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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, while I agree with the noble Lord that real problems remain in Saudi Arabia, significant progress is being
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made. However, for my part I do not think that the question of driving cars is the main difficulty for women. That women cannot work on the same premises with men, that they cannot vote, and that many women feel under some constraint about how they appear in public are sources of great difficulty for them.
No doubt the whole question of the pace of reform is one that we will continue to debate, but in order for any reform in the Middle East to be successful, it is necessary to move at the pace of the country concerned and with as much support as possible from outside. That was very much the tenor of the two-nation conference in February, when we discussed not only questions about democracy, but also questions about youth development, women and good governance.
Baroness Cox: My Lords, in the discussions on democratic procedures, were other democratic principles enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, such as the freedom to choose and to change your religion, also discussed, together with some aspects of the move towards symmetry? For example, was it considered whether it would ever be possible to build a church in Saudi Arabia, as Saudis are freely able to build mosques in our country?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, that subject was not discussed at the two-nation conference in February, although it has been discussed in the past. In February we concentrated on the ways in which we might work together with Saudi Arabia, particularly during the course of the coming year, in building up an infrastructure between us that would be of real value. For example, Saudi Arabia must face the very pressing issue of youth unemployment. We looked particularly at vocational training.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, while I agree with the Minister about the pace of reform, does she accept that although the House of Ibn Saud has tried to make reforms it is up against the Wahabist religious establishment, which is extremely hard-line and has resisted every move, particularly on the question of a better and more proper role for women? Does she agree that the principle we should abide by in trying to assist the development of democracy in Saudi Arabia is that of festina lente?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, this is a very difficult balance to get right. Last week I made my sixth visit to Saudi Arabia. Over the course of my visits during the past six years I have been struck by how much Saudi Arabia is changing. There is a growing recognition on the part of the Saudi Government of the need for reform. A number of national forums for dialogue have been established, including on issues surrounding women and youth. Further, last October the Saudi Red Cross held its first human rights conference in Riyadh, while in March 2004 Saudi Arabia inaugurated its first human rights body. That body has 41 members, of whom 10 are women.
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The balance is difficult because if one steps back too far, one cannot give sufficient support to the reformers among the Saudis and, as the noble Lord has indicated, there is some pretty formidable opposition in Saudi Arabia to the sort of reforms I have outlined. So it is a question of handling the whole issue with sensitivity and heeding what the reformers in Saudi Arabia themselves recommend about the right pace of change.
Lord Ahmed: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that 1,400 years ago the Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon Him, worked for Khadijah, a woman entrepreneur whom he then married? Is she also aware that His daughter and other women members of His family participated fully in the life of that time? Given that democracy was established 1,400 years ago in the city of Medina, the current situation in the Middle East may have something to do with our colonial past. Is my noble friend also aware that Islam does not allow sheikhdoms and kingdoms and that any change introduced in the middle eastern Muslim world has to be slow and must fit in with the customs of the region?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, my noble friend is a much greater authority on Islamic history than I could ever be, and he has a deeper understanding of the Koran. However, what I will say is that today there are many women entrepreneurs in Saudi Arabia, of whom several are running highly successful businesses. Many of those women would like to see some moves towards freeing up entrepreneurial life so that women can work more freely with men in the workplace and play a fuller part not only in the commercial life of the country, but also in its political life.
The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that certain traditions in Saudi society, such as consultation and involving the local population in decision making, are relevant to our attempt to spoon-feed the Middle East with our own notions of democracy?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I must say to the noble Earl that I object absolutely to the notion that this country is trying to spoon-feed the Middle East. During the past six or seven weeks, I have travelled very extensively all around the Middle East. Everywhere I went I said that if reform is to be embraced, it must be embraced at a pace which is suitable to the country concerned and that one size does not fit all. The position of the United Kingdom on these issues is highly appreciated in the Middle East and the approach that has been adopted by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is well understood.
NATO
Lord Blaker asked Her Majesty's Government:
21 Mar 2005 : Column 10Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, NATO is the cornerstone of our collective defence. In the view of Her Majesty's Government, it is the essential forum for security consultation and co-operation between Europe and North America. NATO is adapting to the new security challenges, significantly for example in the operations undertaken in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan, and the planned training for the Iraqi security forces. But more work is needed on budgetary and structural reforms to strengthen NATO's role in strategic and political consultation and to promote co-operation among the allies.
Lord Blaker: My Lords, I am grateful for that reply, with which I broadly agree. But has not the time come when NATO should consider more carefully what it is for and how it should operate in the future? For example, problems arise regarding whether NATO agrees with the vision of President Bush on bringing democracy to the Middle East. The noble Baroness has just spoken very eloquently about that area. Will there be consultation between all NATO members and joint decision-making, or must we accept that the pattern of the future will consist of the United States backed up by coalitions of the willing?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I hope that is not the case. A tremendous amount of discussion is going on in NATO at the moment on the future of the alliance and the way it can modernise. The alliances include Partnership for Peace, the alliances of the Mediterranean Dialogue to bring in some of the countries that are outside NATO but around the Mediterranean rim, and the Istanbul dialogue, which seeks to draw in the countries of the Gulf. On a recent visit to one of the countries of the Gulf I was asked why a particular country had been asked to join NATO but others had not. It was a misconception on the part of my interlocutor, but that gives a fairly good impression of how people view NATO. Further, individual partnership action plans operate in central Asia. The noble Lord needs to look at what dialogue is already taking place within NATO structures and to look at the challenges for the future, not the challenges of the Cold War era.
Lord Garden: My Lords, does the Minister share the concerns that were expressed to me last week at NATO headquarters by a series of officials during briefings regarding the current state of NATO/EU relationships? Does she see any way forward in solving the problems, which are twofold: the Turkish approach to Cyprus and the Maltese approach to NATO?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I am fairly vigilant regarding the NATO/EU relationship. This is a question to which your Lordships like returning, and it is a question, no doubt, that will arise when we next discuss the EU constitution. However, in my view, NATO is not only the cornerstone of our security but is also the only organisation that operates for collective defence in Europe. The emergence of the
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EU as a force in regard to the Petersberg tasks is very much to be welcomed but it is very much a case of undertaking operations when NATO chooses not to be engaged. That is the important point.
Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister accept that many of us are very heartened by her robust defence of NATO? Does she appreciate that whenever there is trouble in the world—and she listed several countries in that regard—the first cry is, "Send in NATO"? While it is important that we have the military hardware to resist any offensive action, it is equally important that we spread a climate of understanding and good will. That is precisely what NATO is doing in its partnership with more than 20 countries.
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