MR WAYNE DAVID MP, MR GETH WILLIAMS AND MS SUSAN OLLEY

14 JANUARY 2010

  Q40  Chairman: Perhaps I can turn now to Matter 5.2C and training bodies. Paragraph (ii) of Matter 5.2C appears in the current draft not to be limited to education. Should the words "in support of education and training" be added?

  Mr David: Matter 5.2C(a) would allow for the establishment of bodies to carry out the functions on behalf of local education authorities. This means that it is the LEAs' function and it is thus limited to educational functions. As a consequence of that, it is our judgment that the wording "in support of education and training" are not needed. They would be superfluous.

  Q41  Chairman: In paragraph (i) of Matter 5.2C, should the Matter be specifically confined to education and training in maintained schools? We are looking for some more clarity, I think, in the wording there.

  Mr David: With regard to maintained schools, we are talking about the overwhelming majority of schools in Wales. I think the figure is that some 97% will be covered by the Order, so it is very comprehensive in the way it is currently worded.

  Q42  Chairman: In paragraph (b) what does "involvement" mean? Could that not be expressed in a more precise manner?

  Mr David: Matter 5.2C allows for a Measure to be made that would establish a body to carry out initiatives in relation to education and training or to exercise functions on behalf of local education authorities. Once such a body is established, it follows that those who have established it need to be able to be involved with the body (that is, participate in the body that has been established); for example, by providing staff or investing in the body formed. That is what is meant by "involvement".

  Q43  Chairman: Thank you. In the proposed Matter 5.2B, what is the widest possible scope for collaboration in terms of those who could be involved in collaborating? We have talked about governing bodies. Would education authorities themselves be covered in that definition of collaboration?

  Mr David: My understanding is that it is deliberately intended to be very wide. It could, for example, include, as you say, governing bodies, but also education authorities, Welsh Ministers, or Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Schools. It is not intended to be restricted in any way, but it is intended to ensure that the definition is as wide as is practicable.

  Chairman: Thank you.

  Q44  Hywel Francis: To turn now to local government, what are the overall consequences of the LCO in terms of the potential increased burdens on local government?

  Mr David: The LCO itself, of course, does not create any kind of burden for local authorities at all. LCOs by their very definition are facilitating instruments for future Measures. It is true to say that, as always, but particularly in this case, the Welsh Assembly Government will be mindful of its need to have maximum co-operation in any Measures that are forthcoming, and of course there will be a proper Regulatory Impact Assessment which will look at any potential—and I emphasise the word "potential"—costs which may arise from any Measure it comes forward with.

  Q45  Chairman: Cross-border issues. To what extent have you evaluated the risk that divergent governance models in England and Wales will cause confusion amongst parents, governors and professionals who for whatever reason have to have contact with different models of governance?

  Mr David: I do not believe there is any real possibility here of confusion. Already there are different approaches towards education and the matters we are considering this morning on either side of Offa's Dyke. For example, we can look at differences between England and Wales when we look at the curriculum, quite obviously. Also, with regard to Wales, in Wales there still is a responsibility for governors to ensure that an annual report is prepared for parents and there is also a stipulation for an annual governors' meeting, and those measures do not currently exist in England. So there is already a significant difference of emphasis. The feedback that the Welsh Assembly Government has is that, at present, the arrangement does not create any real difficulty, and I do not think that any Measures which stem from this LCO will raise any difficulties whatsoever.

  Q46  Chairman: I think I can predict the answer to this, but what are the wider implications of the LCO in UK budgetary terms?

  Mr David: There are no budgetary implications for the United Kingdom.

  Chairman: My silent prediction was right. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your evidence this morning.