MONDAY 25 JUNE 2007

MS EVE RANK AND MR MARK SHRIMPTON

  Q27  Chairman: We are now joined by Eve Rank, who is a Disability Rights Commissioner, and by Mark Shrimpton, who is the Assistant Director, Legal and Operations for the Disability Rights Commission. Welcome to both. Thank you for coming to give evidence this afternoon. Perhaps I could start off by asking Mark do you think that the introduction of the Disability Equality Duty has made any difference to the way people with learning disabilities are treated?

  Mr Shrimpton: I am largely during this session going to be supporting Eve and I will expect her to answer most of the questions, and I think she has indeed got something to say. If that is okay with the Committee, I will pass over to Eve.

  Ms Rank: Some local authorities do not know about the Disability Equality Duty. For example, last week I had alterations done to my bathroom, because my husband is disabled, and I am disabled a little bit for the next six weeks. I asked about the equality duty and asked if he was involved with people with learning disabilities and he did not know what it was. That is the Adaptations Manager. I also asked somebody from Bedfordshire social services this morning and they did not know. So in that context, I do not think anybody professional is not working for people with learning difficulties because professional people do not know about it. However, it has only just recently come into force, since December, so it is early days to tell whether it is working or not but it is great fun asking the people who I know if they know about it. I think it is really important that they do involve people with learning difficulties in their equality schemes. The one problem they might have is that they do not know how to do it, because it is the first time they have got to involve people, so they need training, and the only people to give this training to get people involved are the people with learning difficulties themselves, because they are the experts.

  Q28  Chairman: When the Government reviews the Valuing People document later this year, what do you think the Government should do?

  Ms Rank: I think they should involve people with learning difficulties to see what they think about the review of Valuing People. I think they also need to go back and have a look at what they were saying years ago, or what we were saying years ago, because I was part of the advisory group. Although Valuing People has done good things, there are still some gaps. For instance, it needs to look at employment for people with learning difficulties because that was one of the big areas, and there are still too many people with learning difficulties on Incapacity Benefit. There are some people in work but there need to be more. Also, there are some people with learning difficulties that are not on the Minimum Wage, that still get paid in shopping vouchers, etc. They also need to look at the issues, again, particularly around carers. The reason why I am saying this is because more carers with learning difficulties are coming on board as their parents are getting older. In Valuing People it highlights carers but it is not carers with learning difficulties. They have got a family carers network but who do people with learning difficulties go to? They do not have anything at all.

  Q29  Lord Lester of Herne Hill: You told us in your evidence that advocacy services should go far beyond the independent mental incapacity advocacy service. What would holistic advocacy services do for a person with learning disabilities?

  Ms Rank: There is a basic answer to that. It is supposed to advocate for people with learning difficulties, but I think what would help are things like peer support, Circle of Friends. I believe that there is not enough money to go round to give advocates, but sometimes people with learning difficulties can advocate for people, and that has been happening. I have known that to happen. I advocate for some of my friends, so I know it is happening, although I do know as well that organisations should also put their leaflets, etc, into Easy Read and to promote Easy Read, to also help with form filling, because benefit forms are not easy and somebody with a learning difficulty might want an advocate then. That would help. Also, for example, I know in Bedfordshire our lead Commissioner for learning disability dishes out money for Advocacy Alliance just on training, but there is no advocacy money. They should be given a budget that is spread out between training and advocacy, so I think the local authorities might have some responsibility there.

  Q30  Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I do not know whether Mr Shrimpton wants to add to that?

  Mr Shrimpton: No, I will leave it to Eve, thank you.

  Q31  Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Thank you very much for that. You told us also about the importance of support from advocates to make a complaint. If an advocate is not available, is there any other way to help make it easier for people with learning disabilities to make complaints?

  Ms Rank: For instance, again, if you have a complaint against social services—that is just an example—their complaints procedure is not easy, and it should be in Easy Read, because if we have the information but we can understand it, there is no point in giving it to us because it is absolutely useless. So I think, again, Easy Read to promote it.

  Mr Shrimpton: Earlier on we were talking about the confusion about precisely what advocacy services are, and there are some lower levels that certainly are not advocacy. If authorities open up their process in the way that Eve has described, talking about Easy Read and promotion of the availability of those materials, mere assistance with the form filling can often be extremely helpful. That is not advocacy; that is purely an administrative task, but it can be enormously helpful in opening up systems.

  Q32  Lord Lester of Herne Hill: That is also included in guidance and support by the Disability Rights Commission, as I understand it.

  Mr Shrimpton: Absolutely, yes.

  Q33  Nia Griffith: The Disability Rights Commission say that sometimes consultations are sham events, because people do not have enough time to respond. How can we make sure that such activities really do take into account the needs of people with learning disabilities, their views and opinions?

  Ms Rank: We think planning. It should be planned properly. You must know that you have consultation out probably months in advance. For example, there was loads of consultation on the Mental Capacity Act; there was loads of consultation about that. There was a deadline, although I cannot remember what it was, but it was probably needed for next week or the week after. That is too quick. You need at least three months' notice. You would know when that is coming up, so authorities and organisations should plan consultations and get the Easy Read version out.

  Mr Shrimpton: One of the issues that Eve mentioned on this question earlier on was that, in answer to how the Government or other authorities can make sure their activities are taken into account, the Disability Equality Duty is now there; they actually have a duty to do that, so it is something they should have been actively pursuing and involving people with learning disabilities in their activities for the last six months.

  Ms Rank: Yes.

  Q34  Nia Griffith: What happens if a decision has to be made very quickly? What could be done then to make sure that we include people with learning disabilities?

  Ms Rank: I think they should never be a quick timing, because with forward planning, as Mark has said, the Disability Equality Duty should come into force. I have had problems in past experience with consultations, especially, for example, if you have a day centre that may be closing and Joe Bloggs does not want to go to Fairfields day centre; he wants to go somewhere else, so they have this consultation day but the problem is they have already decided what they are going to do, so it is tokenistic; it is not consultation at all. They have just thought "We will go in there and say what we have got to say" and that is it. It becomes very tokenistic.

  Q35  Nia Griffith: Can you perhaps tell us if there is any way that we can make it easier for people with learning disabilities to vote?

  Ms Rank: The problem is that some residential care homes for people with learning difficulties actually take the voting cards away because they believe their residents do not understand the voting systems. I think it would be a good idea to monitor care homes to find out how many people with learning difficulties actually voted in the general election, and if they come back and say nobody has voted, you need to ask them why and if they say "Joe Bloggs won't understand", there is something that needs to be done. I think the Commission for Social Care Inspection should be able to monitor it within their inspections. Also, the Disability Rights Commission Learning Disability Action Group two years ago now did a pack on the right to vote. We have run a few training events, which were successful, so more people with learning difficulties did vote, because we did a mapping exercise. So there is the right to vote pack which you can get through the Internet. That could also be done through the Electoral Commission and people with learning disabilities should be able to work with the Electoral Commission, and the Social Care Inspectorate should be able to talk to them as well. On 10 July DRC is launching a campaign on how to get people with learning difficulties involved in becoming part of a political party, which will be launched here.

  Q36  Earl of Onslow: As you know, the new Commission for Equality and Human Rights absorbs the Disability Rights Commission and various other bodies. As you also probably know, some people in the learning disability world have some reservations about this. The CEHR will have a disability sub-committee chaired by Lady Campbell. Do you think the new CEHR will be able to understand the human rights and equality issues facing people with learning disabilities? Should they have a learning disability action group like yours?

  Ms Rank: I am going to split that question into two parts. Your first question was whether I think the CEHR will understand people with learning difficulties. I personally think not, if they do not have anybody with learning difficulties on board, because I believe that if they do not have anyone with experience of a learning disability, they do not know, because they have not been in that position.

  Q37  Earl of Onslow: May I suggest you are angling for a job? I am only joking!

  Ms Rank: No. Also, in the fact of the Learning Disability Action Group, yes, because the reason why I am saying that is because there have been some changes. I cannot say the word. He has come up with a big word.

  Mr Shrimpton: Colossal changes. When the group considered these papers at the last meeting in February, they considered they had made huge changes, not just in the sphere of the statutory sector and public delivery but also in the private business world, in the banking industry and other areas as well. The group's feeling was that, if its work was lost, not necessarily through the same membership, but if that focus was lost within the new Commission, then learning disability issues will fall off the agenda, without a shadow of a doubt.

  Q38  Earl of Onslow: Have you met Lady Campbell?

  Ms Rank: I know Jane. She is one of our Commissioners.

  Q39  Earl of Onslow: Do you reckon she is strong enough to take it up and make sure it works?

  Ms Rank: I have spoken to Jane and she said she wants to get a committee on board first and then she will let us know.

  Mr Shrimpton: But I suspect more power she has behind her from, for example, what emerges from this Committee, the better.