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The Countess of Mar: My Lords, has the Minister heard the one about the Spanish bomb with the fingerprint on it which belonged to a United States
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lawyer who had never been in Spain? It was definitely his fingerprint and he was gaoled for two weeks while it was ascertained.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, if the noble Countess is suggesting that there are no circumstances ever when these things can be checked, that is clearly not true. It gives us a level of precision and ability to identify that we would not otherwise have. It is a tool, not a panacea, but it is extremely useful in the fight that we unfortunately have with dishonesty, fraud, terrorism and other matters.
The noble Earl raised the issue of biometrics and whether they would be difficult to match. Most checks of a biometric will be against the holder's own identity and record. That is one rather than the only check that will be made. It is right, too, that we shall continue to have other cards that are issued for specific purposes. We are not suggesting that identity cards should replace library cards, for example. They are unlikely to do that. Individuals will use those cards in a way that is very helpful and productive as regards identity. That is the real import.
I was asked whether the Bill will help in relation to crime and terrorism. The clear indication is that it will. That view was expressed by Sir John Stevens in November 2003 when he said that it is absolutely essential in the modern, dangerous world in which we live to have proper means of identification. Also, a team of officials went to Madrid to talk to the Spanish authorities about identity cards and their experience. The Spanish police stated that an identity card system makes life harder for terrorists and easier for the police. It hinders terrorist operations and makes it easier for the police to investigate and to track down terrorists.
It was difficult to say exactly to what extent an identity card scheme contributes to preventing or frustrating terrorism because identity cards have been long-established in Spain, so there is no comparison. However, the police believe that ETA terrorists have been marginalised and driven to reside outside Spain because they can be identified. The Spanish police state that they have identified nearly all the terrorists involved in the Madrid bombings and that that was made significantly easier by their identity card scheme. Identity cards were also used to identify the victims of the bombings quickly. So it is not just useful in identifying villains, but it can be incredibly useful in identifying victims.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. Perhaps the Government's information is not quite as up to date as it might be. In the famous LSE report there is an extensive study of crime reported by police in EU countries which notes that Spain, which has ID cards, has the highest number of terrorist-related incidents in the whole of the EU—1,218.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I hear what the noble Baroness says, but we have to listen to what
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the police say. They are saying clearly that without ID cards the situation would be even worse. Whether that helps us is a matter for noble Lords to consider.
Perhaps I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. Imprisonment for failure to pay will not be an issue. There will be a civil penalty and civil penalties are recoverable in the civil courts, in debt recovery proceedings. Non-payment of debt cannot result in imprisonment. That was prohibited by the Debtors Act 1869 and is subject to certain extensions that perhaps are not entirely relevant here.
To take up the point of the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, on financial services, in July last year the Financial Services Authority (FSA) made it absolutely clear that, in its view, the Bill has utility. It said that in the long term, if identity cards were a more effective token of identity than anything currently available, they could contribute substantially to the fight against crime and reduce the cost to industry. Those matters are clear.
It is also true that the widespread use of false documents is an essential aspect of terrorist activities. Al'Qaeda's training manual requires its operatives to acquire false identities to hide their terrorist activities. We believe, therefore, that ID cards will make it harder for them to do that.
I am conscious of the time. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, raised the issue of border controls and how they will be strengthened. We believe that ID cards will help to strengthen our borders against organised criminals for many of the reasons to which I have just alluded.
The noble Lord also mentioned devolution and the difference that that will bring. As with passports or immigration documents the issue of identity cards will apply uniformly UK-wide. Therefore, the Bill covers matters that are reserved to the UK Parliament. However, the use of identity cards to access public services that are devolved will be matters for the devolved administrations. Some would say that the joy and the whole point of devolution is that those differences will be possible.
I was asked about costs. The costs are £186 million for set up over the first three years; £415 million is the annual cost for biometric passports by 2008-09; £85 million is the annual cost for ID cards; £50 million is the annual cost for verification; and £85 is the estimated cost of an ID card/passport package. Those remain our current and best estimates. The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, will therefore forgive me, perhaps, for having risen to my feet at her £5 billion, because that is significantly different from our figures.
I should also tell your Lordships that the ICM survey showed that, when told the current proposals are for an ID card and passport package costing £85, 68 per cent of those asked still thought it was a good idea. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Baroness, but we would say that was fairly robust.
I join my voice to the congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Ballyedmond, on his maiden speech. It was a very fine speech indeed, not least because I agreed
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with it. The noble Lord brings a wealth of experience to this debate, and we in this House have always benefited from that diversity of experience which enriches our knowledge and ability to understand issues which are not necessarily our normal ken or point of reference. I congratulate and welcome the noble Lord.
The noble Lord, Lord Ballyedmond, very much echoed what was said by my noble friend Lord Giddens. There are some who argue that having a national database of names and addresses and other identity information linked to biometric identity cards will be the start of some sort of slippery slope. I simply say that we do not believe that is the case. We agree with the assessment made by, and the wise words of, the noble Lord, Lord Ballyedmond, and the accurate analysis of my noble friend Lord Giddens.
Conscious of the five points of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, that I have to deal with—which I shall do incredibly swiftly—I say to my noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall and my noble friend Lady Gibson of Market Rasen that they are absolutely right in their analysis of Clause 31. I give them the assurance that they seek—I shall do so telegraphically because of time, and shall be quite happy to outline it more fully later.
Both the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, and the noble Baroness, Lady Seccombe, raised their five points. First, legislation must clearly define the purpose of the cards. The Identity Cards Bill sets out statutory purposes at Clause 1, and makes clear that identity cards are provided to individuals as security and a reliable method of proving identity; for helping to identify people securely in the public interest; to help prevent and detect crime; to help enforce controls on immigration and illegal working; to safeguard national security; and to deliver more efficient and effective public services.
Secondly, is the technology sufficiently well developed and robust? We say that it is. The Government have always made clear that, before the final move to compulsion, there will be a rigorous evaluation to ensure that the technology is working and that public services have implemented the technology and business changes necessary to take full advantage of the scheme.
Is the Home Office capable of making the cards work? The short answer is yes. The identity cards project is subject to regular scrutiny by the Office of Government Commerce, a gateway review process. The ID cards will be issued by a new agency, building on the existing UK Passport Agency. The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, will remember the
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history of the Passport Agency. Will she now rejoice with me at its total reformation and rehabilitation as an institution of some great excellence?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I cannot resist the invitation to put on record my gratitude to the Passport Agency for allowing me to attend a meeting, arranged by my noble friend Lord Marlesford, about passport fraud. The dedication of the people in that service is second to none, and I thoroughly applaud what they have achieved despite some of the huge difficulties they have faced.
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