects people's health too. If they are not careful, it will affect the Government's votes.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, first, I shall deal with one or two peripheral matters. I am not sure that I can accept the noble Baroness's invitation at some undisclosed time in the summer. However, I shall certainly make it my business to be acquainted with the level of noise at Heathrow. Of course, the problems do not affect only Heathrow, precious though west Londoners are, but other parts of the country are also
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affected by airport noise which creates difficulties for those on the ground. In the eyes of the Government, of course, all voters are equally precious.
The noble Lord, Lord Bridges, asked me about Bentwaters. We have no role for Bentwaters as a civil aerodrome in the air transport White Paper because, as he described it, it is a marginal facility. I assure him that there is no question of Bentwaters featuring in any aspect of expansion plans for air travel.
5 pm
I am afraid that the powers of the Secretary of State to intervene under Section 78 apply to designated airports, like London Gatwick, Stansted and Heathrow. Other airports could be designated, but obviously Bentwaters would certainly be, if not last on the list, one of the last to be considered. So the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, must address this issue to the local planning authority and those concerned with the local environment, because it is not for the Secretary of State to intervene.
The trouble with this debate—as when we discussed this in Committee—is that it appears to make Clause 2 an exceedingly contentious provision. That reflects a disappointing level of mistrust over the Government's intentions towards this clause. A frequent accusation—it has been made again today from several parts of the House—is that the Government intend to use the amended powers immediately to introduce night flying restriction regimes—at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, later this year—on a completely different basis from that on which we consulted. It is not so. We carried out the consultation in good faith. We may not have had the direct benefit of the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, to that consultation, but her people—west Londoners—were certainly well represented. How on earth could London Heathrow play its part in this without having reference to such interests? We are not operating on a different basis from that consultation.
Of course night flights are a sensitive issue. We all recognise the threat presented by aircraft noise, and want to keep it within limits. If it is suggested that there is no reason at all for night flights, perhaps noble Lords might address that to other airports in direct competition with our major airports. Sometimes the debate is presented as though not only the United Kingdom is an island, but Heathrow also exists in an island of air travel in which any restrictions on airlines and air transport can be made without economic consequence for it. Heathrow is in competition with major European airports; I mentioned Schiphol and Charles de Gaulle, but there is also the recent enormous development in Madrid. This competitive position is not one which we can lightly influence adversely. We certainly need to take the interests of our fellow citizens who live close to airports into account, but the suggestion that it would be easy and without consequence to ban night flights from Heathrow is, I am afraid, rather facile.
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My noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe was right when he said that Heathrow was far from being involved in night flights simply for leisure travellers, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, suggested. By the way, I am not sure that quality of life does not have to balance reasonable tranquillity on the ground at night with the obvious demand of our travelling public, substantially increasing in number year on year, for the enjoyment of travel by air.
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