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Lord Warner: My Lords, one of the issues behind this consultation was, indeed, the impact on GPs. The noble Baroness raises an important issue. I am not aware of significant numbers of, or indeed any, assaults on GPs. I am aware of assaults on other NHS staff, and we have taken action in that area. If the noble Baroness would like to give me the details of particular assaults, I will certainly look into them.
Baroness Barker: My Lords, will the consultation report state the extent to which the 2004 proposals might compromise public health by dissuading people who cannot prove their citizenship from presenting for diagnosis and treatment of infectious diseases?
Lord Warner: My Lords, the noble Baroness has correctly identified one of the complexities in this particular area, and I share her concerns over those complexities. That is why Ministers are not rushing to make changes and are considering these complex issues very carefully.
Baroness Sharples: My Lords, what has been the annual cost of such visits?
Lord Warner: My Lords, we are talking about GPs. We spend £7 billion a year on GP and primary care services. The amounts that might be exploited in that area would be very modest indeed.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, how can we drain the world of its doctors and then complain about people coming to the United Kingdom for treatment?
Lord Warner: My Lords, we have good arrangements to stop the NHS recruiting. We have an
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ethical code, which stops recruitment in countries that cannot afford to lose their doctors. We cannot stop the free flow of health professionals to this country but we can limit the ability of the NHS to recruit them.
Earl Howe: My Lords, can the Minister give a slightly clearer indication of when the Government hope to publish their response to the consultation?
Lord Warner: My Lords, when we have analysed these complex and sensitive issues.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, first, during the consultation process did the Government examine the use of identity cards in reducing the bureaucracy that we presently encounter in many hospitals? Secondly, why was insurance not considered?
Lord Warner: My Lords, on the latter point, we tried to ensure that the arrangements for primary care were clear and in alignment with the arrangements for hospital treatment where we changed the charging regulations. There were no provisions in those hospital charging regulations for the kind of insurance arrangements suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd.
ID cards will certainly help to confirm a person's identity and establish whether he or she is eligible for free NHS treatment. The proposals in the consultation document do not depend on the introduction of ID cards but are intended to dovetail with the ID card scheme.
Baroness Sharples: My Lords, the Minister said that the cost was modest. Will he explain what is "modest"?
Lord Warner: My Lords, I also said that we did not have a precise figure. All will possibly be revealed when we complete our analysis of these complex issues and publish the consultation document.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, if it is intended that the National Health Service should dovetail with the ID card scheme, has an evaluation been made of the cost of ID card readers in every hospital and GP surgery?
Lord Warner: My Lords, I did not say that it was dependent on the ID card scheme; I said that it would dovetail with it.
Zimbabwe
2.56 pm
Baroness Park of Monmouth asked Her Majesty's Government:
What plans they and the European Union have to invoke the "international responsibility to protect" principle, agreed at the United Nations in September, to enable the United Nations agencies to distribute food to the people of Zimbabwe.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, world leaders agreed in September that states have primary
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responsibility for the protection of their own populations. Invoking the responsibility to protect requires the support of the Security Council. Clearly it is not a matter for the EU alone.
In respect of food distribution, food shortages are rife but mass starvation is currently unlikely. The UN has, through the World Food Programme, secured agreement from the government of Zimbabwe to distribute 300,000 tonnes of food to approximately 3 million people.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. Is she aware that on the day after the terrible Operation Cleanse Filth, people working with the urban poor in Harare appealed for help to the UN agencies in Zimbabwe, of which there are at least five, and to the Red Cross, to take in blankets, food and medicines? They were told that nothing could be done unless the Government asked for it. The Red Cross said that it could operate only in a war situation. Is there nothing that the Government can do through the Security Council and through those who might support us there to ensure that that policy will change and that the UN inside Zimbabwe will be required to do anything possible without having to ask the Zimbabwe Government, who will always say no? The whole idea of intervention, mentioned in my earlier question, makes no sense if we cannot do that.
Finally, DfID gives a great deal of money inside Zimbabwe through the UN, so we have a certain right to ensure that that is properly used for the benefit of the people who need it.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, in respect of the noble Baroness's final point, DfID works through the UN and through NGOs. I can assure the noble Baroness that the money is used properly and is properly accounted for. With respect to Operation Murambatsvina and the position first taken by the government of Zimbabwe when they said that the UN would not be allowed to distribute humanitarian aid in the form of tents, and so on, I am pleased to report that that Government have now written to the UN saying that they are prepared to accept humanitarian support from it. I like to think that that is because of international pressure. Immediately following that Government's refusal, the UN Secretary-General put out a very strong statement, which was supported by the EU, the UK presidency of the EU and many others. I like to think that that changed the heart of the government of Zimbabwe.
Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the General Assembly resolution spoke of compulsory intervention only as a final resort; only in order to protect the local population from serious international crimes; and, as my noble friend said, only on the authority of the Security
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Council? Does she agree that intervention without regard to those conditions would be a recipe not for protection but for anarchy?
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, my noble and learned friend is right. The summit outcome document is absolutely clear. If national authorities are manifestly failing to protect their populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, the international community is prepared to take collective action through the Security Council in accordance with the UN Charter. It is only by using those modes that such action will be legal.
Baroness Northover: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware of recent reports that government politicians and those associated with them have been siphoning off more than 1 million tonnes of maize from the state's grain marketing boards and selling it outside the country? Might that explain why they are happy to welcome United Nations grain in future? Has the international community factored in that siphoning off in deciding what Zimbabwe will need? What international action can be taken if that grain is being siphoned off in that way?
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, sadly, I was not aware of that allegation. I will ensure that it is properly investigated and that the information is put before the House in the Library.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, bearing in mind that millions are starving in Zimbabwe and that people in places such as the Masvingo province are living on berries from day to day, has the noble Baroness noticed that a US official said that, as things proceed, it may be necessary for the United States to contemplate intrusive action? In the context of what she said about of the principles of intervention by the United Nations, are the British Government thinking in the same terms if nothing else is done?
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