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Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Does he not think that shifting the debate day to the end of the week will devalue it even further?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, my point is that I do not think that it is hugely devalued. I can at least construct an argument that, given that our Wednesday debates clash with Prime Minister's Question Time, what we do on Wednesday afternoons is not reported at all. There may be an argument that moving the debates to Thursday may make them more attractive to journalists and other commentators, who might wish to come in to see noble Lords in action at prime time. One of the extraordinary features of the newspaper industry is that it is one of the few in which deadlines have come forwards rather than backwards. It is increasingly difficult to get items into newspapers later in the day. So there may well be an advantage in having debates on a Thursday.
The second advantage relates to Committees of your Lordships' House, as regards which there is always a certain amount of stress finding the right time. After the five-hour debating time on a Thursday there will be a good prime-time slot late in the afternoon for such debates, Unstarred Questions and so on.
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There are also disadvantages, such as consecutive days for Committee and Report stages. I accept the noble Baroness's assurance that the usual channels will do everything that they can to avoid that. But the House should be aware that there is at least a possibility of the House sitting on consecutive days at important stages of Bills.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I accept that point, but does the noble Lord not agree that the experience of the House when we sit for four days to do government business towards the latter end of each Session shows that in general the usual channels manage to make very sensible arrangements?
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, and I see no reason why those arrangements should not continue. I welcome the words of the noble Baroness the Leader of the House on that.
Broadly speaking, therefore, I think that this is an experiment worth trying. We have had experiments in the past that have not worked and we have been able to go back. I see no reason why, in the next Session of Parliament, we should not be able to reverse this decision if it is seen not to serve the interests, not just of ourselves, but also of the House. I yield to no one in my admiration of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, as a fierce parliamentarian, but there are a few of us, on all sides, who wish to protect the importance of this House.
Nobody can deny that this is a hardworking House. It is recognised that people who sign up to become Members of this House sign up to giving up a great deal of their time and energy. In the words of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, if we agree to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, it will not stop our ability to make Parliament, particularly this House, messy and unpredictable. Therefore, I shall not support the Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, but I will support the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I hope that noble Lords might feel that lunchtime approaches and we should bring this debate to an end, not least because there is very important business, including Statements, to follow. As I said in my opening remarks, the Procedure Committee was not able to make a recommendation on the principal issue before us today. Therefore, it is not for me now to attempt to reply to the very good-humoured debate put forward by noble Lords who are for or against the changes.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, very few noble Lords raised any other matters that were in the report. But I have to refer to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House and to the noble Lords, Lord Williamson of Horton and Lord Strathclyde, who raised an extremely important matter; that is, packaging and double insistence.
Lord McNally: My Lords, because I was trying to be brief, I omitted to say that these Benches warmly
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supported those initiatives. We are particularly grateful to the Clerk of the Parliaments for facilitating that agreement.
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McNally. I should like to extend those words of thanks on behalf of all those involved. This is an extremely important matter, and those efforts have made the proceedings very much easier for me and my fellow Deputy Chairmen. I think that they have also made it very much easier for the House as a whole to understand what was going on.
The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, asked when committee reports were "ripe for debate". The report is now included when the committee in question instructs that it should be, because the committee now wishes to debate the report. That may be as soon as the government response has been received, or it may be after the committee has taken further evidence or undertaken further consideration of the subject. The answer is that it is up to the chairman and the committee to make the decision.
The noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, asked about the possibility of a further change in the debating day, to Monday. If he will excuse me, I do not intend to respond to that today. Let us deal with one thing at a time. So, with that, I leave it to the House to decide what it wishes to do with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers.
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, perhaps I should simply put it on the record that I caught the 2.35 train from Euston to Manchester yesterday and returned at 8.15 from Manchester, Piccadilly, and I have survived. I say that because I am quite familiar with what goes on beyond Watford.
We have had a good debate and all of the issues have been plainly set out. I shall do no more than take the necessary procedural steps by asking to test the opinion of the House.
On Question, Whether the said amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 98; Not-Contents, 135.
Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alliance, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Cockfield, L.
Colwyn, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lyell, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L. [Teller]
McNally, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neuberger, B.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Palmer, L.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Brett, L.
Bridges, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Gale, B.
Geddes, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B. [Teller]
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller]
Greengross, B.
Grocott, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Laird, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Luke, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marsh, L.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rix, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
24 Mar 2005 : Column 386
Baroness Lockwood rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion in the name of the Chairman of Committees, at end to insert "but with the omission of paragraph 20(b)".
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