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Lord Selsdon: My Lords, if we are issuing biometric passports and biometric identity cards without an identity card register, why do we need an identity card register?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I have been missing from some of the debates here during the past few months as I have been fulfilling my other duties. I understand that the House has spent several hours on the identity card legislation, and there may be one final opportunity to do so. I am sure that there have been enormously long debates about it, which I imagine the noble Lord will have attended.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, have Her Majesty's Government had discussions with the Government of the Irish Republic about sharing or exchanging databases that will be forthcoming from the legislation?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, it is a UK register, and it is not for sharing. As has been indicated during the debates, information, particularly in respect of security and criminal matters, that may be required by the jurisdictions that deal with matters in other states is another issue, but there will be no sharing of the database with the Irish Government. There will be no government-to-government sharing—I make that absolutely clear. However, if the situation arose, we would make use of the normal rules which apply in respect of the investigatory and prosecuting authorities in other jurisdictions. The Irish Government have been kept fully informed about what we are doing. There have been lots of meetings between Ministers in the Home Office and the Republic, and officials in the Home Office have kept their counterparts in the Irish Republic fully informed about what is happening. What happens in the Republic is a matter for the Government there and is nothing to do with us.
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EU: Food Packaging
2.56 pm
Lord Vinson asked Her Majesty's Government:
What steps they will take to preserve the traditional measurement of milk in pints, in the light of proposed harmonisation of food packaging in the European Union.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble Lord may have in mind the proposals under discussion in Brussels to harmonise current restrictions on package sizes for pre-packed products, but I can assure the House that there is no threat to the use of the pint for the sale of milk, either in the Commission's proposals or in the amendments recently proposed by the European Parliament.
Lord Vinson: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and can quite understand how he forgot to mention that, in this morning's news, subsequent to this Question being framed, it was reported that Conservative MEPs had secured a permanent exclusion of the pinta from such legislation.
Does the noble Lord recall that the House has seen a continuing flow of damaging regulation? Over the past few weeks, we have had the prohibition of the burning of tallow, the prohibition of strychnine and the change in the size of loaf. Is it not time that we brought back to this once self-governing country the ability to administer ourselves, at least at this level, by having a higher degree of subsidiarity through repatriating many of these powers?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am surprised that this straightforward Question about milk and its packaging has led to this tirade against the EU. I should have thought that the noble Lord would welcome the proposals, which are part of a deregulatory approach by the EU. He claims the success of MEPs in this endeavour, but I should have thought that it was clear that there was no prospect of the pint being abolished in the UK, so I am not sure what his MEPs have achieved.
Lord Harrison: My Lords, does my noble friend agree with the European Commission, which declared on 3 February in the Daily Mail that it was in favour of keeping the British pint and loaf? That comes under a new drive to cut red tape and leave businesses free to decide the form and size of packaging of meat and, indeed, milk. Is it not possible that the Opposition could decide whether the Conservative MEPs are excluded from their own group of the EPP?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I agree with the thrust of my noble friend's comments. As we have a few moments, I should try to clarify the exact position on milk, because that was the thrust of the Question. The current position is that milk in returnable containers must be sold in multiples of third- or half-pints, but milk sold in other than returnable
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containers—via supermarkets—must be sold in specified metric sizes, including multiples of 284 millilitres, which noble Lords will already have spotted is equal to half a pint, so either way you get a pint measure. The Commission's original proposals were to do away with any controls and to be totally deregulatory in this respect. The European Parliament's amendment is designed to bring forward the status quo on milk.
Lord Howe of Aberavon: My Lords, I declare an interest, now more than 30 years old—ancient but still lively—which goes back to the time before Britain had become a member of the European Community, when for two years, with all-party consent, my duties as a Cabinet Minister included responsibility for metrication. Can the Minister confirm that during the three decades since then, during which time my noble friend Lady Thatcher was Secretary of State for education, our children have been educated in the metric system rather that the imperial system and that, with the partial exception of draught ale and milk, all other liquids, from tomato juice to petrol, are served in litres and not pints or gallons? Since then, every country in the Commonwealth, with the partial exception of Canada, has followed our example and completed the process of metrication. Is it not now time for us to follow that example?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is right that the process of metrication goes back to 1965 and certainly precedes our entry into what was then the European Economic Community. It is right that the Government encourage the use of metric units of measurement for all purposes. However, they recognise that there are sectors of the population that retain a preference for imperial units, hence the staged approach to the introduction of metrication. I believe that the noble and learned Lord is also right about liquids, although I would add draught cider to the list of those that can still be dispensed by way of a pint.
Lord Kinnock: My Lords, will the Minister, with his ministerial colleagues, strive to secure the extension of consumer protection legislation from goods in the European Union to newspapers? Does he agree that if that were achieved it might save Members of the House and others the trouble of being misled and over-excited by completely false newspaper reports that the "pinta" is to be abolished by the dreaded Europe?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, my noble friend makes an interesting point. He is absolutely right to say that the issue was stirred up by a misleading headline in a newspaper. It is disgraceful that that should be the case. In the report that I read, the arithmetic was, I think, not right. It said that if one were served 500 millilitres that would be 64 millilitres short of a pint, but, I believe, it is 68 millilitres short.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, does the Minister agree that most people are more
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concerned with the quality of what is inside the packaging than the size of it? What is the DTI doing to ensure that British-produced beef, lamb and milk can be labelled as British and not those products that are produced somewhere else but simply repackaged here?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I would have thought that the quality of a product is important, but it is not the only important matter. Certainly, price and labelling are important, so that consumers can make real choices. The issue raised by the noble Baroness is outwith my current brief, and perhaps I may pass on that.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, if the sale of milk in pints is still permitted by our lords and masters in Brussels, do we retain the veto on its prohibition by any future EU legislation, or can this ancient and important freedom be removed by qualified majority voting?
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I have set out the position. The pint is not at risk. Noble Lords are scratching away at this to try to resurrect a story where there is none. I hope that the House will take pleasure in the fact that we continue to enjoy our pint of milk and leave it at that.
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