UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 502-i

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

WELSH AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

ENGLISH LANGUAGE BROADCASTING IN WALES

Tuesday 5 May 2009

MR RHODRI WILLIAMS, MS SUE BALSOM and MR HYWEL WILIAM

MR JOHN WALTER JONES and MS IONA JONES

MR MICHAEL JERMEY and MR ELIS OWEN

MS MENNA RICHARDS, MR MARK BYFORD and MS CLARE HUDSON

Evidence heard in Public Questions 1 - 118

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee

on Tuesday 5 May 2009

Members present

Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair

Mr David Jones

Alun Michael

Albert Owen

Mark Pritchard

Hywel Williams

Mark Williams

________________

Witnesses: Mr Rhodri Williams, Director, Wales, Ms Sue Balsom, Content Board Member for Wales, and Mr Hywel Wiliam, Head of Broadcasting and Telecommunications, Wales, Ofcom, gave evidence.

Q1 Chairman: Good afternoon and welcome to this session of the Welsh Affairs Committee dealing with English language broadcasting in Wales. Could you for the record introduce yourselves, please, to the Committee?

Mr Williams: Good afternoon. I am Rhodri Williams, Ofcom's director in Wales.

Ms Balsom: I am Sue Balsom and I am the content board member on Ofcom for Wales.

Mr Wiliam: I am Hywel Wiliam, head of broadcasting and telecommunications for Wales, for Ofcom.

Q2 Chairman: What services can English language speakers in Wales expect to receive under the public service broadcasting regulations?

Mr Williams: The pertinent answer to that is less than they have been receiving in the past. If I can wind back to about 1982 when S4C was formed, the positive benefits of the establishment of S4C were not only for Welsh speaking viewers and those who wanted to watch programmes in Welsh in Wales and beyond but for the population of Wales as a whole because the slots that were vacated in the BBC1 Wales and the HTV Wales schedule, as it then was, became available for more programming in the English language. For many years, I think it would be fair to say that what was produced and the quality and variety of what was produced was on the increase. It is a subjective matter but probably around 1999 saw the high water in terms of what was available in English on both BBC1 and 2 Wales and on ITV. Since then there has been a slow decline which has most recently accelerated and that has led to a diminution of the output that has been available in particular on ITV1 in Wales and that is something that of course we flagged up in our first review of public service broadcasting back in 2004 and more recently in our second review of public service broadcasting that was concluded earlier this year. By now, audiences in Wales are missing out on the volume of programming that was available and also on the variety of programming that they have been used to in the past.

Q3 Mark Williams: You have talked about the acceleration of the problem. How immediate is the threat to the second voice in news broadcasting?

Ms Balsom: When Ofcom produced its first PSB review some four or five years ago, there was a lot of scepticism about the forecasts in that as to how rapid the decline might be given the unsustainability of the commercial model in particular for public service broadcasting, namely ITV. Since then, certainly as reflected in our PSB two most recently, people have come to acknowledge that those forecasts were indeed not only correct but in fact the change in the decline has accelerated faster than we could have predicted at the time. The situation is quite grave. We focused here in the earlier question on ITV. There has also been a diminution in English language programmes for Wales by the BBC in that we did previously have the 2W digital channel which also now no longer exists, although of course the BBC does still produce programmes in English on both BBC1 Wales and BBC2.

Q4 Hywel Williams: There has been some criticism, particularly from the NUJ that S4C's submission on public service broadcasting was confidential. Is this appropriate given that S4C are the recipients of public funds to provide public service broadcasting?

Mr Williams: It is a straightforward question as far as we are concerned. In all the many consultations that Ofcom undertakes - and there are very many of those as you will know on a wide variety of subjects - it is the norm that people can request that either their whole submission or a part of their submission is submitted confidentially. That is a decision for the body making the decision and, even within the context of PSB, most of the submissions made by the commercial broadcasters - I do not only mean ITV; if we compare with Ulster Television in Northern Ireland or STV in Scotland - were made confidentially. I think it is perfectly appropriate that that happens and it is a decision for the body submitting the evidence. If we are requested to keep a submission confidential, that is what we do. Obviously when we came to writing the report, what we attempted to do was to encapsulate in our report the key elements of the submission. I think we did that and did it accurately. Of course subsequently S4C have published an edited version of their submission. That is not a problem for us in any shape or form.

Q5 Hywel Williams: Have you responded to bodies such as the NUJ directly apart from the reports? There is a feeling that this process seems rushed, some people think.

Mr Williams: My office has not responded directly to the NUJ because we have had no direct communication from them. We have shared platforms together and answered questions in public debates. During the course of the PSB review, we have held many public debates in Wales, as we have been very keen to engage as many people in this process as possible. In terms of the speed of the decision making, our view would be that it is certainly not too soon because the pace of change in the industry has been, if anything, greater than we first forecast. People criticised us back in 2004, saying that we were putting the cart in front of the horse and were worrying too much about this, but as it turns out the decline in advertising revenue has been greater and sooner than we anticipated. Therefore, as our chief executive made clear when he was speaking at the DCMS local media summit here last week, his exactly words were that we can no longer afford to put a resolution to regional television - that of course includes national television - in Wales on hold. I do not think we are making a mistake by moving too soon.

Q6 Alun Michael: I am puzzled by that reply. Do the public not have a right to know what the evidence is that is coming to you? Should you not be protecting the interests of the public? Does it not look bad for Ofcom to be colluding with broadcasters to be secretive?

Mr Williams: As I said, in terms of all our consultations ----

Q7 Alun Michael: I know what you said but that is open to question.

Mr Williams: It is the way in which we undertake our consultations.

Q8 Alun Michael: Should it be?

Mr Williams: If we insisted that all evidence was made public, it would severely restrict the ability of people responding to our consultations to be open and honest about what they told us because they would be ----

Q9 Alun Michael: They are not being open and honest if they are being secretive.

Mr Williams: There are certain where commercial confidentiality plays a part and it is perfectly reasonable that, if requested to keep those matters confidential, that is what we should do. I do not think it would be appropriate for us to decide when, specifically having been asked to keep something confidential, we should then make it public.

Q10 Alun Michael: I think that is deeply open to question. The news service would be broadcast on ITV Wales. Is that going to be viable in view of the fact that ITV cannot guarantee a news service in the longer term? What is the point of ITV Wales if it cannot provide that news service in the longer term?

Ms Balsom: In terms of the submission to Ofcom, it is quite common that the BBC which is also a public service broadcaster and publicly funded, sometimes has cause to submit confidential responses and papers and indeed other broadcasters such as Sky. In this context, I do not think it is an unusual process. Your question about the service that may or may not be proposed by S4C in terms of news provision for English language is perhaps one which obviously you will be addressing presumably later to S4C. In PSB two, we were very concerned to encourage all manner of broadcasters and content providers who might help address the deficit that we have been speaking about earlier. We are not privy to the details of that sort of proposal that S4C may be dealing with at the moment but we would be interested as a regulator to see what does come forward, whether it is from S4C, ITV or indeed any other party that may help address the deficit that we are all most concerned about.

Q11 Albert Owen: The proposal is for the joint ITV/S4C to provide the alternative news service for English language in Wales. If they do not do it, who does? Who are these other interested parties?

Mr Williams: I referred earlier to the speech that Ed Richards gave here last week. The proposal is that what is established throughout the UK are what we describe as independently funded news consortia. I do not think it is a matter for us to be prescriptive as to who should participate in that but it can be owners of local media services that already exist. It can be new entrants into the market. What is clear and what is important as far as we are concerned is that ITV have made it clear that they will allow someone to provide a news service on the slot on channel three when they have vacated it. The priority as far as we are concerned is to ensure that those news services do in fact continue. Whether the proposal from S4C is the one that is taken forward by DCMS is not really a question for us, but what is important to viewers in Wales, as in other parts of the UK, is that a way of maintaining plurality in news provision is found and is found quickly. When we talk about "quickly" what we mean is by next year.

Q12 Albert Owen: S4C is not the only show in town?

Mr Williams: Not necessarily, no. The BBC have already made some suggestions about how they might work in partnership with ITV. They would not be sufficient on their own to fulfil the deficit. I think there is clarity and unanimity around that, but there might be other ways. Of course in other parts of the UK - for instance in Manchester - the Guardian Media Group might well be an organisation that would be interested in doing the same sort of role in what was known as the Granada area. It is an open process as far as we are concerned, not a closed one.

Mr Wiliam: The point about ITV is that they provide reach and impact. The ITV service will reach a larger proportion of audiences in Wales. That is the vehicle that would carry the news programming and therefore have effective reach in terms of the audiences.

Q13 Mr Jones: There is almost a complete lack of programming produced in Wales specifically for the English speaking audience, apart of course from news programmes, which is surprising and rather disturbing considering the availability of Welsh talent which is not getting an audience. How do you feel that this cultural gap could best be addressed?

Mr Williams: If I go back to my earlier answer, when there was a wider range of programming available than there is now, it is certainly true that there is the talent there to maintain a programme service. I think that is something that has been quite clearly answered over recent years. There are two issues as to where that talent is then seen. Some of it has to do with whether it is seen on the UK network. There have been recent moves by the BBC in particular to improve on that so that programmes are featuring people from Wales made by production companies based in Wales, produced in Wales for the network. That is a part of that, as we see programmes like Gavin and Stacey for instance as an example of a programme that features Wales to a large extent being seen on the network. As far as programmes made in Wales for a specific Welsh audience are concerned, the difficulty, as we flagged up in our report, is that the funding that has been there over the years to maintain that outside of the BBC is no longer there. The surplus, if you like, that existed within ITV is no longer there. That is not a result I do not think of current economic circumstances. The ITV system as we have known it over the years would also be unsustainable even under benign economic conditions. The future looks bleak in that respect. It is difficult to see from where the money would come to fund that kind of content. On the one hand what digitalisation has brought to Wales and to other parts of the United Kingdom is an ability for people to produce their own content and to have it available on the internet. What it has lost is the financial resource to be able to fund that content creation. I do not think we have any easy answers as to where that money might come from in future.

Ms Balsom: I think this is a real concern. It is one that has been there since Ofcom has been established but of course it is amplified in the case of Wales because we have a very different kind of pattern of press coverage as well. In the ten years where we have had devolution, where perhaps it has been paramount for the nation to have a national Wales conversation, for there to be pan-Wales programming that people access and talk about, we have not had that. It is incredibly serious for Wales and it is something that we have underlined at every point. As Rhodri says, the answer really has to be found in terms of what funds could be found to pay for that additional content. We are also looking to Digital Britain which we understand will be published in June and we hope that there may be some answers in that. We do not have the answers at the moment.

Q14 Alun Michael: Most of us here are part of the 20% of the Welsh population who speak Welsh and are well catered for by the BBC and S4C. Who in your opinion will provide the corresponding programming for the 80% of the Welsh population who are consumers only of English language programming?

Mr Williams: In future that programming will be provided on BBC Wales, on BBC1 Wales and on BBC2 Wales and we would hope that there would be an alternative service available on ITV produced by an independent news consortium, to give it that label.

Q15 Alun Michael: That is in reference to news only?

Mr Williams: It is to news only. It might be possible, if ITV were willing to provide some other slots in their schedule, for possibly some current affairs programming or other kinds of general programming, but that would be very much a decision for ITV to take as to whether it made economic sense for them to be able to provide that and of course whether there were the funds available to fund the programme creation to put anything into those slots.

Q16 Alun Michael: Not very likely?

Mr Williams: To be perfectly honest, I do not think it is very likely beyond that, no. These are challenging circumstances the like of which we have not seen in Welsh broadcasting since television first came to Wales.

Q17 Alun Michael: Is there a role for S4C in that regard or would that dilute or undermine their core mission?

Mr Williams: When the submission from S4C came in as regards playing a role in the provision of news service in Wales, that was one which we very much welcomed. Clearly, if you are looking to find an alternative provider of television news outside of the ITV system, albeit to be broadcast within the ITV schedule, then there are substantial advantages to be gained from using an existing structure, an existing organisation, which has the experience and the ability.

Q18 Alun Michael: You did not see it as diluting S4C's mission in terms of news. What about non-news?

Mr Williams: There has been no suggestion from S4C that they would provide anything beyond news. There has been no suggestion either from the direction of government. Lord Carter, when he came to Cardiff recently to meet with stakeholders, was very clear that he did not think there would be any additional government funding available for non-news programming. That is really not somewhere we have gone on that.

Q19 Alun Michael: Can you foresee a situation in which the BBC will be the only provider of general programmes in English for a Welsh audience, with the exception of local radio obviously?

Ms Balsom: I think that is a very real possibility. It is one that we have flagged up consistently. We do not have the answers because obviously, going back to earlier points, it depends on the funding. What we have said consistently is that the ITV model for providing those sorts of programmes is no longer economically viable and therefore it begs the question what would replace that in the form of non-news regional programming outside of the BBC.

Q20 Alun Michael: As long as the quality is good, does it matter, or are you passionate believers in competition?

Mr Williams: We certainly are in that respect passionate believers in competition. We believe that competition leads to a better quality of product. It is fair to say that during the many years that this debate about the future of public service broadcasting in Wales has been undertaken, Menna Richards, the controller of BBC Wales, has been very, very clear in her support for the maintenance of plurality for that very reason. She says that she needs to have competition to the BBC. I think it is inevitably a retrograde step if we end up in a position where the only way to make programmes for the English speaking audience in Wales, however good it is at any particular point in time, is via the commissioning and production facility of the BBC itself.

Ms Balsom: I think your question goes to the heart of plurality. I do not think many politicians would be happy if there was only one voice. ITV historically has reached a very different audience to that of the BBC. I think it is a question of audiences rather than competition and how they are best served in terms of plurality of voices.

Q21 Hywel Williams: We have already been talking a little bit about ITV providing slots for Welsh news in English. Mr Williams, you spoke a moment ago about the possibility of other slots being available for non-news programming. Perhaps I am a bit dull but why would they do that if they have empty slots? Would they not be tempted to fill them with the latest reality shows or whatever?

Mr Williams: Obviously a very careful decision would need to be made by ITV as to whether it made sense economically from their point of view or not. In the evidence that they gave recently to the Culture and Communities Committee of the National Assembly for Wales, that was discussed. It can be described no better than that the door was left open for the possibility of other slots being available. For instance, if we look at the use that is currently made of the Tonight with Trevor McDonald slot, that is a slot that is no loss in one sense to the viewer in Wales because much of the material in the programme is not directly relevant to those in Wales. It is replaced with Wales This Week which is of high quality, is particularly relevant to citizens and consumers in Wales and also is very popular with audiences. It is not too difficult to imagine the possibility of some slots. Clearly, it is limited in its scope. I do not think we are ever going to go back to the days when there were four and a half hours of general programming available within the ITV schedule. I do not think that is a possibility at all. A possible limited number of slots would, for the reasons that Sue alluded to earlier, be beneficial.

Q22 Mark Williams: Can I turn to programming for children? You have alluded in your PSB final statement that there is a need to address the needs of a younger age range. What provision of programme is there available for English speaking children? We are aware obviously of the advances made in terms of programming for Welsh speaking children. What provision is available and how can that provision be improved?

Mr Williams: In terms of content created in Wales specifically for a Welsh audience, there is no provision. Historically, children's programming has been provided by the networks, by ITV, by the BBC and to a lesser extent, for the older age group at least, by Channel 4. Channel 5 is now showing an interest in this as well. There has never been an indigenous production of children's programming in Wales for Wales. I do not think there is any likelihood that it is going to start any time soon either.

Q23 Mark Williams: When you said in that statement, "... we believe there is clear public interest in addressing the needs of this age group through a competitive funding model, if funds are available", what did you have in mind?

Mr Williams: What we had in mind there was the fact that there has been a similar decrease in investment in children's programming across the board in the UK as there has been in general programming in the nations and the regions. The same problems that we have been discussing so far this afternoon in relation to news and general programming in Wales apply in exactly the same manner to children's programming across the board in the UK.

Q24 Albert Owen: You will be aware that the Welsh Assembly Government's advisory group has suggested that there would be a Wales media commission, a broadcasting commission for Wales. Do you think this would help to close that cultural deficit that you are talking about?

Mr Williams: It depends. That has to do with the structure. What it does not answer is: is there any money there to actually fund the programme production. Clearly, if money becomes available to fund programme production, a structure will need to be put in place. That seems to be a perfectly acceptable and reasonable proposition for a way of managing it, but I think it is a second order question. It is entirely dependent on there being some money available in the first place to actually fund programme production. If it turns out that the only programming we are talking about is news programming in Wales, I suppose people might doubt the need for a new institution simply to look after the needs of a single strand of news programming. If there was more money available, a wider range of programmes being produced, it would make sense. It would be necessary to have a structure to look after it. Whether that is the one that government thinks is appropriate is not really ----

Q25 Albert Owen: You are agreeing with it in principle. If the cash is there and it is broader than just news, Ofcom Wales will support it in principle?

Mr Williams: It is certainly one of the proposals that would be on the table for discussion. As there are with many of these questions, there are other ways of doing it. That is not the only way. That would be something for government to decide of ultimately.

Mr Wiliam: Our own advisory committee also recommended a very similar proposal. Another issue for such a body would be carriage. Besides paying to produce the programmes, you would also have to decide where you would negotiate for them to be carried and broadcast. Again, the question of how you effectively reach a wide audience needs consideration as well.

Q26 Albert Owen: Can I move on to another suggestion that there should be a dedicated English language channel in Wales. Do you think this is realistic and again would there be funding issues?

Ms Balsom: I think perhaps you may have answered your own question there. If there were to be another channel, money would be absolutely essential to fund not only the production but also the carriage. In a sense, we need a decision from government about that. It is not something that Ofcom could will because we do not have the means to will the money that goes with it. I certainly agree it would be rather desirable.

Q27 Albert Owen: But not realistic unless there is solid funding?

Ms Balsom: I think that is probably the case, yes.

Q28 Hywel Williams: I have always held that speaking English is a Welsh language since some activities that I was involved in, in the early eighties. How confident are you broadly that in five years' time broadcasting in Wales will reflect that social reality, given that it does not do so to any great extent at present?

Mr Williams: The honest answer to that is that the provision of content related services in English, in Welsh, is under threat in all areas, not only those which we are responsible for. It is clearly the case in television broadcasting, as we have discussed this afternoon. If you look at what is happening in the radio sector, we find that those radio stations operating in most parts of Wales are under similar pressure with a move of advertising revenue from traditional media to the internet. It is having the same effect on local radio and I think we are seeing it in the written press as well. I think we see it on what I could describe as the regional level, The Daily Post and The Western Mail, but it is also evident in the local newspaper market as well. That indeed is one of the reasons why we are currently undertaking a review of local media provision within the UK to try and see what are the needs of audiences in terms of local media provision, what kinds of services could be provided and where sources of funding might come from in the future. It is certainly the case that the production of content that relates exclusively to Wales is under threat. In the old days, the surplus that came from advertising, from a commercial model, in the press, in radio and in television allowed us to produce content that was unique to Wales. The source of that funding is disappearing and is disappearing quickly.

Chairman: Can I thank you for the evidence you have given to us today and also for the written evidence you submitted earlier? It was very helpful in preparing for this session. If you feel that there are some points that have not been sufficiently explored, we would be very happy to receive a further memorandum from you.

Witnesses: Mr John Walter Jones, Chair, S4C Authority, and Ms Iona Jones, Chief Executive, S4C, gave evidence.

Q29 Chairman: Good afternoon. Welcome to the Welsh Affairs Committee. For the record, could you introduce yourselves, please?

Mr Jones: John Walter Jones, chairman of the S4C Authority.

Ms Jones: Iona Jones, chief executive.

Q30 Chairman: Could I ask about this new idea of a news pilot project? What kind of discussions did you undertake on your proposals on the pilot project prior to submission to Ofcom?

Mr Jones: As an authority, we were charged with responding to Ofcom's request for new ideas in terms of public service broadcasting in Wales. We looked at how we can make a contribution to the debate on what became, in news terms, plurality - which I will move on from this afternoon and then refer to it as "choice" because I have difficulty getting it out of my mouth - and regional news programming from Wales. Obviously we look at how S4C could make a contribution because Ofcom was after ideas regarding who can make a contribution and then we discussed what we could do, led by useful ideas from staff at S4C. I am pleased to say that those ideas were met with enthusiasm by several parties outside S4C when we submitted them. I think we did what we were charged with doing as a public service broadcaster and as an authority by responding to a process and we came up with an idea. As to the details, I will let Iona enlighten you on where that idea has now landed.

Q31 Chairman: Could you elaborate? With whom did you have the discussions?

Mr Jones: We discussed it internally. We did not go out to consultation. We did not feel the need for that because they were looking for ideas and it was our ideas that we submitted to Ofcom.

Ms Jones: It is important to emphasise that, even though discussions were mainly focused on internal reporting to the authority, those discussions were informed by Ofcom's research, the work that the National Assembly undertook in relation to the subject back in June of last year and the general tenor of the debate. The proposal emerged from our understanding of the circumstances facing Welsh broadcasting.

Q32 Alun Michael: Why was S4C's submission to the Ofcom review of public service broadcasting made confidential? I was wondering whether Ofcom should have allowed that. Surely it is totally inappropriate for a body that is in receipt of public funds, especially when putting forward a proposal that would imply more public funds coming in its direction?

Mr Jones: We took the decision because it was an option we got. We never said that we would not make the document public at some stage.

Q33 Alun Michael: Is it now public as a whole?

Mr Jones: Indeed.

Q34 Alun Michael: In its entirety?

Mr Jones: No. We have taken out certain sentences and words we felt it would be judicious to remove. The document is almost in its entirety now public knowledge but we felt, at that point in time, that we were allowed by Ofcom rules to submit the document ----

Q35 Alun Michael: Ofcom blame you by saying that you wanted it to be confidential and you blame them by saying ----?

Mr Jones: No. I am saying that we responded to the rules of the game. I am certainly not blaming anyone. I emphasise that I certainly never said as chair that we would not make the document public. It is now public.

Q36 Alun Michael: It will be available to the Committee in its unredacted form?

Mr Jones: No, in its redacted form.

Q37 Alun Michael: We will not know what it is we do not know?

Mr Jones: Exactly.

Q38 Alun Michael: That is wonderful. Are you worried about diluting or weakening S4C's core mission?

Mr Jones: No.

Q39 Alun Michael: Or possibly undermining other broadcasters in Wales?

Mr Jones: No, not at all, because we have said from the outset that, in submitting the idea regarding news and the future, nothing that S4C submitted would be at the expense of its core duty under statute - i.e., the Welsh language programming. Nothing at all will dilute that in future.

Q40 Alun Michael: You see no danger of that whatsoever?

Mr Jones: No, I do not. I would not allow anything to dilute that mission and duty which S4C has. We made that perfectly clear as an authority from the outset.

Q41 Mark Williams: The new service would be broadcast on ITV Wales. Given the threats to a regional news service and the concerns that ITV could not guarantee a service in the longer term, how viable is the suggestion?

Ms Jones: In the proposal we did not specify ITV Wales as being the only option. Given that ITV Wales has the capacity to reach an audience of significance and can deliver impact, ITV Wales would be the obvious carrier in the first instance. We are very focused on trying to deliver something for the longer term. It is not about solving ITV's problems per se; it is about trying to find a resolution for broadcasting in Wales for the future. Therefore, the pilot which we are working on does not preclude any other carrier over the longer term. Initially, I think the consensus is that ITV Wales would be the obvious place to continue to provide such a service.

Q42 Mark Williams: If it is obvious in the first instance, you acknowledge though the concerns more generally about regional news broadcasting and it could be a short term prospect?

Ms Jones: In terms of distribution on ITV, yes.

Q43 Mark Williams: Who are the other people you are talking to post ITV, if you like?

Ms Jones: That is a little bit of a crystal ball gazing scenario.

Q44 Mark Williams: You talk about options.

Ms Jones: There could be other means of distribution on Freeview for example if capacity was made available for this purpose.

Q45 Hywel Williams: Did you consider at all the possibility of sharing facilities in order to cut costs to facilitate the reduction of English language?

Ms Jones: I think it is worth emphasising that S4C does not make anything in-house. We have been very actively promoting the production sector, as you will know. Therefore, we do not have any production capacity to share with others. That would be something which would have to be done in partnership with the production sector. We are of course mindful of the fact that we need to be very hard on our overheads. We run a company with 4.2% overhead so we are quite lean and effective but obviously it is our duty to explore any possible areas of efficiency. The news proposal is one way in which we can use our business structure to apply it to another service and find the kinds of cost efficiencies which hopefully derive from that.

Q46 Hywel Williams: What are your plans in respect of Newyddion?

Mr Jones: The Welsh language news side and the ideas there are something we thought we ought to look at. In fact, we are duty bound to look at it under the partnership agreement with the BBC. There is nothing new at all in saying that we will discuss with the BBC the future in news, as we discuss with them all other programming that they supply to S4C. It is allowed under the partnership agreement and in fact I have a meeting with the chairman of the BBC Trust next week to take the discussion forward.

Q47 Hywel Williams: Can you give the Committee any idea what your plans are and what your opinions are?

Mr Jones: I cannot because I cannot tell you what Iona has lined up in terms of light entertainment, music, sport or anything else. It is in the same category of discussion with the BBC. I will be discussing with Michael Lyons. Obviously there are implications possibly wider than other genres in terms of news but I have also made clear that I would not wish to see anything happening in terms of Welsh language news output which might have a knock-on effect on Welsh language news in general. I do think there is an opportunity here to look at the Welsh language news which has been supplied by one supplier for over 25 years. There is nothing sacrosanct in the fact that it comes from the BBC. It is an option but it is up for discussion.

Q48 Albert Owen: This point has been regularly debated in the past. There is nothing new in the fact that there is this crisis in public service broadcasting and Newyddion has been raised as an issue.

Mr Jones: What is new now is that, for the past three years, we have had the partnership agreement with the BBC. It never existed before. The nature of the debate, if you like, is somewhat different in the last three or four years than it has been over 22 and a bit years. The fact that discussions now do take place on a regular basis and I think it is positive. In that context we will be discussing news with the BBC. There are changes which are about to appear on screen and they have come forward because of those discussions which do take place on a regular basis.

Q49 Mr Jones: The memorandum you submitted says that among Welsh speaking viewers of the channel, S4C is perceived to be the strongest performing channel in relation to providing the best music, sports and documentaries from Wales and Wales based events. How do you think that excellent provision in the Welsh language can be matched for the large English speaking audience?

Mr Jones: We certainly do not wish to make programmes for Welsh speakers only. I want the programmes of S4C to be as accessible as possible to the widest possible audience. We do that in several ways. The first point obviously is the quality of the programming. If people do not enjoy what we are dishing up, they are not going to watch it in any language. That is vitally important and we have proved in the last three or four years that quality counts. In terms of access, with subtitling and all the other kinds of technology available to us, we can widen that access. Now of course you can get S4C outside Wales. It is not simply the Welsh audience which is the S4C audience because even in London and other points to the west, north, south and east of Wales you can see S4C programming. That is something we welcome because you get more bang for the buck. Audiences migrate from the box in the corner to other means of accessing their programming. Now it is the viewer who is king. He or she decides when they view things. My main concern is that they will want to watch S4C and do watch S4C wherever they are and whatever platform they want to use to get that access.

Q50 Mr Jones: Subtitling for an English speaking audience is obviously not as satisfactory as productions in the English language. The largest part of the population in Wales is monoglot English, 80%, as we have heard. Do you not feel that they are missing out to a large extent in terms of this excellent programming?

Mr Jones: I think you have to go back to the role and duty of S4C in statute, which is providing Welsh language programming for its audience. In providing those programmes, I would like people to have access to the programming. Our duty is to provide programming in Welsh for the audience.

Q51 Mr Jones: To quote the Act, which is always the last refuge of the scoundrel, your core remit is to provide a broad range of high quality and diverse programming in a service in which a substantial proportion of programmes consists of programmes in Welsh. What would you define "substantial" as meaning?

Mr Jones: Substantial in terms of the peak hours that would be in Welsh.

Q52 Albert Owen: We have heard the answer to this from Ofcom but I would rather hear it from yourselves. Does S4C have any plans to develop English language programmes other than in news?

Mr Jones: Damned if I do; damned if I don't. If I say no, I give you the wrong answer. If I say yes, I give you the wrong answer. Yes, we have been looking at all possibilities in terms of programming. I repeat what I told Alun Michael. The core business is the Welsh language programming. Nothing will dilute that in any shape or form. If we can help others by providing programmes, either by subtitling or what have you - we talk about it in terms of children's programming. What contribution can we make in terms of children's programming? That is a pat on the back for S4C because the idea has come not from within S4C alone but from outside S4C. Therefore obviously people think that what we are doing is something which we could share with others and others could benefit from the experience of S4C.

Q53 Albert Owen: Ofcom were wrong so you obviously have not had discussions with them.

Mr Jones: I could not quite hear what they were saying.

Q54 Albert Owen: I made a note that there were no plans but you have said there have been discussions.

Mr Jones: No. It is a possibility.

Q55 Albert Owen: No firm plans but a possibility?

Ms Jones: S4C is absolutely not in the business of going into production. We will remain a commissioning broadcaster. In relation to children, you will know I am sure that Ofcom made reference to the fact that S4C is a significant player in children's programming in their first report for PSB two and identified the possibility that Welsh language programming could be reversioned in English. Having taken the strategic decision to invest in children's programming, we took that view on board. We will and are working with independent production companies to see what we can do in that area. The fact of the matter is that S4C does not hold the English language rights, so it would be very much a decision for the production companies as to whether they wish to start exploiting this material for the purposes of other broadcasting media. We are obviously very involved in children's programming and we are looking to see what we can do to facilitate the voice of the production sector in that particular genre.

Q56 Albert Owen: If that discussion was to change into plans on the lines that you are talking about, how would you envisage that to be funded?

Ms Jones: In relation to the children's programming in the same way as news, which is by means of the new contestable fund which Ofcom have recommended to government and Digital Britain have identified in their interim report.

Q57 Albert Owen: Moving on to children's programmes, you believe there is a gap there that you can fill when it comes to English language. Is that what you are saying?

Ms Jones: Given the fact that Wales, uniquely I think in the UK, has a very strong reputation built over 25 years in this particular genre of programming, it seems to us that there is a great business opportunity as well as a cultural opportunity at this moment in time. We will do everything we can to work in partnership with our production companies to see what we can deliver on what is an opportunity for them.

Q58 Albert Owen: You can see great improvement in this and I understand that. Have you been discussing this with the BBC? Is this part of the ongoing, regular discussion you have with the BBC?

Ms Jones: As part of the strategic partnership which the chairman referred to, we have asked the BBC to provide more programming in the area of children's programming, which has happened in the form of Mosquito. Mosquito is now a very excellent contribution to our children's schedule and that is the kind of discussion that we are able to have under the terms of the strategic partnership. Yes indeed.

Q59 Hywel Williams: Can I ask again about Newyddion? I appreciate your earlier answer that you are unable or unwilling to share everything that you have been thinking about Newyddion. If Newyddion was changed or perhaps provided by somebody else, can I tempt you to speculate about the knock-on effects on the BBC's ability to produce English language news programming from Wales? I am going to ask this question of the BBC as well, by the way.

Mr Jones: I do not really think I want to speculate because it is part of the discussion which we need to have with the BBC. I would stress that having that discussion in no way calls into question the level of the service we have had from the BBC since S4C first went on air. It is just part and parcel of the ongoing, general discussions with the BBC about a particular strand - i.e., news. I appreciate that there are sensitivities regarding this particular strand but the fact that we are having the discussion in terms of the strategic partnership agreement is something that must and would happen. It just so happens that those discussions are now taking place at a time when there are other issues regarding regional news also taking place, but they are separate.

Ms Jones: We have been very clear from the outset in trying to identify a solution for Wales for the future, in terms of news, that we were not going to do that if it in any way diminished news provision in Wales. If what we are proposing would result in a loss for Wales, obviously it is not a proposal which merits any further consideration. In the discussion with the BBC we are very clear that we are in the business of trying to protect and build, not to dismantle.

Q60 Chairman: At the risk of being tedious, just to clarify finally this question about your submission to Ofcom, would it be the case that the reason why you released an edited version was simply because of commercial sensitivity?

Mr Jones: Yes.

Chairman: It has taken us a while to get that out. Had you said that at the beginning it might have been helpful.

Q61 Alun Michael: It might be helpful for S4C to reconsider their decision on this and, at the very least, to provide the Committee with a note explaining their decision to redact elements from the submission.

Mr Jones: If it helps the Committee, by all means, yes.

Q62 Chairman: I think that would be extremely helpful. Is there anything that you would like to say which you feel has not been said from your side? Is there anything that you would like to say finally before we move on to other witnesses?

Mr Jones: No. I just want to thank the Committee for the opportunity. I hope that we have answered your questions. If anything else comes up in your deliberations, please do let us know and we will elaborate in writing.

Chairman: That is extremely helpful. Could I thank you once again for coming today and for your earlier written evidence? Once again, if there is anything else that you would like to add, we would be delighted to receive it.

Memorandum submitted by ITV

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Mr Michael Jermey, Director of News, Current Affairs and Sport, and Mr Elis Owen, National Director, ITV Wales, gave evidence.

Q63 Chairman: Good afternoon, welcome to the Welsh Affairs Committee; for the record could you introduce yourselves, please?

Mr Jermey: I am Michael Jermey, Director of News, Current Affairs and Sport for ITV.

Mr Owen: I am Elis Owen, National Director for ITV Wales.

Q64 Chairman: Thank you very much. Thank you for your memorandum, and could I begin by referring to your memorandum? You suggest there that ITV may not be in a position to provide a regional news service as soon as 2010; is this the case specifically for Wales?

Mr Jermey: It is the case specifically for Wales but it also applies to the other licences in the English regions.

Q65 Chairman: If ITV cannot supply this service from next year will any other broadcasters, do you believe, be in a position to supply a news service for English-speaking viewers in Wales in that short timescale?

Mr Jermey: Can I clarify what we mean by an inability to supply? We believe that during 2010 our licences in England and Wales become what the economists call "going negative" and by that we mean that the costs exceed the value of the licences, an issue that we flagged very clearly to Ofcom. We want to be a constructive part of the solution for the continuation of national news in Wales and regional news in England. The constructive part we believe we can play in that is providing the slots on the ITV1 schedule for regional and nations news to continue; we do not believe that we can continue to fund it to the order that we do today, which is £55 million plus a year, and we want to engage constructively with government and with Ofcom in finding a solution. We are not talking about taking our bat and ball away and not being of assistance to something which we think is important to society, we think Ofcom's own analysis, some of which you have heard today, is right and that the economic model under which regional and nations news has been supported for 50 years is now broken and a new model needs to be found urgently.

Q66 Albert Owen: The recent press release by both ITV and BBC stated that they were looking at options about discussing the possibility of partners and interested parties, and you said about providing slots. What discussions have you had on how sustainable this would be for regional news and what are the options that you are looking at?

Mr Jermey: The options with the BBC would not, in the short term or the long term, provide a sustainable service. We did a thorough piece of work with the BBC to see whether there were enough signatures between the two services to find a sustainable solution. It would obviously have been ideal if, by sharing studios and by sharing some technology, enough money was released to keep the current service going. At the end of that thorough piece of work we reached the conclusion that by around 2016 it would liberate £7.1 million of savings across England and Wales, set against the current cost of £55 million plus. We put all that work into the public domain so that people were clear where we were and we made it clear that it delivered too little and too late for it in itself to be a solution to the problem. We have since said that we think Ofcom's conclusion that a form of public funding and a contestability model is a more sensible way to ensure plurality continues.

Q67 Albert Owen: There are no plans for the BBC and ITV to continue looking at options.

Mr Jermey: We are happy to engage in discussions with anybody that seems sensible at any point. In a sense it probably makes most sense for Digital Britain to reach its conclusions before we know what areas should be discussed about X and I think a partnership with the BBC and the provider of regional news on ITV1 could at some point in the future play a part in a solution, but it is not in and of itself a solution for providing plurality of regional news.

Q68 Albert Owen: Because this is an immediate problem and we are talking about 2010 you need a model that can deliver straightaway do you not?

Mr Jermey: We need a funding solution in 2010. It would be possible to have some form of transitional arrangement - you may be able to get to a fully contestable model a bit further down the line and want to find an interim solution and, as I have said, we would be very happy to engage with Ofcom and with government in finding those solutions. We do not want to leave a void in regional news if it can possibly be helped.

Q69 Mr Jones: Given the financial constraints you have already outlined is it not inevitable, perhaps, that ITV will be compelled to take extensive material from the BBC and what effect do you think that that would have on the plurality of the news service in Wales?

Mr Jermey: That depends on whether there is another funding solution. If Government and Parliament were to decide that there should be a funding solution to ensure plurality a BBC partnership would not necessarily be part of that, if it were felt that plurality would be better preserved without it. In a sense it is worth us all remembering that through the provision of analogue spectrum over 50 years the public purse has supported plurality of regional news. In a sense, therefore, before answering the question as to whether taking BBC pictures would undermine plurality one needs to know what economic and commercial model you are operating under. If you are operating under one where there was a form of public funding but also a desire that there was some shared material I do not think it depends on where you draw the lines. If you shared material from press conferences or from routine events - as indeed sometimes on occasions happens now under pooling arrangements - I do not think that would critically undermine plurality. If it meant that the BBC and ITV were only able to cover the same news agenda and the same stories then there would be a serious concern.

Q70 Mr Jones: What if you had the same video pictures?

Mr Jermey: The same video pictures on all stories in a day would be undesirable; the same video pictures on what we call sometimes non-competitive events - you know such and such is happening at 11 o'clock in the morning, you both send one camera and then you can put your own impartial interpretation on those events. That would not be a danger to plurality so it depends slightly where you decide to draw that line.

Q71 Mr Jones: What about, for example, the coverage of events such as the G20 demonstrations.

Mr Jermey: In the case of G20 it is quite obvious that having more than one camera and more than one news organisation out there gathering news meant that we as the British public got a fuller picture of the event. Covering G20 with only one camera would have undermined plurality.

Mr Owen: We regularly share material now on BBC Wales for the majority of royal visits, Welsh Assembly pictures, conferences in Wales and sports events even we share pictures. It is done on a regular basis but does not threaten plurality. If we are after our own stories, in particular for ITV Wales, or if BBC Wales are after their own stories they will do it separately.

Mr Jermey: I guess the answer is that at the extreme 100% sharing would seriously undermine plurality, at the other extreme sharing 5%, 10% or 15% of routine events probably would not.

Q72 Hywel Williams: You have referred already to a competitively funded model from 2011 in your submission. How would you be involved in that as ITV if that came to pass?

Mr Jermey: We could be involved in a number of ways. I certainly do not think that we could be pitching to provide the service and be involved in the commissioning of it; we are more likely to want to be a co-commissioner of the service, that the programming would be appearing on ITV1 and we would have a continuing interest in an editorial relationship with the people making the programme. There are benefits - and this may apply more to England than to Wales - in the English regions being in some form connected and being able to do some programming together, and that to a degree applies to Wales as well, and ITV1 can help facilitate that. I also think that there is vast experience and talent amongst the staff of ITV Wales and we would hope that they could be part of the solution moving forward, so it depends a little bit on what mechanism gets put in place as to the role that we can play, but our argument is essentially that the economic model is broken, we can no longer continue to fund but we want to be part of the solution to ensure that plurality continues.

Mr Owen: Because we have a track record of 50 years of providing news in Wales you would have thought the expertise of the staff there could be fully utilised in the future.

Mr Jermey: But we have no narrow economic interest in it.

Q73 Mark Williams: Turning away from news coverage your memorandum says that ITV Wales currently produces only an hour and a half of non-news programmes each week; how safe is even that small amount and how sustainable is your weekly arts programme for instance?

Mr Owen: Non-news is in the same position as the news service in that the old model of funding non-news and news programmes on ITV is more or less broken. The cost of making news and non-news programmes is now more than the benefit of the licence itself this year, so we have the same problem with non-news and news. News obviously, from all the reports we have seen from Ofcom and all the research we have seen, is a priority for our viewers and so the thrust of the whole debate is to save news programming. We do an hour and a half of non-news in Wales - it is down from a peak of about seven hours back in 1999/2000 - and we do more news in the nations than we do in the English regions and that news is mostly in peak time with current affairs programmes and arts programmes and some documentary programmes at peak or near peak time, but I make no bones about it that there is a funding issue in the future for non-news programmes on ITV. Because of the question where is the money going to come from ITV cannot afford to carry on funding those programmes because the old commercial model is broken, and that threat is probably more to non-news than to news.

Q74 Mark Williams: You have alluded in the news area to the need for some interim arrangements and some longer term ones, but can you foresee a time when the BBC will be the only provider of general programmes in the English language to a Welsh audience?

Mr Owen: As Ofcom alluded to earlier on there is that possibility. I would hope as a programme maker in Wales that that does not happen, but unless a new financial model is found for the future of programmes outside the news - the news is being discussed much more fully than non-news - there is that possibility. I would hope it does not happen, but in the end it is how do you fund those programmes.

Q75 Mark Williams: Could you just outline some of the alternatives to that? As gloomy a prognosis as that is, what are the alternatives to ensure that the 80% of the Welsh population who speak English are not disadvantaged?

Mr Owen: It is very hard to see a commercial alternative at the moment which would bring funding in to fund those programmes. It would have to be some form of public funding or it may be sponsorship of programmes at some point in the future, so there are many things you could look at. The other question is where do you put those programmes? They only work on ITV1 in Wales at the moment because they are next to Coronation Street etc and you get big viewing figures. If you went to other channels I am not sure whether it would work anyway.

Mark Williams: Thank you.

Q76 Albert Owen: Can I just come in on this? I am very concerned about what is happening, as are many Members here, with the democratic deficit as well. We have seen the print media contract so that are very few owners and a narrow choice there. Do you see this happening in Wales? When you say "we want to provide a vehicle" unless you are given an alternative view is that not bad for democracy in Wales?

Mr Jermey: It probably is bad for democracy and it is something that we have warned about for some years. We are a commercial broadcaster, we need to make a return for our shareholders. Mr Owen and I have worked in public service broadcasting within the commercial sector for a very long time, we know the value that these programmes add to society and the value that our viewers see in them, but the economics are very clear. For years this form of programming was supported by the exchange of analogue spectrum in return for a cheque to the Exchequer and the provision of programming. That model is broken; if society wants it to continue beyond what the market can provide there needs to be some form of funding, funding is the absolutely key issue here. We then as a responsible commercial broadcaster with a sense of the heritage of this programming are happy to go to considerable lengths to try and help us be part of that solution, providing news slots - as Ofcom correctly analysed our position on slots for non-news programmes. It is a more difficult area, there are issues of opportunity cost and so forth and I am not in a position today to say that we would do it, but equally we have not utterly ruled that out, we would be happy to engage in a debate and so I think the characterisation of having left the door ajar is probably right. This is an issue, as your question alludes to, that goes well beyond what ITV as a commercial broadcaster can do and goes back to what sort of society do we want to be, what form of plurality do we want in our broadcasting, what new mechanisms need to be put in place fairly urgently to replace mechanisms that worked very well for 50 years but have absolutely conclusively broken down.

Q77 Albert Owen: The model has broken down but could you not take some responsibility for the fact that the whole media has changed relatively quickly and you have not been changing as quickly as that has? There are websites and various other media outlets and ITV has been this traditional 50 years we have done things one way; is that fair criticism?

Mr Jermey: I am not sure that it is entirely fair. Everybody in the media probably has to put their hands up and say things have moved very quickly and we have done our best to adapt and adjust. Our programming certainly is not the same as it was 10 or 15 years ago and if you look at a very successful programme like Wales Tonight it has the ability to interact with the audience through the internet, to get a response from viewers, to use viewer video, to have established a website - we are changing the technology but we intend later in the summer to re-launch that so that it reaches out to viewers and offers things in different ways. We have modernised and have been adaptable. It is also relevant that if you look at the audience figures for Wales Tonight and indeed the audience figures for the news in English regions at six o'clock, they are remarkably robust. It is a form of programming that, despite the knowledge universe, still attracts a lot of viewers.

Q78 Albert Owen: But it does not attract advertising.

Mr Jermey: It attracts advertisers rather less, you are right, it is a demographic which it is vitally important television serves properly; it is a slightly older demographic than advertisers are after, but the essential issue is not whether it is an attractive demographic, it is the sheer cost of making nine versions across England and Wales with 15 different regional footprints. The cost is considerable, it always has been considerable, and the means to pay for it has disappeared.

Q79 Hywel Williams: Can I ask you not about news production but general programmes and particularly network programmes on ITV. Mr Owen referred earlier on to the talent that is available in Wales and I should declare an interest in that there is a certain amount of television production in my own constituency of Caernarfon, but ITV does not seem to commission network programmes from Wales at all; why is that, given the amount of talent and expertise that we have?

Mr Jermey: The simple answer is that ITV commissions on the basis of a meritocracy, does not ask where people come from or where the idea comes from and is open to ideas from anywhere. We did a bit of a survey a year or so ago on this; I cannot remember the precise numbers but we got very, very few offers from Wales, which slightly surprised us. We are open for business, we are keen to have good ideas pitched to us, whether they come from England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or any other part of the British Isles.

Q80 Hywel Williams: I am not here on behalf of the BBC of course but when the BBC take a conscious decision, say, to shift production of Casualty over from Bristol to Cardiff, you produce many, many programmes in London so have you ever considered taking a conscious decision to shift that sort of programming? I do not think you can do Coronation Street in Cardiff by the way.

Mr Jermey: It is a different sort of decision for the BBC in that if you are in receipt of £3.6 billion of public money you can, to a degree, play a part in regional and national industrial policy. We are not in receipt of public money and believe that the best solution for our business is to be a meritocracy and take the very best ideas. The revival if you like in the television sector in Wales may throw up more ideas and ITV may be one of the beneficiaries of that, and we certainly would say to any independent producer in Wales we are open for business, we want good ideas and if they are good ideas that will do good business for ITV1 or any of the ITV digital channels we will be delighted to hear them.

Q81 Hywel Williams: Can you speculate as to why producers from Wales then do not bombard you with wonderful ideas for programmes?

Mr Owen: There are other markets obviously in Wales compared to areas such as Scotland, there is the S4C market and BBC Wales do commission a lot in Wales, so there is much more opportunity available for producers in Wales than in other parts of the country. That may be one of the reasons why.

Q82 Hywel Williams: So possibly producers are not hungry enough?

Mr Owen: It has been stated in the past that maybe Welsh independent news is too inward-looking, but that has changed certainly in the last three or four years with the growth of bigger companies; companies now are looking outside Wales and are bidding for commissions from elsewhere. It is quite a heartening sign.

Q83 Hywel Williams: Can I ask you a question about your archive material, which is an interest of mine, because identity is based not just on the current discourse but also on our history. HTV and latterly ITV have huge amounts of programming, which I find very interesting but perhaps is not such a turn-on for people at 11.30 at night when Arfon Haines Davies comes on with his programme, but I find it riveting. Can you just tell me, what is likely to happen to all of that as ITV becomes more of a London-centric outfit?

Mr Owen: You are quite right, we have an archive that goes back more than 50 years, to 1958, which is quite a good catalogue of what has happened to Wales over that period. At the moment the archive makes some money for us because we actually make some in-house programming and series for S4C using that archive, so there is a commercial value to that archive. That archive remains within ITV Wales and there is no plan as far as I know to move it from ITV Wales.

Q84 Mr Jones: Mr Jermey, the issue of funding obviously is key to our discussion and we are all aware of the country's economic difficulties at the moment. Does ITV Wales cast covetous eyes on the model enjoyed by S4C?

Mr Jermey: The model that S4C have proposed for the funding of news?

Q85 Mr Jones: The funding model it is enjoying at the moment?

Mr Jermey: A direct grant from DCMS. ITV has said throughout this debate that we do not want to be the recipient of direct public money and that remains our position. No, we do not want to have a grant from central government a la the S4C model, we would prefer public money from whatever source that comes to go to an organisation that has the provision of regional news directly in mind and our contribution can be the provision of the slots. We think that the people at ITV regional news and a lot of the assets could be very helpful in making a smooth transition to the new world, but we are not asking for direct funding.

Mr Jones: Thank you.

Q86 Chairman: Could I thank you for your evidence today and the earlier written evidence, which was very helpful in preparing for your session. Do you feel that you have covered all the points you wish to make or is there anything you wish to add?

Mr Jermey: Just to thank you for the invitation and to say that we are delighted that the Committee is considering this area and if there is any further information that you want after today we will be very happy to provide it.

Chairman: Thank you very much. Could the witnesses from BBC now come forward, please?

Memorandum submitted by BBC

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Mr Mark Byford, Deputy Director-General, BBC, Ms Menna Richards, Director BBC Cymru Wales, and Ms Clare Hudson, Head of Programmes, English language, BBC Cymru Wales, gave evidence.

Q87 Chairman: Good afternoon and welcome to the Welsh Affairs Committee and this particular evidence session on English language broadcasting in Wales. For the record could you introduce yourselves, please?

Ms Richards: Yes, good afternoon. My name is Menna Richards and I am a Director at BBC Wales.

Ms Hudson: Good afternoon, I am Clare Hudson, I am the Head of English Language Programmes at BBC Wales.

Mr Byford: Good afternoon, I am Mark Byford, Deputy Director-General of the BBC.

Q88 Chairman: The acoustics are not brilliant in this room so please do not be afraid to raise your voices. Thank you for your written evidence. If I could begin you refer in the written evidence to what you call Wales facing "a growing information gap" which I presume is a euphemism for a democratic deficit. How would you fill that gap?

Ms Richards: One of the issues that the BBC has to deal with is that a number of organisations in Wales are facing decline of different kinds. London-based print media particularly, no longer, have correspondents in Wales and certainly the indigenous newspaper market is declining. We know about the difficulties facing ITV Wales, we have already heard from them, and the difficulty that the BBC faces in Wales is that we are by far the most substantial organisation in Wales and there is an expectation that we should automatically fill the gap left by others. Clearly we have some significant and wide-ranging responsibilities and we are, by dint of developing our services, trying to provide as rich a mix as possible, but to expect the BBC simply to fill the gap is not a realistic position for the BBC to take.

Q89 Chairman: Do you want to add to that?

Mr Byford: I would obviously agree with Menna Richards on that. As Menna has said (a) the marketplace for Wales is changing and, (b) the BBC remains absolutely firmly committed to information provision within that democratic system/purpose, firmly committed to news and current affairs coverage and political coverage but also in a wider offering of genres that meet audience needs. As well as what we offer we have also said to ITV that there are things that the BBC can and would want to do in terms of partnership, particularly around facilities, particularly around some core news provision, covering undisputed pictures if you like, where we can be more efficient and more effective together by coming into partnership that may help support the continuation of plurality of provision and provision by an ITV or a Channel 3 providing regional news, but we never say that the BBC's partnership alone would be the sole reason why that could continue, it would be an important contribution.

Q90 Chairman: Given what ITV has said today and what they wrote in their evidence do you think that you are almost at a position where the BBC is likely to be the only credible provider of English language news in Wales?

Mr Byford: I hope no; I absolutely hope not. The BBC recognises that for the equality of its own provision it is good if not essential that it has competition in terms of provision of news and current affairs as you say within television and also in radio. That is why we have been keen to offer what we can within that partnership framework because we think that plurality, as has been recognised by the Ofcom review and has been recognised by other reviews into public service broadcasting, is good for the audience.

Chairman: Thank you. Mr Hywel Williams and then Mr Albert Owen.

Q91 Hywel Williams: Can I then ask you, therefore, we heard Mr Jermey earlier on explaining quite frankly that ITV's intention is to be a broadcaster unlike the BBC and, like any other commercial organisation, essentially with their eyes on the bottom line. The BBC does not see things in that sort of way but you do have a duty towards the people of Wales to reflect the variety of events and news in Wales, that is how you see things I believe.

Ms Richards: Yes. Clearly what BBC Wales tries to do as well as providing that core service of coverage of news and current affairs and politics across all our services - television, radio and online - is that we strive to make sure that audiences are well-served by the programmes that we produce given the resources available. The whole range of output - arts and music, drama, comedy, entertainment, sport - the BBC offers all of those to audiences in Wales and the important thing for us to recognise is that there are certain things that audiences in Wales will only get from broadcasters in Wales, and that is a reflection of Welsh culture, Welsh history and the kinds of things that we have addressed with series like Coal House and Coal House at War, recognising that what we do is very particular and that we address the particular interests of audiences in Wales. We also produce very successful network productions, of course, and that is the other side of the coin; the key thing for us is to make sure that audiences in Wales are as well-served as possible.

Q92 Albert Owen: Can I go back to this partnership that Mr Byford was talking about with ITV? They have acknowledged the difficulties that they have got; do you see this partnership as being a long term remedy or do you see it as a stopgap until a new model is found? Quite frankly they said their model is broken, so are you just propping them up for a while?

Mr Byford: I see it as a long term important contribution, certainly not as a stopgap just for a year or something like that, no. We would see it as a long term contribution to enabling provision of news at a regional and local level across Wales but across, obviously, the English regions as well, whether through ITV production or whoever.

Q93 Albert Owen: How would it work in practice? Would you be sharing studios? We have talked about the fact that there are certain occasions, Royal visits et cetera, where you do share now but what new partnership delivery would you be giving and how would it work?

Mr Byford: The overall context obviously is that you want to retain plurality of provision so the last you want to do is be doing everything on the BBC, that is self-defeating for the very thing that you are trying to do. What we have looked at with ITV is the ability to use facilities - that is everything from studios through to satellite trucks, news-gathering - where if the investment in those facilities can be shared rather than each having separate facilities, that can help them to save money. On the content that will be limited because of the very drive for wanting to provide complementary services but there are outputs where we both would be going to the same venue, doing the same interview, using the same facilities and in those, in the way that we do, as you say, pool facilities now, we think that we can extend that and yet still retain the distinctiveness of the output. The key is that ITV will still have its own journalistic team, it will still have its own editorial levers, it will be driving its own agenda, it will be using that content in the way that it wants to do to provide plurality of choice, but where there can be use of facilities that benefit them we are happy to contribute. In Wales there is a specific challenge that is different to the discussions we have had in English regions where, because of the provision of Welsh language news services as well as English language services, the ability to use a joint gallery is more limited. Where we can share and it makes sense we will.

Ms Richards: Just to add to that, maybe we have not been very clear that there are different circumstances in Wales to those in the English regions and therefore, as Mark says, we do not propose to be sharing a gallery and a studio with ITV necessarily, partly of course because of the provision of Newyddion on S4C but also because of the particular issues around the absence of plurality in Wales. We want to make absolutely certain that the journalistic endeavour is entirely separate and that the editorship is entirely separate.

Q94 Albert Owen: I am not convinced that choice will not be damaged by this arrangement because we have all acknowledged that ITV is in trouble and they have got rid of a lot of their journalists and those skills, so it will be a BBC-dominated partnership and it is very difficult then to have that choice.

Mr Byford: That is not the driving force of it or the aim. The first is to recognise the marketplace that ITV faces and Mike has put forward to you the economic challenge that they face. The BBC recognises that too. The BBC says that it understands the importance of news at both network and regional level for audiences - it is hugely important to them, both as consumers and citizens - and as I said at the start of the session the BBC thinks it is actually good, not just for the citizen but for the BBC to have competition. Where can we help contribute? If it damages the BBC output why would we want to do it, so one thing is that BBC services will still remain strong. The second is that in the partnership it enables and contributes to that requirement on ITV to be able to have an economic model of providing that news that is more beneficial than where we are today. We have never said it solves it, but we say it is an important contribution to it. because it has been looked at around facilities in the main, such as satellite trucks - taking as read what Menna Richards said about certain gallery and studio provision not being the same for Wales - and where those things are actually about the engine room of news rather than the editorial content, we think it makes sense for us to be able to share and we have come to a memorandum of understanding with ITV because they do agree that these discussions could be fruitful and they make sense. The editorial content itself, other than limited pool, will be generated in the agenda and in the drive of the content by ITV. Clearly they have been making reductions in their overall services across England and Wales; what we hope is that by this contribution it helps them to be able to continue - or a provider through ITV - for the long term.

Q95 Mr Jones: Briefly, Mr Byford, I have to say that I share Mr Owen's scepticism about the model that you have outlined. It seems to me that the discretion as to, for example, what events to cover will be exercised under this model by the BBC. There will certainly be editorial divergence as between the BBC and ITV but effectively the decision as to which events are newsworthy and should be covered in the first place will be made by the BBC will it not?

Mr Byford: The mistake is to think that each morning the BBC will be deciding what the coverage is that they will do with ITV and then there will be a very limited level of production done by them or whoever is the supplier, for their programming. That is not the case. The driving force has been about the sensible stewardship and use of facilities plus recognising, as someone who has been involved in regional news for 30 years, that there are some areas of content where it makes absolute sense for both the BBC and ITV to not have duplicate coverage and be able to share because in that coverage it is actually non-contestable in its distinctiveness. It could be an interview with one person outside of a council building, done by the same crew, could be given for both, but ITV themselves as well as the BBC will have their own editorial teams in place wanting to provide their own distinctive agenda and the majority of their content will be done by themselves.

Q96 Mr Jones: I understand that, but there can be some major events where plurality is required, not only in terms if you like of the commentary or in terms of the editorial approach, but also in terms of the physical coverage. I mentioned, as you probably heard, to a previous witness the G20 as a prime example where certainly it would have been impossible to have proper plurality of coverage simply by having one camera crew there.

Mr Byford: It is never envisaged at all that that would be the model. Obviously that is network coverage for UK-wide use, this is about a Wales level and an English regions level, but the driving force of the majority of the content will be still done by the BBC for the BBC and for the ITV production by them. Where it makes sense to reduce cost because in those limited areas it does not make sense in the context of plurality and distinctiveness - it is just the same material - on an international level we are doing that with different broadcasters and we are doing that in some pooled materials now, it is not a new thing. It is extending that so that we can still retain distinctiveness and yet be as efficient and effective as we can and help support them to still be in the game.

Q97 Hywel Williams: Can I just pursue that for a moment. I have always been struck by the contrast between Welsh language series production in Wales and the English language production in Wales, one being essentially national production of international stories whereas English language news for Wales often seems to be national or regional. With the example of the G20 I assume that Newyddion carried pictures on the G20 and I wondered if Wales Today would have. If you are looking for a fully developed English language service for Wales would we not be in a position to say something similar to Newyddion wanting to carry the details would get the pictures from the BBC. That is one of the points that David Jones was making.

Ms Hudson: It is important to remember that Newyddion is providing the only news in Welsh for the Welsh-speaking audience. Whilst if you are watching BBC ONE on a Wednesday night you will have the UK and international news at six o'clock followed by Wales Today if you are watching S4C Newyddion needs to provide a mixed news agenda. They are different vehicles for different audience needs and I do not think there is an exact parallel in talking about those two services.

Mr Byford: Obviously Newyddion as well has the ability to utilise BBC material at international or UK-wide level as well as doing stories within Wales and that does not change in any way from these partnership proposals with ITV.

Q98 Hywel Williams: Before you arrived I did ask John Walter Jones and Iona Jones to elaborate a little on S4C's stance on the future of Newyddion alas with absolutely no success, I am afraid. I just wondered, given that in your memorandum you say that the BBC management believes that the proposals of S4C to no longer broadcast Newyddion "risks reducing the value and impact of existing PSB provision in Wales" - I assume with a dramatic effect on the use of English language version - would you like to elaborate a little bit on your views on this possibility?

Ms Richards: BBC Wales, as some of you will know, has produced Welsh language television news for many, many years, predating S4C by several decades. It is part of the BBC's absolute core mission to produce Welsh language television output including news but since S4C was established clearly Newyddion has been carried on S4C. The clear concerns are around what does this mean for audiences if the BBC were no longer to produce Welsh language news? The service Newyddion, provided by the BBC, carried on S4C, is very highly regarded by audiences. Its audience has grown indeed in recent years to such a degree that S4C have asked the BBC to produce more news bulletins during the day, which we begin from next month, so there are clear concerns about what it would mean for Welsh language audiences if the BBC were not to continue to provide Newyddion. There are also concerns around the implications of that for BBC Wales' news operation because clearly there are economies of scale and synergies between Newyddion and Radio Cymru news, and indeed Newyddion and Wales Today, so there are some quite significant financial issues, but principally it is the service and the value that the BBC provides to audiences in the Welsh language because the BBC's core public purposes around sustaining citizenship are largely about news. The BBC has a responsibility to fulfil those public purposes in the Welsh language and I believe does so effectively for the service of audiences through Newyddion.

Q99 Mark Williams: Turning now to what has been described by some as the cultural deficit, you alluded to the success of the BBC ONE network in promoting Wales. Could you elaborate a little bit more about some of the quality drama and other products which are aired in Wales for the English-speaking Welsh audience?

Ms Hudson: Certainly. On BBC ONE and BBC TWO Wales we aim to offer a range of genres, as Menna said earlier. In drama we have had a long-running series called Belonging which not only has been much-loved by the audience but also has been a fantastic crucible for some of the talent that we now see working on network television programmes as well. This autumn we are going to be launching a new drama for audiences in Wales on BBC ONE in peak time. That is produced by an independent production company headed up by Tony Jordan, who has been behind some of the biggest successes of BBC television drama, but using a whole range of emerging writers, many of them from Wales, and next year we will be unveiling a new drama which has been written by two local Welsh writers, one of whom has worked on Dr Who, under the mentorship of Russell T Davies, so there has been a fantastic synergy between what we are doing on network and what we are doing locally. We have a whole range of arts programmes, arts documentaries, and we aim to cover a number of cultural events and music events across Wales. Coming soon we have the Cardiff Singer of the World competition, which is not just a network television project, it is online, it is on radio and it will be on BBC TWO Wales every night soon after that night's competition has finished.

Q100 Mark Williams: What about children's programmes for English-speaking Welsh children; what programmes are available and how could they be sustained?

Ms Hudson: We have over the years managed to come up with some of the most creative projects in terms of children's television. Just in the last few weeks we have had going out on air Teletales, a project which has actively involved children in generating the content themselves in drawing the backdrops and in performing the parts. That has been a co-commission with CBeebies, the BBC's young children's channel, and we have also been able to produce that in another format for S4C. Prior to that we produced Bobinogs, which had a very successful run both on CBeebies and on BBC Wales. Obviously there is not limitless resource for providing programmes for children, but we are very committed to developing the talent to do that.

Q101 Mark Williams: I detect in your memorandum some frustration that the increasing costs of production and in particular the challenging financial climate has restricted your ability to do more.

Ms Hudson: Indeed. If you had the controller of BBC ONE sitting in front of you she would be saying the same thing. There is always more drama, in particular drama and comedy, that one would like to commission. It is such a popular genre, such a powerful genre for driving portrayal, for driving exploration of contemporary society, but it is also the most expensive genre, so one has to make difficult decisions and difficult choices, but even within those constraints we are managing to produce two new dramas over the next 18 months.

Q102 Mark Williams: There is not a significant cultural deficit in your view but there is still a deficit nonetheless for Welsh viewers.

Ms Hudson: Deficit is a relative term. As I say, I would love to be able to commission more drama, I would love to be able to commission more comedy because they are much-loved genres but I also think that a comedy like Gavin & Stacey which is a network commission is hugely popular in Wales and hugely valuable to our audiences in Wales.

Ms Richards: If I could just add, because of course we have radio services as well as television services one of the advantages in BBC Wales is that we can develop talent across radio and television. It works both ways; it is quite interesting. Ruth Jones of Gavin & Stacey, her radio presenting debut was on Radio Wales but equally writers who are developing and honing their skills on radio will, I hope, eventually have an opportunity to work in television.

Q103 Hywel Williams: You are making annual efficiency savings of 3% up to 2013; is that likely to affect English language programming for audiences in Wales?

Ms Richards: The efficiency savings that BBC Wales in common with every part of the BBC has to make mean that we clearly have to be as imaginative as possible in the way that we deliver those savings in order to protect content and output where possible, but inevitably there are significant financial pressures on the BBC and we have to recognise, as Clare was saying earlier, that if we had limitless resource we would do more, but realistically that is not the position; it is not the position for us and it is not the position for any other part of the BBC. The important thing as far as we are concerned is to recognise that where we place that investment is the genre of programming that delivers most to audiences and we, for example, will be investing more in peak time on BBC ONE because that is where we will reach the biggest audience. Some of you will know that 2W has been merged with BBC TWO; what that has allowed us to do is to invest greater resource in peak time on BBC ONE rather that on BBC TWO which means a bigger audience and more people get to see sport and Coal House and music. Clearly there are constraints; there are difficulties for all of us but we need to husband those resources as effectively as we can so that audiences get the best possible service.

Q104 Albert Owen: I just want to advance this network versus Welsh reality if you like. You are admitting that BBC TWO Wales failed in many ways, that is why you had to merge it, it was this standalone let us see Welsh reality and it did not work because your priority is, as you said, on getting the big network ones. You have the resources to do it, you get bigger audiences et cetera, it has to be. I hear what you say about the talent coming through, but a reflection of Welsh life has been lost because of very welcome, successful productions like Dr Who.

Ms Richards: I am sure Clare will answer that but can I just be clear about 2W? 2W came to an end for technical reasons. Once digital switchover happens it is impossible for us to run 2W and BBC TWO Wales so we have merged them, but the distinction you are making is different from the one I was making. I was talking about local output; it is not a question of BBC Wales' resource going into network production; that is not how it works. BBC Wales' resource is for local output; the commissioning of network production brings additional resource in its wake and perhaps Clare would say a bit more about that.

Ms Hudson: I suppose what I would like to say is that some of the things that I am certainly most proud of and the most successful things that BBC Wales has done over the last few years have been local commissions. You only need to look at the success of Coal House, the biggest investment that BBC Wales has ever made has ever made in a factual series and of higher value than many of the things that we make for network, to see the level of commitment that we have. I spend a great deal of my time thinking as creatively as I can, with the people who work in my team, about how to reach audiences in Wales with projects that they will not just sit and watch, but that they will value and remember and appreciate for many years to come. The most recent one was a season we did on childhood called What Are We Doing to Our Kids which has had a phenomenal impact on the audience, in particular on younger people. Network television I think is fantastically important for a whole range of reasons, not least because the audience values it greatly in Wales when we do great things on network, but also because if you want the best possible talent and the best possible creative culture you want to be able to say to your people that there many different canvases that you can paint on; you can do it all here, you can work on radio, you can work online, you can work on television, and if you want to have the best people you want to have the best possible range of places where they can do their good work.

Q105 Albert Owen: Is this big network draw dumbing-down some of the things that the BBC has traditionally done?

Ms Hudson: Dumbing-down?

Q106 Albert Owen: Yes.

Ms Hudson: Do you have any examples of that?

Q107 Albert Owen: What I am saying is if you want to attract young people and you say "Come and work for the BBC and be part of Dr Who" that is an attractive proposition for young people entering the media world. You say about resources, that you have difficulty getting resources for the kind of programmes that you are very proud of and it is easier to get something for a wider network audience. That is the point I make and I thought you were making that very point, if you do not mind me saying that. You seemed to be saying how good it was, how easy it was and how you have got the success to carry on being the network provider.

Mr Byford: If I may, Chairman, I think what Menna was saying was that she wanted to do both.

Q108 Albert Owen: But there are not the resources for both.

Mr Byford: There are limited resources for network programming, it is not as though there is an endless stream of money for network programmes, not just from BBC Wales but from everywhere. What Menna understandably wants to do is to provide the range of genres for Welsh viewers and listeners through the television output for Wales and Radio Wales for English language speakers, which as she said across news and current affairs, entertainment, sport, some limited drama, factual programming and real richness means that the BBC remains absolutely committed to a broad range of genres that provide that richness for audiences, as well as building its network present in drama, in factual, and that has been the story for Wales and that is what makes it a creative success, recognising that the marketplace we have discussed today means that there are pressures outside of the BBC as well that mean we have certain responsibilities and contributions that we think we can make to the wider marketplace.

Q109 Albert Owen: If I could move on the BBC Trust has identified a target of 17% of production to be moved out to the nations. Does BBC Wales have a figure for what it wants to achieve?

Ms Richards: The way the BBC Trust has apportioned the 17% is broadly by population, so for Wales that would be a minimum of 5%. That would mean that we would double our network production over the course of the next few years, but we are ambitious to do more than that of course.

Q110 Albert Owen: It is currently 2.5%.

Ms Richards: It is around 2.5%.

Q111 Albert Owen: Has it been growing to that or has that been a steady 2.5%?

Ms Richards: It has grown significantly in the last four or five years with the success of Dr Who, Torchwood, Sarah Jane Adventures and a huge range of factual output from Tribe to Top Dogs that was on BBC TWO last week.

Q112 Albert Owen: Carry on.

Ms Richards: Yes, I am happy to do so.

Mr Byford: It will grow from that.

Ms Richards: It will. The intention is that it will grow. The BBC has just announced that Casualty will move from Bristol to Cardiff, Crimewatch is moving to Wales, partly because of the strength of the factual department in Wales. The 5% I am very glad to say has been described by the Chairman, the Director-General, the Deputy Director-General as a floor and not a ceiling and that is a very important phrase because our ambitions are to grow beyond the 5%.

Mr Byford: In the earlier evidence from ITV as well I noticed that they said obviously we have commitments as a public broadcaster but they want the best creative ideas from wherever, and of course we do. These are guides and frameworks; nothing would give me or Menna more pleasure that that is actually a floor and that creatively the best ideas are flying from wherever, but there are certain commitments that we want to make. If the ideas mean that you can insert genres and build on that, then that is good.

Ms Richards: The other important aspect of this is the linkage between what we produce for BBC Wales output locally and what we produce for network. What Clare described earlier as the crucible for talent, the way in which people can move back and forth between local production and network production, gives people a whole range of extra skills, of new opportunities to develop their careers in a way that was probably unheard of even ten years ago.

Q113 Albert Owen: One other question - and I know I have raised this on a number of occasions in previous inquiries we have had as well - to benefit the whole of Wales is not just coming from the capital of England to the capital of Wales; do you have plans for that 5% to be distributed throughout Wales so that talent in different areas and localities can benefit from it?

Ms Richards: In response to the question, which you quite properly challenge us with regularly, we have always made it clear that we will endeavour to commission as much as we possibly can from areas outside Cardiff if the ideas are there and if the companies are there to make them. On this we have got something coming up quite soon on Bodnant Gardens, for instance.

Ms Hudson: The local commissioning is very much part of developing capacity. The series on Bodnant Gardens, which is actually a co-commissioning between myself and BBC TWO Network, is being made out of Bangor by the team there. We have also just commissioned an independently made series set in North East Wales, so we are constantly looking to grow talent in other places but we have to understand that we do also need to develop capacity. That is why Casualty is moving to South Wales so that the people working on Casualty can work within a drama community. We would hope that they will be moving back and fore between Dr Who and Casualty and all the other dramas that we are making, so you have to make difficult choices about where you want to source these things but there is always an eye on how we can develop capacity in other parts of Wales and not just in South East Wales.

Ms Richards: If I could just add to that, the BBC is moving a significant part of its operation to Salford and there are significant opportunities there for independent production companies based in North Wales.

Q114 Mr Jones: If I could just develop the discussion, please, about the growing importance of Cardiff as a centre for drama production, both Ms Richards and Ms Hudson have mentioned that Casualty is relocating there from Bristol. Is this not, however, a question of one region benefiting at the expense of another region? I notice the dynamics that prevail within the BBC, why for example not relocate a drama production from, say, London where as I understand it there is enormous pressure at the moment? I am not thinking about EastEnders but I am sure there must be some other similar productions.

Mr Byford: Firstly, the framework that Menna has brought to you about the growth in the nations is the overall strategic framework for the BBC. For Wales one of their specialist areas that they will be building is drama; the build is not alone on Casualty growth, that is in order to create a drama community of real substance but it comes on the back of five years, as you know only too well, where BBC Wales has enjoyed enormous success in terms of drama through Dr Who and Torchwood.

Q115 Mr Jones: I am just wondering how Bristol feels about it.

Mr Byford: Bristol presumably will not feel utterly delighted at it but will recognise what we are trying to do strategically which is to build an overall drama community within the South Wales area. The Casualty site was up for renewal and it therefore made sense for us to look strategically at where we are building that strength in drama across the whole of the UK and we are concentrating in this area through Cardiff. But it will not just be things moving from London or things moving from Bristol, it will be also the growth within BBC Wales and the independent community in Wales.

Q116 Mr Jones: Ms Hudson, you touched upon this but as you may know the Committee recently completed an inquiry into Globalisation and its Impact upon Wales, and we remarked how impressed we were by the quality of independent production within Wales. What is the BBC doing, apart from the examples you have just given, to encourage the growth of independent production within Wales and to bring it forward?

Ms Hudson: A whole range of things from commissioning - at my level 35% of the hours that I commission for BBC Wales are from the independent sector, at least 35% and they have the potential then to bid for another 5% - and projects on the scale of something like Coal House or some of the things that we have done recently on childhood allow an independent to grow their creative skills and their creative ambition. Also on network there have been a number of moves to ensure that we provide the kind of creative support that independents are going to need, so just in the last two weeks I now have working partly in my team but partly in the London network production team a new factual executive whose whole job is to focus on the independent sector in Wales and to support them to do the best they can in terms of pitching and getting network commissions. That will allow us to develop talent and to develop a more powerful partnership with the independent sector. Then there are a number of other schemes which the BBC is running, including a series producer training programme which supports indies as well as in-house people to become more effective as executive producers, and there is another scheme called the XM25 scheme which the BBC is running which is trying to make sure that independent companies based outside London get access to the best possible intelligence and understanding of what network requirements are. On a whole range of fronts, therefore, we are doing what we can to make sure that independents are in a very fair position to get some of this network growth that we have been talking about.

Q117 Chairman: We have come to the end, and although I am tempted to ask a question about partnership that will open up a whole set of other questions. Could I suggest to you, however, that in all partnerships there is a power relationship and it is always a challenge for those of us on the outside to suggest that it is an unequal partnership. What we can see at the moment is that it appears to be an unequal partnership; could you express your view about that? What I see really is that in economic terms - although it is perhaps not an appropriate word - it is a kind of duopoly and instead of plurality we actually have the possibility of a suffocating situation with two parties coming together with not necessarily different or conflicting approaches which would create a healthy tension and create competition. What is your observation on that?

Ms Richards: You mean the BBC and ITV news partnership.

Q118 Chairman: Yes.

Ms Richards: We have been at pains to explain that we recognise some of the issues that you raise and it is absolutely not the BBC's intention, as Mark has described, to do anything other than try and support ITV in the way that we believe is most appropriate through this partnership, which has been agreed in principle with ITV in order to ensure that audiences in Wales continue to get plurality. It is interesting that when Members talked earlier about these issues if you are a viewer of Wales Tonight on ITV or Wales Today on the BBC you will see that many of the same stories are covered; that is the nature of a news programme. However, there is very, very little overlap between the audiences. Wales Tonight has its own loyal audience and Wales Today has its own significant loyal audience, so it is important to recognise within all of this that there are audiences out there who wish to see the continuation of ITV, certainly would wish to see the continuation of the BBC, but it is far from wanting offer some kind of homogenous news service to audiences in Wales who clearly, from what we understand already, are looking for different things.

Mr Byford: I would just say, Chairman, as well that there is always a danger in any partnership of dominance. That is the very last thing that the BBC wants to do and it is contributing ideas to where ITV or any economic model of provision on Channel 3 could have reductions in costs sensibly by sharing with the BBC around its facilities. The sharing of content is hugely controversial; as a first stance people say why will you be sharing content if you want plurality, but we recognise - both parties recognise - that there are areas where we can sensibly share, and in a memorandum of understanding you need two partners to sign. ITV have themselves said this can make sense for them as a contribution to their long term provision of regional news and we agree with that, but we recognise that without a partner themselves saying "Yes, this makes sense and we want to play ball" it will not work, so it is the offer from the BBC and we hope it will be taken up.

Chairman: You will appreciate that this Committee of politicians comes to this subject with a healthy scepticism and we look forward to the way in which the BBC and ITV portray this particular session on the news. With that little challenge I will now declare this session closed. Could I thank you all for your evidence and for your written evidence. Again, as I said to all other witnesses, if you feel there is something that we have not covered we would be delighted to hear from you. Thank you.