UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 348-ii

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

WELSH AFFAIRS Committee

the proposed national assembly for wales (legislative competence) (welsh language) order 2009

monday 30 March 2009

MS MERI HUWS, MR MEIRION PRYS JONES and MR GWYN JONES

MS NON RHYS and MS NIA DAVIES

MS ANN BEYNON

Evidence heard in Public Questions 108 - 185

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee

on Monday 30 March 2009

Members present

Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair

Nia Griffith

Mr David Jones

Alun Michael

Hywel Williams

Mark Williams

________________

Memoranda submitted by the Welsh Language Board

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Ms Meri Huws, Chair, Mr Meirion Prys Jones, Chief Executive, Mr Gwyn Jones, Director of Policy and Terminology, Welsh Language Board, gave evidence.

Q108 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Good afternoon and welcome to the Welsh Affairs Select Committee. Before we begin could you introduce yourselves to the Committee?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) I am Meri Huws; I am the Chair of the Welsh Language Board.

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I am Meirion Prys Jones; I am the Chief Executive of the Welsh Language Board.

Mr Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I am Gwyn Jones; I am the Director of Policy and Terminology at the Welsh Language Board.

Q109 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Thank you very much and a very warm welcome once again. Could I begin by asking quite a simple question? Why is the current Welsh Language Act no longer adequate in your opinion?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) May I thank you first of all for the opportunity to present this evidence. As a Board which was established under the Welsh Language Act of 1993 may I firstly say that we see significant strengths to that legislation? Fifteen years on in implementing this Act we now feel as a Board that there are certain weaknesses in terms of implementation of that legislation. We would like to draw attention to that. Also there has been a significant change in the landscape and linguistic demography of Wales. So it is purposeful and timely to reconsider the legislation. We have seen a significant change in the census which was reflected in the 2001 census in terms of the numbers of Welsh speakers; there has been an increase from 18.7% up to 20.8% per cent of the population of Wales. We have also seen a significant change in terms of choice of language medium for education. During the decade between 1996 and 2006 there was an increase of 10,000 young people in the Welsh medium education system; today there are 82,000 young people receiving their education through the medium of Welsh so the linguistic landscape of Wales has changed. The Board also feels that there has been a change of attitude in Wales and it is appropriate therefore for us to reconsider a piece of legislation which was purposeful and extremely strong. It is now time for us to reconsider that legislation.

Q110 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Do you feel then that the growth in the language - the development that you have described - has nothing to do with the Act? Is that what you are saying, and it is solely down to the success of education, particularly in the Welsh medium schools?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) I think the answer to that question really makes you look at having an understanding of linguistic planning. In looking at language planning there are numerous influences and it is not possible to differentiate one from the other. Legislation is part of that jigsaw. The status that comes from legislation is important in terms of a change in attitude and therefore change in demand for services in the Welsh medium education side by side. Education is extremely important. It is important it is done through partnership. It is all down to being a part of the jigsaw. That is what the legislation is and I do not think you can detract from the fact that it is there and it is part of the jigsaw.

Q111 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Could you describe the support or can we measure the support from this demand for additional legislation?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) There are two ways of looking at that measure. We can see a change of attitude in Wales; that is a qualitative aspect. If we look at quantitative evidence recently we had an opinion poll from the BBC which showed that 47% of the population of Wales were calling for additional legislation; 29% felt that there was no need for legislation. In terms of the quantitative evidence the demand is there. Certainly there is also qualitative evidence and there has been a significant change of attitude in Wales.

Q112 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I will just follow that up then by asking if there was a majority of non-Welsh speakers who were in favour of getting new legislation.

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, that is true.

Q113 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) If this proposed order goes through and then leads to measures, I would like to talk about measures. In your opinion how will this order lead to a more effective situation in terms of how it compares to the current legislation?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) If we look first of all at the experience of the Welsh Language Board and the weaknesses that have become evident from the 1993 Act, in looking at new legislation we can see the weaknesses and the main weakness of the 1993 Act from the board's point of view is that we have capacity under section 17 when evidence is found that a public body is contravening the requirements of their own Welsh language scheme. We then have the right under section 17 to undertake a review of the situation and we can hold an investigation. What we do not have as a board is the ability when recommendations are made to actually implement those recommendations upon the body under section 17. The Legislative Competence Order in front of us here raises a number of questions which I think may be appropriate for us to look at and raise some of the questions that we as a Board need to consider as we look at the LCO.

Q114 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I was just wondering what enforcement methods should perhaps be used in your opinion to make sure that any legislation is more effective than the current situation.

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) I am not entirely sure that that falls within the Legislative Competence Order; I think it is a matter for legislation itself when that period of time comes. The Welsh Language Board would feel that there is a need to have the ability to implement the recommendations of any investigation.

Q115 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I was looking at the memorandum which has been drafted by the government and they do talk about the powers in sections 94 and 95 of the 2006 Act. Their opinion is that the LCO is not going to go any further than the 2006 Act. Would you see eye to eye with that?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) I must say that that is not an issue that the Board has considered. We have comments about the Legislative Competence Order but we have not considered it in the context of the 2006 legislation.

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) In terms of the power that we currently have I think we refer to the 1993 Act not to the 2006 Act.

Q116 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I referred to sections 94 and 95 of the 2006 Act, could you perhaps look at that and send us some further information, please.

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, we are happy to do that.

Q117 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) If we look at this from a different way, does the order include effective sanctions as it has been drafted?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) There is actually no mention within the order of that.

Q118 Mark Williams: Has any work been done on the effectiveness of sanctions elsewhere in the world? We have heard in Ireland there is the capacity for a fine to be imposed on a non-compliant public body. It has not been utilised which I guess is a success in part to language policy in Ireland. Notwithstanding what you say about the place where the measure would be decided on, it would obviously be the National Assembly after we have looked at things here. Have you currently looked at the international precedents on the sanctions regime that could be used?

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) We are coming back to the fact of course that there is no mention of that in the order. If you would like us to answer that question then I certainly will do. In terms of looking at other countries, I think what we can see, in terms of evolving the legislation, that acts do evolve to include elements relating to sanctions. Those elements do differentiate quite significantly from context to context depending on linguistic history and legislative history of those countries, so from time to time it is difficult to compare, but that said, there are two other language acts which have been created and which are based on the Welsh Language Act, namely the Gaelic Language Act in Scotland and the Irish Act in Ireland. So there are similar situations. However, in terms of the process of imposing sanctions, experience in Scotland is very new and the Irish experience is that they have established a language commissioner's office and the language commissioner is now beginning the process of going after bodies who do not stick to their language schemes. At the moment I do not actually believe that they have taken that process to its extreme. We are aware, of course, in other countries such as Catalonia, the Basque country and also Quebec that there are systems in place in those countries which do impose sanctions but on the whole these sanctions are not heavy sanctions. I think that what is important within that process from what we can see is that official attention needs to be drawn towards shortcomings if they are made in the legislation rather than actually imposing sanctions in a heavy-handed manner.

Q119 Mark Williams: Why do you believe that the list of bodies in Matter 20.1 should be increased and what is your rationale for proposing those included in your written submission?*

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) In looking at the draft order before us we welcome the bodies that have been named. In terms of feeding into the debate we feel it is important to consider other types of bodies - those you have just referred to, the banks - because they offer services of a public nature. We have referred to insurance but insurance alone should be compulsory; everybody has to have car insurance so we feel that that should be included for that particular reason, because it is compulsory. In looking at public transport we cannot see any reason why we should differentiate between a train service and a bus service. I think that consistency in this issue is very important and also we feel that we need to have a debate about the content of the infrastructure as well for transport such as a station. Is there a difference between a station and the bus on which you may be travelling? It is about consistency; that is what is important and that is why we have included the issue of public transport infrastructure as well. In looking at the major centres and the big leisure centres we also believe that they are buildings which are bodies offering a service of a public nature and therefore they should be considered within the order. I think it is important in considering the order that we should bring into the discussion other bodies as well that could be included so that we can have the debate.

Q120 Mark Williams: (Spoken in English; not recorded)

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) That is extremely important. We have also seen a discussion relating to the use of the Welsh language and the use of Welsh medium services. Again we would argue, as a Board, that consistency is extremely important. Consistency also raises levels of confidence in users to use to the Welsh language. It is not an exception; it should be considered to be available. That is why we feel that other bodies should be considered and that there should be consistency created in services providing bilingual services.

Q121 Nia Griffith: (Through an Interpreter) According to your paper the proposed order, as has currently been drafted, would not have any effect on 99% of the private sector in Wales. Just last week the Mobile Broadband Group did raise concerns with us about the lack of clarity, particularly in relation to the impact on the telecommunications sector. They think the impact could be much wider than this.

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) If we look at the telecommunications industry to begin with then, I think if we look at telecommunications businesses worldwide we will see generally that they operate not bilingually but multi-lingually. It was interesting to see the provision, for example, of Vodafone on a global level and we picked up on an example that Vodafone provided services in Icelandic. There are a number of other companies as well, for example in Italy they offer English, Basque, Catalan and Galician. These are all worldwide; these companies offer a variety of languages. There was even a company based in India which offered seven African languages, a number of languages from India and also Catalan, Galician and Basque. So it is clear from the telecommunications industry, particularly with mobile phones, that it is quite a simple matter for them to actually provide a vast range of languages. From our standpoint what we are looking for is something quite simple which is the use of what you can see on the telephone screen, also a certain amount of the service that you receive and perhaps, in due course, we may be looking for something more complex like a telephone bill, but even now most people receive their phone bills on the phone itself. We are looking for something simple. There is adequate evidence here on a global level that these companies are more than used to offering these services in a vast variety of languages.

Q122 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Are there any companies using Welsh?

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) No, no companies use Welsh at the moment.

Q123 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Why not? Has the Welsh Language Board not asked them to?

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, we have had that discussion but strangely enough when you look at these companies in Britain it is almost as if they are reflecting the fact that there is one strong language in use in Britain. Once those companies actually get out of Britain then they offer these services quite easily. I think the question that we are asking is, what is the problem? You do this in other countries, why are you not able to do it here?

Q124 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) The CBI suggested in their evidence that we should change the phrase "providing services to the public" and use the phrase "functions of a public nature". What is your feeling on that?

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Certainly as a Board we feel that there is a better understanding needed of the term "functions of a public nature". We have looked at the legislation behind this and there is a reference in the 2006 Equalities Act and before that in the 1998 legislation to "services of a public nature". There is no legislative definition of that at the moment so we acknowledge that. What is important to us, accepting that there is no legislative legal definition of it, is that we are trying to encompass those bodies which are visible to the public offering in their terms a service which is of a public nature; the customer, the user, that is what is important here so that they can see the service as being one of a public nature. That is why we have added to this list names of people who could be included potentially in the powers of the order.

Q125 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Providing services to the public appears in the 1993 Act and also in the 2006 Act. In the period since the 1993 Act was passed has anybody asked the question or brought a case in terms of the nature of the definition of the phrase "providing services to the public".

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) No, it has not happened.

Q126 Nia Griffith: (Through an Interpreter) CBI also told us last week that they did not support any aspect of compulsion for private companies, that bilingual provision should be demand-led and that there is insufficient demand for Welsh language services. What is the situation then? What is the current level of demand for Welsh language services?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) It is very difficult to answer that question in a quantitative level but I think it is worth stating this in a historical context very briefly. The English language has obviously been the official language to all intents and purposes in Wales for decades and centuries. We have seen significant change in terms of the landscape of the Welsh language over the last century. Since the middle of the last century we have seen a growth in the field of education to which we have already referred. That has now been normalised. Very slowly we are seeing a change in terms of the Wales language in employment and work and that is a significant development; that happened significantly at the end of the 20^th century because of linguistic plans. What we are now seeing is an increase in the services. That change is significant but we have to understand the psychology also of the user. Very slowly people are starting to use that as it is becoming normalised. One thing which is very important is that those services should be consistent and that comes back to a point which has already been made. Consistency is required in terms of services where people can use the Welsh language. These services need to be marketed and we have seen a significant change for example with Carmarthenshire County Council where they marketed their telephone lines. There was then in increase of 50% in the use of that language service in a very short space of time. In the same way Dwr Cymru Welsh Water have gone through a similar process and it is very important that we see that demand and use are the product not only of provision but the product of something which is far more complex. It is a confidence, it is the product of practice and usage and of normalisation, not just the issue of provision leading to demand and vice versa.

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I think it is worth breaking the myth in terms of lack of understanding around why there is no demand. It is completely evident and obvious in terms of linguistic planning and, by comparison with other countries, why there is no demand: there is no tradition, there is no pattern, the service is not available fully and therefore very slowly I think we can expect this to happen. There is no mythology; it fits the pattern of other countries and other languages quite clearly. It does take time - a long time - to change practices. We are talking here in the context of the Wales question about first of all 1947 in Welsh schools - sixty years ago, not really far off my age - during that period of time this landscape has changed completely. The change in practices which come back now from the middle of the 16^th century do take far, far longer to embed.

Q127 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Can I ask your opinion about the provision of services? Do you think it is better to try to change the service itself so that it is bilingual at the point where the user meets the service or is it better to have the service separately so one can have a Welsh one or an English one and if anyone wants to go to the Welsh one they can?

Mr Prys Jones: (Through an Interpreter) I think we are going quite far off the issue of the order here. We are talking here about practices and customs in terms of how somebody actually goes about offering a service. We would argue here that there is a variety of services that can occur and that there is no one response or one solution to this. Part of the strength of this is that one could offer a variety of ways of offering a service.

Q128 Mr Jones: (Through an Interpreter) How do you interpret the term in the order dealing with the Welsh and English language on the basis of equality?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) That term is one which emanates from the 1993 Act and we acknowledge from that period of time. What is important is that services, where they are offered in both languages, should be of the same quality, of the same standard, of the same accessibility and that is how we define the basis of equality. Equality of service in both languages is fully equal and fully consistent. That is what has been implemented and is being implemented successfully following the 1993 Act. Here we should acknowledge that we as a Board acknowledge the constitutional problems and legislative problems which emanate when we do start to talk about official status. We acknowledge that that discussion occurred back in 1993 and continues to be part of a discussion. What is important to us and for the user is that those services are consistent and are equal in both languages.

Q129 Mr Jones: There is official status now for the English language. How do you address the constitutional difficulties? Do you think it is appropriate to include this provision ("on the basis of equality") within the LCO?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) As a Board we acknowledge the constitutional difficulties that emanate from that but we do not offer any solution to that. I think it is a matter for those people who will be drawing the legislation and for constitutional experts to deal with.

Q130 Mr Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Are you looking forward to having a language commissioner for the Welsh language?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) Again there is no reference in the order.

Q131 Mr Jones: (Through an Interpreter) But there is in the memorandum.

Ms Huws: I think there is a debate to be had once and if the Legislative Competence Order is accepted in terms of structures which are appropriate for Wales and which build upon the successes and strengths of the 1993 legislation.

Q132 Mr Jones: (Spoken in English; not recorded)

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) As I said, I think that there is a different discussion to be had following the period of the Legislative Competence Order in terms of structures which are appropriate for the Welsh language. As a Board there are no strong feelings in terms of a commissioner, a commission or a board appropriate for the Welsh language; the prosperity of the Welsh language is our consideration.

Q133 Mr Jones: (Through an Interpreter) What about the future of the Board?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) Again this is a discussion which is to follow after the period of the Legislative Competence Order. The one thing I would refer to I think is the growth that has occurred in terms of the Wales language. Since 1993 there has been a small contribution that has been made by the Welsh Language Board to that process through promoting the Welsh language and again I feel we have to have this discussion about appropriate structures and purposeful structures. We have to have that in the future after this period has passed.

Q134 Mr Jones: (Spoken in English; not recorded)

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) The Legislative Competence Order belongs to the Welsh Assembly Government. We saw a copy of it a very short period of time before it was laid before the Assembly.

Q135 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Do you feel that it is necessary to have a statement that Welsh is an official language? I am thinking back here to the clear statement of Sir Wyn Roberts when he said that the Welsh language is an official language in this country but it was stated that English is also an official language. What do you feel about that?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) There is a fundamental difference between a de jure status - legal status - and as a Board we acknowledge the problems which can emanate from that constitutionally. We can also see the importance of a de facto status of the Welsh language that should be visible (it has been visible since the 1993 Act) certainly in terms of our understanding of linguistic planning it has fed use of the language, confidence in the language and a status for the Welsh language in terms of people requesting services, people asking for education through the medium of Welsh and also there is now increasingly an acknowledgement or recognition of the use of the Welsh language in jobs. The de facto status is extremely important in terms of linguistic planning and raising confidence in the use of the Welsh language.

Q136 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Can I close then by asking the final question about freedom to use the Welsh language? It is the Matter 20.2. In your written evidence you discuss in quite a lot depth this issue to use of freedom to use the Welsh language. Is there a lack of clarity do you think? How can you define this better in the order?

Ms Huws: (Through an Interpreter) There are several extracts of the Legislative Competence Order which struck us as being weak. This is certainly one part of it. Freedom is a very difficult concept to actually translate into legislation. It is far easier to translate rights. I am not sure of any other legislation relating to freedom so I feel - and we, as a Board, feel - that a stronger definition of freedom would be useful whether it be a move in terms of semantics or an understanding of rights, but we feel that this is weak as it stands.

Chairman: There are no other questions so can I therefore thank you very much for giving your evidence this afternoon and also for your written evidence. If you would like to submit any further evidence to us in written form we would be very keen to receive it from you. Thank you again very much for coming today.

Memorandum submitted by the Federation of Small Businesses

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Ms Non Rhys, Wales Policy Manager and Ms Nia Davies, Wales Policy Officer, Federation of Small Businesses, gave evidence.

Q137 Chairman: Welcome to the Welsh Affairs Committee. Could you for the record please introduce yourselves?

Ms Rhys: Non Rhys, Wales Policy Manager, Federation of Small Businesses.

Ms Davies: Nia Davies, Policy Officer, Federation of Small Businesses.

Q138 Chairman: Thank you. Thank you for coming along today and also for your written testimony. Does the Federation of Small Businesses support the transference of legal responsibility for the Welsh language to the National Assembly for Wales?

Ms Rhys: The vast majority of our businesses believe that the power should rest with the Assembly.

Q139 Hywel Williams: Looking at the proposed LCO itself, will it enable the Welsh Assembly Government to provide more support for the use of the Welsh language in business in your opinion?

Ms Rhys: The LCO itself, as far as we can see, will have a minimum impact on the day to day running of small and medium enterprises in Wales. The only question we have is a better definition of services to the public and also with regard to energy it could affect production of energy rather than just the service providers that would actually be selling the energy to individuals. The Assembly has a pretty robust strategy for anaerobic digesters, for example, in place for 2012. A lot of these could potentially be family farms producing this energy so a bit more clarification with regard to exactly who within the scope of that.

Q140 Nia Griffith: Following on from that, are you happy with the list of bodies on which duties can be imposed? Do you think it clearly excludes small businesses from the scope of the LCO?

Ms Rhys: As I have just mentioned, once the detail of the measure is in place, reassurances that small and medium enterprises who we have been assured are not being incorporated into this are obviously excluded, especially with regard to the couple of things we have mentioned.

Q141 Nia Griffith: So your position is that you definitely want to see your members excluded.

Ms Rhys: From a practical view point the majority of businesses in Wales would not be affected by this and it would be very difficult. However, 28% of our membership state that they are able to deal with each other or customers through the medium of the Welsh language already and 59% say customer demand is the main thing that would encourage them to produce bilingual services. So they would respond to that. Of course there is a lot of potential within SMEs already for use of Welsh in SMEs not through any measure but through support and encouragement. We would like to see the Welsh Language Board being able to offer more practical support for SMEs to do that.

Q142 Chairman: In the Federation's view then is the provision of a monetary threshold for those bodies which would fall with the scope of the order appropriate at the LCO stage, and is the sum appropriate?

Ms Rhys: To be honest, the £200,000 for our SMEs would be a huge amount; that would not affect the majority. Ninety-one per cent of our members have a turnover of less than one million so that puts that sum of money into context really as far as small and medium enterprises are concerned. We have no members with a turnover of more than five million, for example, either. That threshold is not something we are disputing.

Q143 Mr Jones: There is of course a provision, as we have just been discussing, that bodies in receipt of more than £200,000 in any financial year should be subject to the terms of the LCO or the measures that might flow from it. In terms of grant aid, to what extent would small businesses be receiving public money in excess of, say, £200,000 for a particular project? I am thinking, for example, of hoteliers or other business people who receive grant aid from either the Welsh Assembly Government or from some other public body.

Ms Rhys: As I have just said, that sum of money would be a phenomenal amount for the majority of SMEs to receive within Wales. If our businesses are in procurement contracts it will be through a local authority or NHS or some sort of educational institution.

Q144 Mr Jones: I am thinking more in terms of grant money actually. I come from North Wales where, especially in places like Llandudno, a lot of small hotels do receive grant aid from the Wales Tourist Board or VisitWales as it now is and £200,000 would not go a significant way towards upgrading a hotel in Llandudno. Do many of your members receive grant aid at that level would you say?

Ms Rhys: Not that we are aware of.

Q145 Mr Jones: Do you represent small hotel businesses?

Ms Rhys: Yes, we do. A lot of our membership would be directly or indirectly affected by the tourist trade but also we have businesses from all sectors.

Q146 Mark Williams: How involved has the Federation been in the consultation with the National Assembly Government in terms of the drafting of the proposed order?

Ms Davies: Before the LCO was announced we actually met up with ministers down at the Assembly and we were reassured that the LCO was not aimed towards SMEs. In the earlier stages we were actually assured.

Q147 Mark Williams: Do you think as an organisation you have been successful in reassuring some of your members about that? You alluded to your meeting with the Minister of Heritage that you had. Have you got that message through to your members? We had a very lively meeting with my federation and there were obviously concerns about this; there is an important message there to get out.

Ms Rhys: We have obviously been surveying the membership quite closely with regards to these issues and obviously listening to individuals as well who are dealing with procurement contracts et cetera where there are clauses already in there for bilingual services due to that through local authority contracts as well as individuals who naturally use both languages on a day to day basis because of where they are located. I think it is something within SMEs as they are part of all our communities that happens naturally and depending on the sector or location of the business.

Q148 Mark Williams: More generally in the debate we are having, has the Federation, notwithstanding what you have said about the assurances the Minister of Heritage has given to you, looked at some of the other countries and the experiences in other countries of small businesses as to the effect of language policy?

Ms Rhys: No, we have just been concentrating on our membership.

Q149 Hywel Williams: We have been told that about a third of your membership is located in the retail, hospitality and tourism sector. What do you think the impact of the LCO would be on these industries?

Ms Rhys: As far as we can see there would not be an impact. What we would like to see is support and grants available by the Welsh Language Board for these, especially that sort of sector which is quite visual on our high streets, to be able to produce bilingual signage and for the new business support model as well, to help make these new businesses aware of the services and the support available as well.

Q150 Hywel Williams: Some businesses in my constituency produce material only in English and others produce material in Welsh, English and several other languages. Some of those say it gives a unique character to the services they provide, especially hotels. Have you had any of that sort of feedback from your members?

Ms Rhys: Of course there is anecdotal evidence saying what the advantages or disadvantages are. What we would welcome is some coherent research into this so that if there are advantages tell businesses that, show businesses that, give them evidence of this. That is what is going to encourage them to use it. If there is a competitive edge that could be produced from using bilingual signage or materials then any smart business would actually work in that way.

Q151 Mr Jones: Are any of your members operators of sub-post offices?

Ms Rhys: We have very few postal services and post offices and telecommunications services as members; it is about 0.3% of our membership so it is very, very small.

Q152 Mr Jones: I was going to ask you about mobile phone retailers as well. Do you have any of those among your membership?

Ms Rhys: We have not had any feedback from any members with regards to that.

Q153 Mr Jones: The competence would extend, of course, to the provision of postal services so what impact do you think that the measures that flow from the LCO would have upon your members who happen to run sub-post offices?

Ms Rhys: From the survey mentioned of membership there would be hardly anyone affected at all. We have not had any feedback from any individuals who would be affected.

Q154 Mr Jones: Hardly anyone affected because you have so few members?

Ms Rhys: Yes.

Q155 Hywel Williams: We have heard from other bodies such as the CBI in terms of businesses that would be affected by the LCO. They put great store on creating a level playing field, that every business should be required to do the same thing at least to a certain level. What do you think of this? I characterise that as people who do actually provide services in Wales are penalised because they have to spend; the people who do not say they will not because they do not have to. I think there is a perverse incentive therefore not to provide in Welsh. What is your view in providing a level playing field?

Ms Rhys: If you are trying to provide a level playing field between a small business and a large business then there is obviously going to be disparity with regard to the ability to produce materials and pay for that and the costs absorbed are going to be different so it would not create a level playing field with regard to all businesses.

Q156 Hywel Williams: I was thinking in terms of the businesses captured by the £200,000 level rather than small businesses. I am interested in your broad observations on the whole idea.

Ms Rhys: The majority of our membership would be indigenous Welsh companies with one premises so it would depend on where they are based rather than being able to compare with other businesses they have across the border or in any other country. It would not make a difference because of the nature of the businesses that we represent.

Q157 Nia Griffith: Do you think that the current order will contribute to the mainstreaming of Welsh language issues with general business advice? You talk about a lot of your small businesses in appropriate areas naturally using it rather than having it imposed upon them. Do you think the order itself will do anything to make it more of a priority for any of your businesses?

Ms Davies: I do not think anything would actually come from the order. The point we are making is that in terms of business advice if there is any help or grants available to help SMEs use the Welsh language that should be fed through the new business structure in Wales so that businesses can better use that. The trouble we have found is not many businesses were aware of the Welsh Language Board grants or the help that could actually support businesses. What we are saying is that if there is support and help there then that should be shown to the businesses so they can actually use Welsh. Businesses would chose Welsh if they knew what help was available.

Q158 Alun Michael: Turning to Matter 20.2 which is the competence over the freedom to use the Welsh language. In what circumstances do you envisage that that might apply to the small business sector?

Ms Rhys: As we have had explained to us, it is literally the right of two individuals to speak Welsh to each other within the workplace. Obviously common sense would dictate if they were meeting or it would be more relevant for the working practice day to day to be run through the medium of English then people would obviously naturally do so. We do not see an issue in that whatsoever.

Chairman: Thank you very much for your evidence this afternoon and also for your written evidence which was very helpful in preparing for this session.

Memorandum submitted by BT

Examination of Witness

Witness: Ms Ann Beynon, Director, BT Wales, gave evidence.

Q159 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Good afternoon. Welcome to the Welsh Affairs Select Committee. Can I begin by asking a simple question: does BT support the transference of legal responsibility for the Welsh language to the National Assembly?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) Yes, it does.

Q160 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Why?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is natural that responsibility for a national language in Wales should happen in Cardiff. That is where the decision should be taken.

Q161 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Secondly, will the proposed LCO enable the Welsh Assembly Government to provide more support for the Welsh language in business.

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) No, I do not think that is the case. The fundamental problem in my opinion is the lack of use of the Welsh language generally. Certainly the evidence that we have has been of low levels of use of the Welsh language. In our services and in speaking to other services the experience seems to be similar across the board. What I would like to see happening - which is even more important than legislation specifically in my opinion - are moves to promote the Welsh language through the life of Wales in general, through business and through the community and through the field of education. I think there is a problem in terms of linguistic skills amongst Welsh speakers and learners and there is a problem of confidence in the use of the Welsh language outside of the home environment and outside of a specific area.

Q162 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) BT is now a successful company on a global level. What is your experience with language law in other countries?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) In other countries business tends to deal with major companies or with government bodies. We do not retail in other countries so the only experience we have of languages in other countries is through dealing with governments directly as a major customer so we do not have the experience that we have in Wales of dealing with a broader market of retail and wholesale.

Q163 Nia Griffith: (Through an Interpreter) In your evidence you state that the proposed LCO should treat BT and its competitors equally, so they should be dealt with in the same way. Which of your competitors do you feel are not impacted or affected by the LCO?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) My understanding is that any company which provides telephone services - mobile phone services or terrestrial phone services - should all come under the Act. I also take it that companies providing internet services should come under the Act. It is a very broad range and it should all be included. All the mobile phone companies and any companies providing mobile phone services or terrestrial services should come under the Act. That is my interpretation of it. Of course BT currently provides significant services in the Welsh language. We provide a customer service in Bangor; we provide a very good telephone inquiry service and we have several services in the Welsh language. We are very proud of what we do. The fundamental point from our standpoint is that because we do all of these things, it is not acceptable for us to see other companies being permitted to do less. What BT provides should be a benchmark for the industry in general I think.

Q164 Mr Jones: If telecommunication services were removed from the scope of the LCO into a separate category, do you think that BT would still be covered by this because it falls into some other category?

Q165 Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) Another category? It describes receiving more than £200,000 of public funding and I do not quite understand what that means. We would be paid money for government services, so is it the income that counts or does the £200,000 refer only towards a subsidy? I am not entirely sure. If we were to be caught through that then it would be equally unacceptable I would say.

Q166 Mr Jones: (Through an Interpreter) Does BT provide a public service then in your opinion?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) We provide a service to our customers. We provide a service to small businesses. We provide a service to government bodies. If you define that as a public service, it is a service to customers. That is what we provide; that is how I would look at it. We serve customers.

Q167 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) You referred in passing then to the level of £200,000. I myself do not quite understand how it would operate, say, in ten years' time when the issue of £200,000 could be worth less. Is there a discussion do you feel or a debate amongst telecommunications businesses about this? Is there any understanding of what exactly this means to shed some light on it?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) The only thing I can say is that the issue of £200,000 has not come up specifically in my discussions in the sector. It has come up in my discussions with the voluntary sector because there are several charities who receive over £200,000 and it is a very, very difficult time for charities to take on additional costs, so it has been raised with me only really through the charity side. They are very concerned about it. It has also been touched on by some unions who have asked if they are going to be included in this because the trades unions receive subsidy from the National Assembly for training in the workplace, for example, and one of the Welsh language schemes that we are very pleased about is that we are working with the CWU and, through a subsidy for training on the workplace from the Assembly, we have a scheme to train our staff in the Welsh language; they volunteer themselves to learn Welsh. This afternoon in Newport John Griffiths, the Deputy Minister for Skills at the Assembly Government, is handing out certificates in Welsh to BT employees who have volunteered to learn Welsh and they have learned Welsh through a project which is being funded by the Assembly and BT and CWU have supported. So you could argue that the CWU also receives money from the Assembly for that. It is not entirely fair then that they should be penalised for that.

Q168 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Some people, for example the Welsh Language Society, favour bringing the private sector in, that we should actually measure it in terms of how much directive is provided to the public, some kind of grid if you like. You are a big company and you provide very many services to the public. Perhaps if you are big service and you do not, then you would be out. What is your opinion of how it is divvied up?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is very difficult to know where you draw the line because the market is changing all the time. There are many major companies - just as many as BT - in the sector who do nothing at the moment. There are small companies, and if maybe you suggested that the smaller companies should be drawn out of the Act then where do you draw the line because the smaller companies can actually grow to become big companies and the big ones could shrink to become smaller. I am not sure where you draw the line; that is part of the problem, how do you actually define the sector? The definition as I currently see it is actually quite comprehensive, it includes both large and small companies.

Q169 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Do you have any other definition then apart from this issue of £200,000 that you could propose?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) No, I am afraid I cannot offer any other.

Q170 Mark Williams: You mentioned this earlier on but you might like to say a little more. What is your understanding of additional services that companies operating in the telecommunications sector would be required to provide? Getting away from the generality of whether telecommunications should be in the LCO at all, what are the deficiencies in the current system in terms of language provision.

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) What is very difficult for us is to understand what we need to do. When the Act or the measure - when the measure is actually created - will it define exactly what services we have to provide? That is part of our problem, we do not understand. We have not had an explanation of what services will come under the measure. Is it going to include that you have to have call centre or you have to have a certain number of written materials or you have to have a public meeting to discuss the scheme. We do not know and because of that I do not exactly know what supplementary or additional services may be. All I can say is that within BT what we do is review our voluntary scheme on a consistent basis. We are currently reviewing it and amongst some of the things we are currently looking at is how to improve our service for the world of business. We have two companies who currently work on our behalf. We have changed the system of providing services to small companies through a franchise system so we are looking to see what they can do. The second thing that we have been looking at has been what we do for our staff. We have an annual staff review within BT and this year for the first time the staff have asked if it can be done in Welsh and it is done around the world so that everybody who works for BT can have the option if they would like to have it in Welsh. So that is additional. What we would tend to do is to add things as we see the demand arises. It is difficult for me to be more specific but because we do not know exactly what services will be set within the order we do not really know what we can do in addition to that. That is our confusion. We do not know what it is going to cost BT; we have no idea.

Q171 Mark Williams: Perhaps the Assembly will come up with a measure in due course, but how much consultation have you had with the National Assembly regarding the LCO specifically?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) We have had several meetings, formal and informal, with ministers directly just as BT and also through the CBI. We have made every effort to try to understand and try to contribute and to work in partnership. We would like to see the Welsh language prosper and our concern is that the legislation is not going to create that prosperity; it will be other things that create the prosperity. We have tried to suggest to the Assembly, for example, that they create a project around the issue of language brokers so that in the community there may be individuals who are tasked to go out to help language aspects in schools, with older people, people with young families, et cetera. We have suggested that. We have suggested marketing the Welsh language; we have suggested schemes within the workplace which would commit the company to make sure that we and our people are trained or encouraged to undertake these skills. So we have suggested all of these things; we really have tried extremely hard to be positive so that we do things to help the Welsh language in all opportunities. I am perfectly clear in mind that we have done everything we can to try to persuade people that legislation can be a waste of resources, can draw attention from the entirely essential thing, that the situation of the Welsh language continues to be fragile and in a situation where the language is fragile what we should do is support that language in the community, in the workplace and that is more important. The energy and resources should go into doing that and not just legislation.

Q172 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I wonder if it is possible to discuss the principle of the LCO without thinking of measures. Hypothetically what is your opinion, without going into too much depth about implications? What do you think here?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) BT would prefer to operate a voluntary scheme. We do not want to be included under any measure or any act. That is very simple.

Q173 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Following on from that then, if you look at voluntary measures, you acknowledged earlier in your evidence that BT is part of the telecommunications sector which makes a contribution. Do you think that is a measure of success? Do you think that is enough?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) I would go back to the point that Welsh speakers have to insist on receiving Welsh language services and that the responsibility is on the public sector to give the skills and the confidence for people to use the Welsh language. That is more healthy because ultimately the Welsh language has to be a living thing which needs to be relevant every day, which evolves every day. It has to be used consistently. That is why I think it is healthier that it should be voluntary. However, we would ensure that strict measures should be put in place to improve and increase use of the Welsh language. We would suggest that there should be expectations on a body like the Welsh Language Board, for them to receive specific targets, for example skills with the medium of Welsh, a number of community activities which are provided through the medium of Welsh and they should then report against those targets on an annual basis to an Assembly committee and say quite clearly what goes on, what the situation is in terms of the Welsh language. From what I understand at the moment the only target that exists is to increase the number of Welsh speakers or the percentage of people who can speak Welsh from 20% to 25% by the next census. I do not think that is going to happen. Is the target fair? I do not know if it is fair either. So what is a fair target to measure an activity? We need something out there at a grass roots level that really shows an increase in the use of the language. That is what I would like to see and it is difficult. That would create a situation where there would then be a demand and a draw for the Welsh language rather than it being pushed.

Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Hopefully the record will show that it was somebody from Plaid Cymru actually started this discussion.

Q174 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) You mentioned the level of demand for services, what level of demand is there at the moment within the telecommunications sector?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) The number of people who use Welsh language services are lower than I would like. We have promoted the 118 404 service quite a lot over the last 18 months and we spent some £85,000 promoting that service. We saw an increase of up to 10% in the use of the language but that was from a relatively low level. I think we need to push that figure up again through collaboration with the Assembly to promote the Welsh language services in general and increase awareness of the services that are available. The level is lower than I would like and I think from what I understand experience generally is similar in other companies but I cannot speak on their behalf.

Q175 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Looking at the 118 404 service, is that an adequate measure of the demand do you think?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is a hard measure, if you like. We can say quite specifically how many telephone calls are received; how many are calls from terrestrial lines and how many come from mobile lines. There is something like 65% from terrestrial and 35% from mobile lines. We do have hard figures and we can see what they are and we could do something similar for the telephone service where you can phone up to order your phone, for example, in Welsh. So we can do that as well. I have not been keen to publish the figures to be honest because I think they are not too encouraging.

Q176 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) My question regarding demand is in two parts. If the demand is not particularly high, is that not proof that the voluntary method is not particularly effective? Secondly, there may be some people who would be keen to know about a linguistic planning. Perhaps the vast majority of them would say that it is not a separate discrete service that is the most effective is perhaps a service which has been tied in to a general provision rather than a separate service.

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is very difficult to tie in anything to our general services because our general services are run on a whole Britain-wide level so splitting them out would be far too complex and I do not think it would be an equally good service. The Welsh language service is very good; they perform particularly highly within our service levels and they are very effective. The staff are extremely good. I do not think we would actually be able to create a system whereby we integrated everything into one.

Q177 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I do not want to take up too much time and draw too much on the Chairman's patience, but you have said two things there. Your demand for service, which is a discrete service under the voluntary system, is not particularly high; it does not generate a high demand. Then you say that you cannot actually tie it in because of the demands of your company. Is it a voluntary option to go down the route of a discrete service or one which has been enforced upon you because of the nature of the business?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) No, what we have done has been to create an identity for the Welsh language service. We have promoted the Welsh language service very hard in order to ensure that people feel that they have something special for them; the Welsh speakers have something which is specifically for them. I think that is going to be more acceptable and appealing than something which works through a system which would have to be quite mechanistic really because you have to press a lot of buttons to ask for a Welsh language service or whatever, whereas with the current service you just go straight through to the Welsh language service so you do not have to go through lots of different buttons and lots of voices.

Q178 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) If I can go back very quickly to providing services in the medium of Welsh, do you think that that is a commercial advantage to companies?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) I do not think it is. I hope that we do two things, that we do provide a service for customers who wish to use our services but that we also show that we, as a company, have a social responsibility and that we can see the Welsh language as having an importance in the life of Wales. We would like to do that for two reasons, not just for the commercial reason. What we have said in our evidence is that we believe that there are ways in which public bodies can state through their purchasing that there is a commercial advantage to be had. At the moment we can strengthen that within the purchasing system. We can say, "If you offer Welsh language services, as long as everything else is equal, the fact that you have a Welsh language service is going to help you to attract business". There is a document which has been published by central government and we make reference to where that is suggested for all kinds of equalities within commercial companies. I do not think there is a commercial advantage at the moment, no, unfortunately.

Q179 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) You do provide a high level of services according to the evidence you publish. Considering that you do reach much, much higher than is expected, if you like, why are you against being included?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) Because we do not understand what the additional cost would be, what the advantage would be to our customers and to what extent that would enable us to provide better services. The danger is that if there is a low benchmark then the services would be lesser. That is another danger. If the other companies in the sector are authorised to have reached the objectives of the measure and the benchmark is lower, then it obviously means that our services may decline. Who knows? So the aim is to make sure that we do the best we can.

Q180 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) If there is a benchmark for every company then they would all be competing on a level playing field. You are saying about a low level of provision but the reality at the moment is that you have provision and nobody else has any.

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) It is the responsibility of the other companies to provide services through the medium of Welsh. We do so; we do what we should be doing. We cannot decide what they should do.

Q181 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) It is the principle of the LCO, that it includes everybody and in including everybody there would be a responsibility upon them to actually provide things.

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) If the measure went through. Ensuring that the whole range of companies which are included in the definition actually achieve the needs, that is going to be a very, very difficult process and a huge challenge. Is it worth the trouble of trying to implement legislation which will be very, very difficult to implement? It is going to take a lot of time and energy to get the whole sector to accept that that is what should happen. We could use that time and energy to promote the services which currently exist and in seeing that increasing then perhaps the others would follow.

Q182 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) Unfortunately you were not here earlier on when the Welsh Language Board said that the requirement that they would have would be very simple and also they referred to other countries across the world where provisions in several languages are very common place. Ireland has services available in Irish and adverts available in Irish, et cetera. Where does it lie with you, then? Is it very difficult to include everybody who provides services or, as the Welsh Language Board says and experience from other countries shows (Catalonia, India, Italy), is relatively easy?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) I would like to understand what the simple process is because nobody has been able to explain to me what this simple process is to begin with. I would not accept that Ireland is a particularly good example because I do not think the Irish language is a language which is currently prospering unfortunately.

Q183 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) We are talking about provision.

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) Yes but the difficulty is actually measuring the provision. That is not sufficient. You need to actually measure the use of the language and the use of the provision. What is important is the actual use of the services. That is true for the public sector as well. How many services provided by the public sector are actually used and how many make a difference? It always comes back to the measurements. There has to be an understanding of what measurements should be in place and we can all then see what they are and we can ensure that there is a reporting against those on an annual basis. We should see that there is a genuine effort made and if we cannot see that an effort is being made then we need to change it. We have to work very, very hard to make sure there is an increasing use.

Q184 Hywel Williams: (Through an Interpreter) I do not want to go into too much detail about linguistic planning but the Welsh Language Board also said that it is not a simple matter of linguistic planning. Some people may say that measures which concentrate on the demand and need is perhaps where you look at linguistic planning. Do you put a lot of emphasis on the demand?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) Yes I do because I do not see there being enough emphasis on that side. The balance, if you like, is very imbalanced and I would like to see some kind of indication at least that there is a genuine thinking going on on the side of need. Is there any plan even being discussed to increase levels of skills? Are there any marketing schemes genuinely being planned or discussed? I am not aware of any. So my uncertainty continues unless I can actually see indications that something is happening on this side of the balance rather than just the other side.

Q185 Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Can I close then in asking the final question in relation to freedom to use the Welsh language. This is Matter 20.2. In what situations would you anticipate this impacting BT?

Ms Beynon: (Through an Interpreter) At the moment if anyone who works for BT wants to use the Welsh language then there is support for them to do so, as I earlier described, even to learn the Welsh language within working hours. Any customers or any persons who wish to communicate with us in Welsh we of course welcome that. If anybody wants to hold meetings with us in Welsh we would welcome that. We respect people's rights to wish to use the Welsh language and we do everything we can to help them and promote and facilitate that. To me it is a matter of respect and of equality.

Chairman: (Through an Interpreter) Thank you very much for your evidence. You were very clear and very eloquent, if I may say. Thank you.