UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 678-ii

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

WELSH AFFAIRS COmmittee

the proposed national assembly for wales (Legislative competence)(ENVIRONMENT) order 2009

thursDAY 25 june 2009

MR WAYNE DAVID MP, MR GETH WILLIAMS and MR JAMES GEORGE

Evidence heard in Public Questions 79 - 117

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee

on Thursday 25 June 2009

Members present

Mr Martyn Jones, in the Chair

Dr Hwyel Francis

Mr David Jones

Alun Michael

Albert Owen

________________

In the absence of the Chairman, Mr Martyn Jones was called to the chair

Witnesses: Mr Wayne David, a member of the House, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr Geth Williams, Head of Legislation Policy, and Mr James George, Legal Adviser, Wales Office, gave evidence.

Q79 Mr Martyn Jones: Good morning, Minister. I am glad to see you this morning. I have to say that we are very tight for a quorum, so we are going to have to really go for it; we need to be finished by half-past ten if at all possible. I am sure we can do it. You are known for your succinct answers, are you not? The first question is, in what ways will this LCO allow the Welsh Assembly Government to develop a more effective, holistic approach to waste management and other environmental issues than present powers allow?

Mr David: First of all, I would like to say that it is a pleasure to be here; it is nice to appear with my colleagues. In direct response to your question, I think that the essence of this draft Legislative Competence Order is to give power to the National Assembly for Wales to legislate regarding waste on land and to protect and improve the environment regarding pollution and to protect and improve the environment regarding nuisances in Wales, and they will do that by inserting three new measures into Field 6 of Part 1 of Schedule 5 of the Government of Wales Act, 2006.

Q80 Mr David Jones: The Welsh Assembly Government of course already has extensive devolved competence in this area. What will this proposed Order allow the Welsh Assembly Government to do that it cannot do with those existing powers?

Mr David: The first point I would make is that you are correct in saying that the Welsh Assembly Government has extensive current powers with regard to the environment. I think it is important to mention that, in the first Government of Wales Act, there was a clear reference to the importance of the environment and sustainability and things have followed from that, and we have seen over the last few years a whole raft of very strong and coherent policy statements by the Welsh Assembly Government. Nevertheless, there is a feeling that there is a need for greater coherence and a more holistic approach, as the explanatory memorandum says, with regard to intra-environment policy generally. Specifically of course, it is up to the Welsh Assembly Government to decide which measures would come about as a consequence of the LCO and we fully appreciate that, but it is possible that a number of Measures could be brought forward to the Welsh Assembly Government if they so wish and I can give a few hypothetical possibilities. For example, there could be a ban on certain materials from landfill. That is something which is not I understand possible under the current legislative regime but under the LCO a Measure could be brought forward to facilitate that. Another example is that the Assembly, if it so wished, could place a duty on local authorities to collect recyclable material from business in Wales.

Q81 Mr David Jones: Does it need such broad powers or would a more focused LCO possibly be more appropriate?

Mr David: I think that the LCO is quite specific really. Reference has been made elsewhere now to the number of very clear and very precise exceptions that there are to it and I think that one of the reasons why we do have such a large number of exceptions clearly defined and very precise is to make sure that the LCO is extremely precise and can pinpoint which issues need to be addressed but also that it reinforces rather than extends and goes beyond the current devolution settlement.

Q82 Alun Michael: I would like to explore an issue in terms of those powers. The Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act places a lot of powers in the hands of local authorities. In the case of Wales, the implementation of all of that, I believe I am correct in saying, was and is a matter for the Welsh Assembly.

Mr David: You mentioned the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005, which I know you were intimately involved with and is of tremendous importance, which does, as I understand it, give significant powers to local authorities, town and community councils in particular to tackle a number of local nuisances. However, I would make the point that that piece of legislation came forward in 2005 before the Government of Wales Act 2006 and therefore the powers that were vested in Cardiff Bay were vested in the Assembly before you had the division which the 2006 Act introduced between the executive, the Government and the Assembly as a whole. One of the things which will happen as a consequence of this LCO is that this will enhance the power of the Assembly rather than the ministers who have many of the powers which are devolved to it. That is the first point I would make and the second point that I would make is that although it is a very powerful and useful piece of legislation, nevertheless I think that the Assembly Government would like to enhance the powers in a number of areas and it is possible that they may wish to come forward with Measures for example which would ensure that councils(?) had responsibility with litter being discharged from their vehicles. Another example would be regard to graffiti. Although there are Measures in the Neighbourhood Act 2005 with regard to graffiti, I do not think there are any specific Measures which would allow the Assembly to introduce Measures restricting the sale to groups or individuals. If the Assembly so wished, they could do it with the LCO.

Q83 Alun Michael: Would it be true to say therefore that the benefit would be that the Assembly would have the flexibility on how it deals with those issues for which it already has the administrative responsibilities?

Mr David: Yes. I think that the emphasis is broadening, if you like, the executive powers which to a large extent the Assembly already has. So, as well as extending those powers in democratising it, there is the issue however of taking those powers a stage further.

Mr Williams: Just to clarify, it is the Welsh Ministers who currently have the powers. What this LCO would do is confer competence on the Assembly.

Q84 Alun Michael: In terms of the legislative framework within which that happens.

Mr Williams: Yes.

Q85 Alun Michael: I think that is clear and thank you for that. You used one word in your comments, Minister, which was reference to nuisance and there have been questions about the use of the word "nuisance" in the legislation. Are their acts or omissions in relation to Matter 6.3 in relation to nuisance that are different to what is already encompassed in Matters 6.1 and 6.2 in relation to waste management and pollution?

Mr Williams: For example, we would not see graffiti as being pollution or billposting or fly posting as being pollution. There are elements that are clearly local nuisances that could not be bracketed in the area of pollution.

Mr Martyn Jones: Could everyone speak up a little, please.

Q86 Alun Michael: Is the definition of nuisance in the LCO in accordance with common understandings of the term? Are there are likely problems with the use of the word in the draft that might emerge in the future?

Mr George: The wording is intended to capture what falls within the scope of common law nuisance and statutory nuisance at the moment. We do not foresee a problem. It deliberately excludes what is pollution, so that it does not overlap with Matter 6.2. As my colleagues have said, there is a range of Matters that would only fall within the nuisance matter.

Q87 Alun Michael: I think that that is quite a helpful response and may I repeat that back to you as I understood it. It incorporates anything that would fall within common law definitions of nuisance and statutory definitions of nuisance as things stand at the moment. Mr George: It does but at the moment common law and statutory nuisance would include some things which would not be regarded as pollution as well and we have excluded pollution from the definitions it uses here because we have a different range of exceptions from the nuisance competence as compared to the pollution competence and that is reflecting the fact that Welsh Ministers have very broad powers over pollution and they have far more restricted powers in relation to things like statutory nuisance.

Q88 Alun Michael: Thank you. That is helpful. There is a great deal of EU legislation in this whole area and you are perhaps the most appropriate minister in view of your background to be commenting on that.

Mr David: I thought you might say that!

Q89 Alun Michael: There is obviously a demanding schedule for transposing directives and a lot of things there. How great is the scope and how readily available are the resources of the Welsh Assembly Government to make any extensive use of further legislative powers?

Mr David: First of all, you are correct in emphasising the importance of European legislation in this regard and sometimes the assumption is made that somehow European directives and regulations are not part of this equation but they very much are and they establish that framework within which not only the Welsh Assembly Government but the British Government have to operate. With regard to the other points you are making, I would emphasise the fact that it is necessary to ensure that all aspects of the legislation are fully complementary and taken into account and I think one of the strengths of this LCO is that it is very much based on the policy and strategic considerations which have been developed by the Assembly over a period of time. It is true to say that the Assembly has not embarked upon a detailed consultation as to what Measures they would like to see coming from this LCO but I think that we have had clear assurances from the Minister, Jane Davidson - and I am sure that she will give those when she appears in front of your Committee - that this is regarded as one of the political priorities of the Assembly as well as having a commitment as a result of the initial Government of Wales Act, the One Wales Agreement, and clearly highlights the importance of introducing Measures to protect and enhance the environment and we have had assurances that resources will be brought forward to make real not only the legislation which emanates from this but also its implementation as well.

Q90 Alun Michael: May I return to the question of definitions. The proposed Order contains definitions for a large number of the terms used. Is that necessary? Is it appropriate? Can you tell us why some technical terms have been defined within the proposed Order while others have not.

Mr David: I would simply say to begin with in general terms that this is an extremely complicated Legislative Competence Order as you will appreciate and a tremendous amount of policy and legal work has gone into it. A tremendous amount of care in particular has gone in with regard to the definitions which were employed. For example, we referred a moment ago to the European framework within which we are operating and that has a legal bearing on some of the terminology which is employed but also with regard to existing domestic legislation which is also a consideration.

Q91 Alun Michael: There are some peripheral terms that are perhaps used once or twice and, particularly in relation to those, would it not be better, rather than defining them afresh, to cross-refer to definitions used in other legislation for example?

Mr George: The approach that we have taken is to take definitions from other legislation where they are appropriate, but we have tried to avoid referring to other legislation and that is generally the approach that we try to take with Matters in general to try and avoid either definitions becoming out of date or to make sure that Schedule 5 is as self-contained as it can be.

Q92 Alun Michael: If there is an amendment to a definition in other legislation perhaps as a result of a new European directive or fresh primary legislation, does that mean that the phraseology in this order could be left stranded and become out of date?

Mr George: It could do and it is something that we need to monitor and ensure that that does not happen where we want to update. Equally, there is a problem where a definition becomes out of date or alternatively the competence of the Assembly could end up being changed fairly arbitrarily by other legislative developments that have nothing to do with the Welsh Assembly Government.

Mr David: I think that that is an important and valid point. For example, we have the Marine and Coastal Access Bill currently going through Parliament and the relationship between that and this LCO is obviously very, very close. I think that certain assumptions are made in the terminology which is employed in the LCO which perhaps presupposes what we expect Parliament will agree. Nevertheless, we have to make sure that we have that close relationship and we will be monitoring that particular example very closely through its passage in Parliament.

Q93 Albert Owen: You mentioned that this was complex and you also mentioned Matter 6.1 and, looking at the long list of Matters that are not included in the regulation, you talk about the exclusion of regulation of postal service provision in Matter 6.1 and, in 6.2, we have the renewable transport fuel obligation and exclusion of the regulation of the component and composition of transport fuel. Why do you need to mention that? What are specific about these issues? What environmental damage would be done by the postal service?

Mr David: I think it is important to be precise because of in part what I have just said. We are aware for example that there is a piece of legislation going through the House regarding postal services, so that inter-relationship between what has been proposed in this LCO and currently developing legislation is very important. May I also make the point that one of the reasons why this draft LCO is so complicated is because it covers a whole raft of different policy areas and has a clear relationship with a number of government departments and I think that a great deal of care after consultation with a whole raft of central governments departments has taken place to make sure that the terminologies employed are as precise as they can possibly be. Also, great care has been taken to make sure that the draft LCO reflects the current devolution settlement and does not inadvertently perhaps challenge or take it further into areas which were not intended and that is why the exceptions are so precise. There are floating exceptions and more specific exceptions but great care has been taken to make sure that there is the greatest precision as we can possibly achieve.

Mr Williams: Postal services are very clearly non-devolved. That exception is there to make sure that, in the context of Wales, the Welsh Assembly Government could legislate to for example limit the amount of packaging that could go through the postal system. Post is a non-devolved area of policy and that is why we have that exception.

Q94 Albert Owen: But the product is paper, is it not? The waste would be paper.

Mr Williams: The issue is packaging.

Q95 Albert Owen: You mentioned that it was complex and, reading it, I query the need for all these things. May we move on the Government of Wales Act. Many of these Matters are caught up in the general restrictions there. For example, health and safety regulations have been specifically exempted from this proposed Order. Is such a practice necessary or appropriate in an LCO?

Mr David: Health and safety for example is clearly a non-devolved area and, to avoid any confusion or ambiguity, things have been spelt out as precisely as possible. Admittedly, it is quiet laborious to read a whole list of exceptions and sometimes, to a lay person like myself who is not a lawyer, some of it might seem quite tedious. Nevertheless, it is very, very important to be as precise and as specific as one can possibly be.

Q96 Albert Owen: In answer to Alun Michael, you touched on the European dimension and the UK dimension. There is not very much left. Why not specifically put what the Order does cover so that it is clear for everyone?

Mr David: I think that it does but it is very easy to talk about the environment as a clearly defined area but, by its sheer nature, it is cross-cutting and multidimensional and making sure that all the different facets of it are as clearly defined as possible is helpful to every layer of government. I think that the last thing that the Welsh Assembly would want is to be in a position where it spent a great deal of time developing a policy and therefore trying to introduce legislation only to find at the end of the day that it was not possible to do what they wanted to do. The approach has been to be as prescriptive and as clear as possible right at the outset with this LCO to make sure that there is no future confusion.

Q97 Albert Owen: Is that why it has taken so long?

Mr David: That is one of the reasons, yes. I think that this is the most complicated LCO that has come forward so far and a great deal of negotiation has taken place through a whole range of different departments. We are talking of policy areas with regard to business, energy and health and safety. There is a whole raft of different policy areas which at first glance might not have an automatic relationship to each other but nevertheless could be in broad terms regarded as environmental in one way or the other. I think that is one of the reasons why it has taken so long to come to this point. It also has to be said too that this was one of the first draft LCOs put forward by the Welsh Assembly Government and, unlike the case now, there was not at that time any attempt to get the support of government departments. The Welsh Assembly Government simply published what they wanted. So, the negotiations began from that point and what we are seeing now is a great deal of negotiations prior to publication taking place which makes sure that the draft LCO commands much greater support and has a greater degree of clarity right from the start. We are very much in that learning process. It is easy to be wise with the benefit of hindsight, nevertheless I think that everybody involved in this process is learning from it and making the LCO streamlined as we go along.

Q98 Mr Martyn Jones: Minister, you mentioned floating exceptions. With specific reference to Fields 4, 10 and 19 - Field 4 is economic development, 19 is flood defence and 10 is matters of transport I think - why have specific exceptions been included in those fields which have not been otherwise affected by this Order? In particular, why are exceptions necessary under Fields 4 and 19 which at present contain no Matters to which these exceptions could apply?

Mr David: To begin with, there are fixed exceptions which apply to certain specific areas but there are also floating exceptions which apply across the board and I think that that is the fundamental difference. A great deal of negotiation and a great deal of care has been taken to make sure that the exceptions are as totally construed as they can possibly be.

Mr Williams: Floating exceptions are not currently included in Schedule 5; there is a draft Order that we will present to Parliament shortly that will bring them into effect. The reason for floating exceptions is that there are some policy areas that are quite clearly non-devolved and which are very likely to remain non-devolved in the near and immediate term and it only makes sense to make them floating exceptions so that all Matters in Schedule 5 are exempt and the Assembly would not be able to legislate in relation to them. In relation to this particular Order, one of the reasons why we have so many exceptions is that particularly waste and pollution range across a whole number of policy areas and they include water and they include energy and that is why we have needed to include those exceptions in this Order.

Q99 Alun Michael: It does make it quite challenging to understand and I am wrestling with this a little bit. In a way, I suppose you are defining a whole by its edges and that means that you have a definition of what it is not. In other words, what is outside that boundary rather than inside. Traditionally, memoranda that come with any piece of legislation of any size or any scope at any level are singularly unhelpful because the advice of the lawyers is to make it so boring and similar to the actual Measure that you do not risk inadvertently misleading. Once this is through, is it the intention to write a nice simple description of what the whole is? In other words, having got the legislation right so that it does what is intended, to provide something that is much simpler for us poor mortals to understand.

Mr David: If that were the case, I would certainly welcome it! It is very complicated and I think that it would be generally very, very helpful to have the views of the Committee on this point. Work is going on.

Q100 Alun Michael: If I may just push that point slightly, I think that the first piece of secondary legislation I dealt with in the Assembly was extremely complex and, at the end of a long discussion, I asked again, "Please, tell me what difference will this make?" and the answer was, "None. It merely transposes all the complications from one piece of educational legislation into the new Act". You clearly could not legislate in terms of that one sentence summary, "We will everything we did in that Act in this Act" although it would be nice if we could but, a description of what it was actually doing, that was a lot more useful. I merely offer that as something that perhaps the Wales Office might like to discuss.

Mr David: It is something we will think about.

Q101 Alun Michael: I would like to ask about another term that is used which you described as "carve outs" in the explanatory memorandum. Can you confirm that these exceptions do not confer legislative powers, particularly where reference is made simply to "protection of the environment", with no reference specifically to waste or to pollution or to nuisance.

Mr David: The term "carve out" is used I think on a number of occasions. As this is very, very complicated, my understanding is that it is necessary to on occasion establish what has been the general position but then specify where there might be very small exceptions. One of the examples which spring to mind is with regard to radioactive and nuclear waste, for example. I think that there is a floating or general exception for nuclear waste and that is widely understood but there is very low level waste. My understanding is that that can be transported when part of other general waste matters. In other words, a very specific exception, a carve out if you like, and it has been necessary to introduce that to make it absolutely clear what is generally not permissible but what in specific terms might be.

Mr Williams: Just to be sensible in policy terms as well. If there is very low level waste in household waste or in hospital waste for example, the Assembly could legislate about it.

Q102 Alun Michael: That makes sense.

Mr George: Generally, where we have a carve out from an exception, that does not in itself give the Assembly competence. The Measure would still have to relate to the original Matter which I think is what you were driving at. The provision would still have to be protecting the environment in relation to, say, pollution or nuisances. It might then be outside competence but within an exception on the basis that it related to something like aviation or what-have-you.

Q103 Alun Michael: So, you would not be creating a new power. What you would be saying is, commonsense says that this falls within waste or nuisance.

Mr George: With the floating exceptions when there is a carve out, the carve out may or may not be relevant to the pollution of air. So, it is legislation about pollution or waste. The carve out may bring it back within competence if they are relevant to the Matter in the first place.

Q104 Albert Owen: There are a number of words being used here, but may I go back to Matter 6.1, preventing, reducing, collecting, managing, treating or disposing of waste in Wales. You do not use the word "recycling". Do you think that the word "recycling" would be beneficial? It is what business does. It is a buzz word. It is easy to understand.

Mr David: To you and me that might be a sensible suggestion, but I have been assured that the terminology which is used in 6.1, preventing, reducing, collecting, managing, treating or disposing of waste et cetera, et cetera, would, by strong implication in a legal sense, include recycling. So, it is covered quite clearly but it is not spelt out in lay persons' terms as we would like it.

Q105 Albert Owen: I can understand "reducing" which might mean recycling as well, but I just thought that it would be a beneficial word for business to understand more clearly.

Mr David: Perhaps there is an argument to take up Mr Michael's point but it is one thing having a Legislative Competence Order which legally spells out what can be done, but I think that there is a strong case to be made for making sure that you have accompanying or as a consequence of this a straightforward text in lay persons' terms in order that everyone can understand what is meant by the terminology which is applied.

Mr Williams: That term might not be clear enough and we can certainly look at beefing that up.

Mr George: I think we would feel that there would be a danger if we started listing too many things.

Q106 Albert Owen: I am sorry, I cannot hear.

Mr George: We would think that there would be a danger if we started listing too many things, but you could start ---

Q107 Albert Owen: The environment agenda goes on about recycling and everybody knows about it and it means reducing and keeping it away from landfill sites. The other issue that I am still not clear on is this radioactive waste. Would radioactive waste still be included within the scope of the proposed Order? I think you mentioned low-level household waste but obviously nuclear installations and military bases would be exempt because it is dealt with elsewhere, but the vast majority of low level, as you indicated, is domestic and from hospitals. Would this be covered in the Order?

Mr Williams: Very low-level radioactive waste would be covered in the context of its collection or its disposal et cetera. What the Assembly could not legislate on is transporting radioactive material if the Assembly Measure was about radioactive material. However, what they could do is legislate about the transport of waste in general terms and that might include very low-level waste from hospitals, households, et cetera.

Q108 Albert Owen: Let me be clear. Health is a devolved matter; hospitals have radioactive waste. Transport is a devolved matter. Transportation of low-level medical waste would be covered by the Assembly.

Mr Williams: There is a specific exception in this Order which is on page 9 which covers the carriage of dangerous goods including transport of radioactive material. That exception means that the Assembly could not legislate about transporting radioactive material full stop, but they could legislate about transporting waste and, if that waste happened to include some elements of very low-level radioactive waste, that would be permissible within the concept of the Measure.

Mr David: That is an important point with regard to medical research facilities, for example.

Q109 Albert Owen: How do you define low level? What would your definition of low level be specifically borne out by the UK Government and at what levels can it and can it not be transported? It would be very helpful to put that into the Order so that it is very clear. I am still not clear. You said waste that may contain radioactive materials. Taking X-rays that have been used in a hospital are clearly going to have radioactivity in them.

Mr Williams: Would it be helpful if we wrote ---

Q110 Albert Owen: I think so. We need clarification because we have asked a number of witnesses and they have not been clear in their answers.

Mr David: My understanding is - and this issue has arisen during discussion - that there are clearly accepted definitions in a technical sense of what is low level but, if it would be helpful, we can spell it out in writing.

Albert Owen: Minister, you know that I have no problem with radioactive waste because 99% of it is low active and relatively safe, but it is unclear in this Order as to what is.

Q111 Mr Martyn Jones: Thank you. That would be useful. Moving on, would the proposed Order provide the National Assembly with powers to bring forward Measures in relation to producer responsibility? Would that convey on the Assembly the ability to put responsibility on producers for waste reduction et cetera?

Mr David: What I understand your question is inferring is the principle that the person who produces the pollution must have responsibility for it, the producer pays principle, and I think that is quite fundamental to the approach that the Assembly has adopted from the earliest days and I imagine, although this perhaps would be more appropriately directed at Jane Davidson, her response would be that we would want to make sure that the legislation reinforces that policy perspective which has been well established.

Q112 Mr Martyn Jones: So, from your point of view, it is likely that they will have the power and we will ask her if she wants to comment. Also, does the proposed Order give the National Assembly for Wales sufficient powers to tackle issues relating to climate change, such as reduction of greenhouse gases?

Mr David: I think the important point to emphasise here is that we are talking about a Welsh Legislative Competence Order but tackling the problems which are blighting the environment are international in character and I think that we have seen policy statements from the Assembly which reinforces what has been agreed at Kyoto for example and what has been agreed at the European level and I think that we are likely to see Measures being introduced at a Welsh level which will enhance those international agreements rather than something which would necessarily be apart from them. We have been talking about implementation at a local level of Measures which have been agreed more wisely and I think that that is likely to be the thrust of the Welsh Assembly Government's continuing approach.

Q113 Albert Owen: Concerns have been expressed regarding waste disposal at sea and, as you are aware, the Marine Bill had its second reading this week and that contains Measures to allow Welsh Ministers to legislate in this area. I am sure that this is an easy question to answer but do you think that the process Welsh Assembly Government should have waited for the Marine Bill to pass and come into law because those Measures may be devolved anyway?

Mr David: I think that a great deal of care has been taken to follow the discussions which have taken place with regard to the Marine Bill and I think, as I hinted at earlier, this LCO does make certain assumptions that agreement will be reached regarding the Marine Bill and this has a particular bearing with regard to, if you like, how we define Wales with regard to marine areas. I think that there is an important (?) taking place. However, I think it is true to say that the Welsh Assembly Government would have been extremely reluctant to have delayed things by waiting for one piece of legislation. As we mentioned earlier, to get to this point, we have already taken a great deal of time. This has been the longest LCO in gestation that we have seen to date and I think that perhaps one of the things that may be discussed in the future is, given the complexity of the subject matter here and given the wide range of subject areas and central government departments that we are talking about, it may in fact be better in future to have legislation which is more specific and that will reduce, by definition, the complexity involved.

Q114 Albert Owen: I understand that but, with the Marine Bill, there has been pre-legislation consultation with which the Assembly Government has been involved. It has gone through the House of Lords; it has been approved in certain areas. The devolved issues were always going to happen between ministers, not just in the Welsh Assembly but with other devolved administrations. I just felt that there has been this delay thus far from when it was first drafted and yet the Bill could be passed within a matter of weeks and going to committee. So, there might be a case where it is hugely improved by the Marine Bill and you might have to amend this Order at a later stage.

Mr Williams: I think that we see the Bill and this Order moving forward together. This is a proposed Order. We will amend it as a result of scrutiny. A draft Order will not come forward until the autumn and the Costal Access Bill will at least be in its final stages through Parliament.

Q115 Albert Owen: Do you think that the Marine Bill could enhance this legislation?

Mr Williams: I think that the legislative powers have taken account of the Marine Bill and you can see that in some of the exceptions to 6.2 and 6.3.

Mr David: It is important to stress the point that Geth has made here that it has taken a long time to get to this point. Nevertheless, there is still plenty of time and room to modify things further either to take into account what changes there might be in legislation but also to see the opinion of this Committee and the opinion of the Welsh Assembly Committee as well.

Q116 Mr Martyn Jones: As you know, Minister, our Committee has been looking at cross-border issues in many areas. Are there any particular cross-border issues that you could identify in relation to the powers provided by this Order?

Mr David: I think that one of the important things that has happened to date is that there has been close co-operation with the Environment Agency in particular and I know that the Environment Agency has given evidence to your Committee as they have given evidence to the Welsh Assembly's Committee. For example, personally I have spoken to Chris Smith of the Environment Agency and one of the things that he feels has been very productive is the close co-operation which has taken place both side of office type with regard to the Environment Agency in particular. I think that it is the case that the Welsh Assembly Minister has taken a keen interest not only in developments in Britain as a whole but also international developments and I think that one of the key things which the Assembly wants to do is to make sure that any forthcoming legislation from the Welsh Assembly fits into that national and international framework.

Q117 Mr Martyn Jones: I move on to how the private sector might be affected by variation. Again, it is still the cross-border issue but the private sector specifically might be affected by variation in environmental regulation between England and Wales. Is this Order likely to increase the regulatory burden on the private sector in England and Wales?

Mr David: The LCO itself will not because the issue will be the legislation as a consequence of the LCO. It is true that there has not been a great deal of formal consultation regarding this LCO and that is because a big debate has taken place in Wales with regard to environmental strategy and the Assembly has a whole host of policy statements which bear testimony to that. I think however that there will be a need to have broad consultation on any specific LCOs which come forward particularly if any are likely to have an impact on business and there is an obligation on the Assembly to make sure that there is a regulatory impact assessment with regard to any measures which are coming forward and I think that we will have a firm commitment from the Welsh Assembly Government to that effect.

Mr Martyn Jones: Gentlemen, we have made it by half-past ten. That must be a record! We will expect the extra memorandum that you promised us and, if there is anything else that you wish to add to you answers today, we are very happy to receive them. Thank you very much.