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House of Lords
Monday, 21 November 2005.
The House met at half-past two of the clock: the LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark.
Iraq: Women and Religious Minorities
Lord Lamont of Lerwick asked Her Majesty's Government:
What representations they are making to the government of Iraq about the position of women and Christians in Iraq since the coalition invasion of 2003.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Triesman): My Lords, we continue to discuss with the Iraqi Government human rights issues, including the protection of women's interests and those of religious minorities.
We have made it clear to the Iraqi Government that the constitution should protect the rights of women and religious minorities. Such provisions have been included in the constitution. We will work with the Iraqis to ensure that these protections are respected. There are 86 women in the Iraq National Assembly, equivalent to 31 per cent of its total membership.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, but is not the reality of liberated Iraq that 300,000 Christians have fled from their homes for fear of them being torched; that women in Baghdad cannot get jobs unless they agree to cover their heads; that women in Basra have had acid thrown at them by militia for wearing jeans; and that some of the so-called "women's representatives" in the National Assembly, to whom the Minister referred, support and have advocated the rights of husbands to beat their wives? Is not the reality that we have exchanged an evil dictatorship for a monstrous tyranny of mullahs over women and other minorities?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, perhaps I may answer that in a moment, but before doing so I want to express the regret of the Government and, I am sure, that of the House at the death at the weekend of a soldier from the 1st Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. The soldier's name will be released at 6 pm. I am not in a position to release it now, but I wanted to pay tribute to the courage, as ever, of members of our forces.
As there is no other opportunity today, perhaps I may also pay tribute to PC Sharon Beshenivsky and PC Teresa Milburn for their courage and dedication
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and for the loss of Sharon Beshenivsky's life. I apologise for the length of my answer, but this is a matter that should not go unmarked.
Obviously, there are serious problems in the way in which human rights are treated in Iraq. It is at the end of a period of dictatorship and abuse of human rights that has lasted for decades. However, the constitution provides for significant possibilities of change. They include equal opportunities guaranteed for all Iraqis—men and women; the prohibition of tribal customs, which are an assault on the rights of women in particular; and domestic violence, to which there have been references. I do not want to suggest that these constitutional provisions have overcome a very difficult and gloomy history, but they are steps in the right direction and I believe that they will result in the sorts of changes that I know the noble Lord plainly seeks, as I do.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, we on this side associate ourselves fully with the tributes that the Minister paid, both on the sad occasion of the death of yet another brave solder in Iraq and on the appalling murder of PC Beshenivsky in Bradford. Both are tragedies and, indeed, lessons that make us pause to think about how we should advance.
As to the Question, does not the new constitution, which has, after all, been agreed and takes us forward to elections in Iraq, contain unfavourable aspects in relation to the position of women? If each sect is allowed to develop its own family courts, will that not provide an open door for the return of Islamic and Sharia law, as applied in their most unfavourable form against women? While I am glad to hear that we are working with the Iraqis on these matters, can the Minister assure us that we will support any attempts after the next election in Iraq to amend the constitution to ensure that women's rights really are fully secured and not undermined by mediaeval and totally inadequate rules governing the position of women?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, it is widely known that negotiations on the formulation of the constitution tried to bring together a balance between religious freedoms for particular groups and their traditions, and the protection of individual rights. The reality is that that balance is unlikely to be in the right place at present. Further discussions will be necessary, as the noble Lord said. The difficulty with respecting religious freedoms along with human rights is that there are such clashes in the world. It is important to try to make progress, rather than believe that we are at a settled point.
Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, while recognising that Shi'ites are the majority in Iraq and Sunnis are the vast majority in the Islamic world, is there any
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evidence that either Sunnis or Shi'ites are discriminating against Christians and women to a greater extent than the other?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I am not aware of any data that show differential levels of discrimination. I will certainly try to ensure that, if there are such data, they are laid before the House.
The Lord Bishop of Southwark: My Lords, we on these Benches associate ourselves with the tributes that have been made.
Is the Minister aware that St George's Memorial Church in Baghdad is under 24-hour armed guard, and is now the only safe meeting place for Christians of all denominations in the city? Is he also aware that the cathedral's whole lay leadership team has been missing for four weeks, presumed kidnapped or killed?
Lord Triesman: My Lords, I fear that there are a number of places in Baghdad under 24-hour armed guard. At a recent meeting between our embassy and the Apostolic Nuncio in Baghdad, he confirmed that he did not feel that attacks on Christians were on the increase. We try to maintain close links with religious and ethnic communities in Iraq, and have good relations on the ground with Christian leaders such as Archbishop Kassab in Basra. We meet them and try to take account of their concerns. Whatever the improvements, however, it is not, as yet, a safe environment for Christians and many other parts of the Iraqi community.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, we on these Benches express our deep sympathy with the family of the soldier who has sadly lost his life in Basra, and with the families of the two brave and gallant women police constables who were shot in Bradford.
The Minister answered the previous question by saying that he had no evidence of discrimination. I press him further. Are steps taken to ensure that in the recruitment and—especially—the training of police services in Iraq, young men and women are told about the dangers of discrimination, particularly sectarian and gender discrimination? It looks a little as though the police forces have, to say the least, been somewhat infiltrated by powerful sectarian groups.
Lord Triesman: My Lords, in the training missions which we operate with the police forces being recruited—we, of course, are principally concerned with recruitment in the south of the country—we make every provision to ensure that there is anti-discriminatory training. It may well take some time for those lessons to take root. There has been a particular effort, however, to recruit women into the police force, including specialist women and those who can deal with the juvenile detention unit in Basra. I chart not success or complacency, but the beginning of a long process in which those ingredients must be focal.
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Overseas Students
2.44 pm
Lord Dearing asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether an increasing number of overseas students coming to the United Kingdom will benefit higher education and the national economy.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Skills (Lord Adonis): My Lords, yes. UK higher education institutions have had great success in recruiting overseas students. Numbers increased by over 50 per cent between 2001 and 2004. Overseas students bring many benefits. They provide an international perspective to higher education, foster lasting contacts and understanding between the UK and other countries, support the UK's research base and are an important source of income to institutions through tuition fees. The overall benefit to the economy is estimated at £3 billion a year.
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