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Transport (Wales) Bill
7.43 pm
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, before we move to the Report stage of this Bill, on behalf of the Government I wish to express condolences to the family of Lord Merlyn-Rees. He was one of the leading parliamentarians of his generation, a great friend of Wales, and an active and courageous Member of the House of Lords. He will be sorely missed by colleagues on all sides of the House.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, I add my tribute to Lord Merlyn-Rees, whose political skills I admired over the years. When he was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and then Home Secretary, he was a very kindly as well as a clever man, as one would expect a fellow Welshman, born in Cilfynydd, to be. I am sure that his passing out of our lives is a very grievous loss to us all.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, from these Benches I add our sympathy to the family of the late Lord Merlyn-Rees. We appreciate his great skills, his distinguished career in public office, and perhaps even more so his courage in the past few years in his attendance at this House.
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Clause 1 [General transport duty]:
Lord Roberts of Conwy moved Amendment No. 1:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with respect, the explanation given to me by the Minister in Committee was not quite satisfactory. This amendment would be beneficial to the Bill. The Minister stated that Clause 1(3) deals with modes of transport rather than sections of society when it refers to,
However, he failed to appreciate that the elderly or disabled frequently require "facilities and services" that are not necessary for the general population, in just the same way as pedestrians and cyclists do. A wheelchair user would not be specially considered under this subsection as it stands, and something should be done to ensure that the elderly and disabled are always in the forefront of consideration.
In the same way, the Bill does not have sufficient consideration for the elderly or disabled, as the Minister claims it does. The specification of "elderly or disabled" in Clause 7(2)(c) refers only to certain public passenger transport services, not to the wider transport network, and even those appear to be limited by Clause 7(5). The Bill should ensure that providing an integrated transport network for all, including the elderly or disabled, is a primary aim of the Assembly. Let us not minimise this category; the Royal National Institute for the Blind tells me that there are 100,000 blind or partially sighted people in Wales, and of course they have special transport needs. They and other disabled people and the elderly certainly deserve special consideration, because they have special transport needs. I beg to move.
Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, I have some sympathy with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy; indeed I question—as I suspect he does—whether Clause 1(3) is needed at all. Surely pedestrians and cyclists are included in,
If one starts to particularise, as one has done in this subsection, in respect of pedestrians and cyclists—and I do not really accept the distinction that my noble friend made—where does one stop? Clearly, disabled and elderly persons as mentioned in the amendment are people with special needs, who can be as distinct and special as the others. I have sympathy with the amendment, and I look forward to a definitive reply from my noble friend.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, here comes the definitive reply. Clause 1(3) makes it clear that walking and cycling are modes of transport for the purposes of the general transport duty. As I stated in Grand Committee, this subsection deals with the modes of transport rather than meeting the needs of particular sectors of society. Following Committee, I wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy,
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regarding his concerns about inclusion in the Bill of the elderly and disabled, and hope that other noble Lords have had a chance to read that letter.
It would be worth spending a moment reiterating a few points from that letter which highlight the Welsh Assembly Government's commitment to developing their transport policies to ensure accessibility for all people equally, as well as the reasons why the amendment is not necessary. One of the Welsh Assembly Government's underlying principles is equality of opportunity, reflecting the statutory requirement at Section 120 of the Government of Wales Act. The Welsh Assembly Government are committed to that principle, which is crucial in the development of all their policies. The commitment is embedded in the non-statutory Transport Framework for Wales published in 2001, which provides the strategic framework setting out how the Welsh Assembly Government will facilitate the operation and enhancement of the Welsh transport network.
More specifically, accessibility is one of the criteria used by the Assembly Government to appraise new transport schemes, and is a pre-condition for support under the transport grant mechanism which funds major local authority transport schemes. That is reiterated in the Assembly's guidance on local transport plans. Those existing arrangements will be further strengthened by the measures in the Bill, particularly the imposition of the general transport duty on the Assembly, the requirement to prepare a statutory Wales transport strategy, and the new procedures for transport planning and implementation.
I hope that noble Lords find the explanation that I have given satisfactory and encouraging, and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply, and to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, for his support for the amendment. I am afraid that I still do not accept the Government's view that there is a difference between pedestrians, cyclists and the elderly and disabled in terms of special transport needs. I simply do not see the distinction that the Minister seeks to draw between those groups. They all require and use special modes of transport. However, I do not think that we will make much progress at this stage in convincing the Government of the rectitude of our cause as expressed in the amendment, so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 [Public Transport Users' Committee for Wales]:
Lord Roberts of Conwy moved Amendment No. 2:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, subsection (1) establishes a public transport users' committee for Wales. We query the whole procedure for establishing it, because it is unacceptably vague. The clause
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certainly merits that description, so far as defining the powers and duties of that committee is concerned. Considering that the Bill has been so long in the writing, it is not unfair to expect a more defined and detailed result. The need for the committee has been recognised for many years, so why have the Government been so negligent in establishing the duties and functions that could and should have been worked out before introducing the Bill? I am bound to think that it is a bad omen for the further devolution of powers to the Welsh Assembly that we are asked to approve this mishmash of permissive powers. It is a half-baked proposal, which is one reason why we object to it.
As a result of that vagueness, the clause has been criticised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee for leaving so many aspects of the public transport users' committee to secondary legislation. The White Paper, Better Governance for Wales, and the Government of Wales Bill, which was discussed in the other place yesterday, provide for further framework legislation of just this kind. Why is this Bill—like the NHS Redress Bill, also currently going through this House—jumping the gun and running ahead of the Government's own timetable for regularising what is generally regarded as a highly dubious legislative procedure? It is for those reasons that we object to the clause describing the transport users' committee. I beg to move.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, Clause 8 will provide the National Assembly for Wales with the power to establish, by order, a public transport users' committee, as we have heard. The committee may make recommendations to the Assembly about any matter relating to public passenger transport services or facilities. In other words, the committee will be able to advise the Assembly, from the users' perspective, on all issues relating to public transport in Wales. The committee may also conduct or commission research and produce publications. The Assembly will be able to provide any necessary guidance and directions to the committee to enable it to carry out its work effectively. The committee will cover all public transport modes—ferries, air services, taxis, buses, trains—ensuring that the voice of the passenger is heard, whatever the mode of transport. It therefore has the potential to help to promote and develop integrated transport policies at a strategic level, as well as looking at more detailed or local issues.
The committee would be established by an order made by the Assembly in plenary session. The order would set out membership, ordering of the proceedings, and how it is to be staffed and accommodated. However, before making any order to create such a committee, the Assembly Government would prepare a regulatory impact assessment and undertake an extensive public consultation with all interested parties. The order will of course be subject to scrutiny by the National Assembly's Economic Development and Transport Committee.
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This is a new provision, which was added to the Bill in response to views expressed during the pre-legislative scrutiny. Both the Welsh Affairs Committee and the National Assembly's Economic Development and Transport Committee were in favour of the Assembly having the power to establish such a users' committee. Given that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
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