UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 305-vi

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

WELSH AFFAIRS Committee

Bangor University

DIGITAL INCLUSION IN WALES

MONday 11 MAY 2009

MR HUW GAPPER AND MS GWENITH PRICE

MR ROB HUMPHREYS, MS JANE WILLIAMS AND MR DEWI KNIGHT

MR DAVID LEARMONT AND PROFESSOR SIAN HOPE

Evidence heard in Public Questions 328 - 412

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee

on Monday 11 May 2009

Members present

Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair

Mr David Jones

Alun Michael

Mr Martyn Jones

________________

Memorandum submitted by Welsh Language Board

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Mr Huw Gapper, Head of Central Government Unit, and Ms Gwenith Price, Director of Language Schemes, Welsh Language Board, gave evidence.

Q328 Chairman: (Through an interpreter) Welcome to this meeting of the Welsh Affairs Committee. Could you introduce yourselves, please?

Ms Price: (Through an interpreter) Thank you for the invitation, Mr Chair. I am Gwenith Price and I work for the Welsh Language Board.

Mr Gapper: (Through an interpreter) I also work for the Welsh Language Board.

Q329 Chairman: (Through an interpreter) I will be asking questions in Welsh and English and we are quite willing for you to answer in Welsh or English - but not in any other language, if you please! I hope you can understand my South Wales accent. Firstly, can I ask you: how could the Government help with the situation, especially the needs of the people in Wales regarding digital inclusion?

Mr Gapper: (Through an interpreter) I would like to start by saying that there are obvious opportunities to enrich people's lives in Wales with IT, Welsh speakers and non Welsh speakers, with digital inclusion. In responding to the Government's digital inclusion action plan, we have noted where we feel we need to consider the Welsh language in developing and implementing that plan. We have concentrated on the provision of service in the medium of Welsh through IT. We realise that the Welsh Assembly Government have already done quite a lot of work in terms of ensuring that Welsh speakers have opportunities to use the language of their choice in using technology. They have a digital inclusion unit of course within the government and they are developing a digital inclusion scheme for Wales, and they have appointed brokers throughout Wales to help people to use technology to communicate through the medium of Welsh. At a UK level, I believe we need to consider the Welsh language in developing the digital inclusion charter, and for that to be part of the plan; and the role of the digital inclusion promoter will be extremely important. As we have noted in the written evidence, we feel that it is important that the promoter is there to raise awareness of the needs of Welsh speakers, to provide a point of contact for the digital inclusion unit, between that unit and at the UK level.

Q330 Chairman: (Through an interpreter) Can I ask you quite a simple question to me! This could pose a problem for a lot of people outside the digital world; is it a problem for you to develop a technical vocabulary to explain to people, not non Welsh speakers but Welsh speakers themselves, because everything throughout the world is in English?

Ms Price: (Through an interpreter) This is a challenge when you work in the field of linguistic planning in terms of minority language, and it might pose a particular challenge in the field of technology when you consider, as you say, that English is seen as a global language. We have done some work. There is a European computer licence available; a course is available through the medium of Welsh; and CDs are available for anybody who wishes to receive them. That project was launched with Microsoft, and it deals with digital literacy, to help people to understand. That was launched in 2008. Work is being done. When you look at the role of the Board and the Government and the different specialist bodies, there is specific work ongoing to consider terminology; and the Board has been calling for the establishment of a centre to standardise, develop and promote that terminology.

Mr Gapper: (Through an interpreter) You are talking about assisting individuals to help them to use technology. Reference has already been made to the European IT driving licence, which is available through the medium of Welsh. At a Welsh level there is assistance available as well. In terms of internet security, you have E-security Wales which is available through the medium of Welsh; you have the Digital Literacy Network Wales, which is available through the medium of Welsh, and practical information about how to use IT through the medium of Welsh. Perhaps at the UK level, where more resources are available, you received evidence from bodies such as Safe Online and WLJ, regarding information for parents for instance about online security for children. At a UK level I think there are a few Welsh medium resources available.

Q331 Chairman: (Through an interpreter) Are the people from the Assembly taking an interest in this issue? Have you appeared before different committees of the Assembly to explain your work?

Mr Gapper: (Through an interpreter) No.

Q332 Mr Martyn Jones: What evidence is there about the extent of Welsh language provision on the internet and the popularity of Welsh language sites?

Mr Gapper: (Through an interpreter) It is really difficult to know the extent of the Welsh medium provision on the internet because it is not centralised and it is very difficult to assess. I think what is apparent is that Welsh speakers do want Welsh medium provision on the internet. For instance, if you think about content developed by Welsh speakers themselves, such as Maes-e dotCYM, which is similar to Welsh Facebook, Welsh speakers themselves have developed this content, so obviously Welsh speakers do want Welsh medium provision. However, to quantify it is a difficult question.

Q333 Mr Martyn Jones: Can you do anything in that area in terms of increasing Welsh provision on the internet? Have you had any people writing in, or phoning or e-mailing?

Ms Price: (Through an interpreter) Our work - and Huw and myself in particular - we work on language plans. Under Part 2 of the Act we have 510 establishments with language plans at the moment, and they place Welsh medium content on the Web. Obviously, we cannot monitor every website with the resources we have, but the public sector provides this service. If you look at the UK level, our link with the Crown bodies is not as established perhaps as it is with the Welsh organisations. If you look at the different departments in Whitehall, there are eight that do not have any Welsh language policy. If you look at the private sector, the Board has no power for instance with banking or mobile phones, things people use in their everyday lives. It is much less in terms of the internet. If you look at it from the user's perspective, I am not quite sure whether there is any way that we follow where the powers lie, so we do more work with the public sector and less with the private sector - less than we would like to see, perhaps, in terms of the minority language and its survival. If you look at what is available on the internet, it is essential that Welsh is a viable modern language. We would like to see more content for young people on the internet. It is much easier to look at the provision and to measure what is available than it is then to measure the use. If you are asking about popularity and using that, we would say that we need to change people's behaviour and make the Welsh language the norm, and then people will get use of it. This is the challenge. It is like stopping smoking or healthy eating; it is difficult to see how many people do this or use this, and the factors that affect people's use of it. I would like to start on that work of measuring the use and promoting the use by perhaps a champion for promoting digital inclusion within the Assembly.

Q334 Alun Michael: (Through an interpreter) We were expecting to have somebody from dotCYM to say something about this concept, and I do not want to ask you to give evidence on their behalf but it would be interesting to know the Board's point of view on this concept of dotCYM. It is clear that it is important as an address, but there is a plethora of addresses ‑ dot-com and dot-org and so on. Does the Board think that this concept of dotCYM would give something additional which would be valuable and worth having, or do you think it will not make much difference when you realise that there is so much choice available to start off with?

Ms Price: (Through an interpreter) If you think about our work in terms of planning the status of the Welsh language there might be a value to it, but when new things are happening so quickly in terms of setting basic actions and steps and supporting different systems, I think, we need to think about an integrated scheme for the Welsh language that would add value; but in terms of the day-to-day work we do we do not say, as language planning practitioners, that this is the main thing on our agenda.

Q335 Alun Michael: (Through an interpreter) Do you think that if that happened it would give people the idea, when they look at the address, that it seems that the Welsh language is being used on that particular website?

Ms Price: (Through an interpreter) Yes. It is an expression, and I think there was evidence from the Institute of Education about people being able to identify with content, so from that point of view having that address would help people identify, and they would be able to choose to click on that address.

Q336 Alun Michael: (Through an interpreter) That is reasonable. One thing in the evidence that emerged from the paper was the concept in dotCYM's paper that having dotCYM would, to quote in English ... I feel that it is difficult to know how that would happen.

Ms Price: (Through an interpreter) I do not know in terms of policing this and ensuring security. We need to create new opportunities for Welsh speakers to use the Welsh language outside the family and outside school; and if this address helps people, that would be a good thing.

Q337 Mr David Jones: To what extent are you satisfied that media literacy and internet awareness initiatives in Wales make adequate provision for Welsh speakers?

Mr Gapper: (Through an interpreter) In Wales, as I mentioned previously, the resources of the digital services aimed specifically at Wales produced by organisations in Wales are available bilingually, referring to E-security Wales, The digital literacy network websites are available bilingually, and there is a literacy plan for media as well. We will need to assist Welsh speakers to use this technology, but of course there are many more digital literacy resources available. The government departments themselves offer such resources and BT for instance offers the Internet Green Cross Code to help people to use the internet safely. At the UK level there are a number of digital literacy programmes available. There are a few available through the medium of Welsh.

Q338 Alun Michael: (Through an interpreter) We have heard an idea from somebody in Oxford - I am not quite sure what is behind this idea - that bilingual people world-wide, or people who speak more than two languages, make greater use of the internet than people who only speak one language. As a board, have you undertaken research into the way that people who are bilingual in terms of English and Welsh use the internet: is there anything here perhaps that is important for us in Wales?

Ms Price: (Through an interpreter) We spoke to the statistician, and what we have in Wales are Living Wales Surveys 2004, which cover use of internet programmes and so on; and the statistics are mixed. They vary year on year and are up and down. If you look at the mixed bilingual Welsh family, English speaking family, 37% of Welsh speaking families use the internet, where 62% mixed language use the internet; and 39% for all Wales. If you look at it area by area, urban and rural, the percentages change again. There is further research that needs to be done before we can come to any conclusions about the pattern. We have heard about rural areas, that access to broadband is a problem; so maybe the infrastructure makes you think there are difficulties in receiving the internet in some areas. Once you get the access and once the level of content is there and there is sufficient content available, it will be possible to come to a conclusion, but we can look at this and we will work on this.

Alun Michael: (Through an interpreter) It will be interesting to see how the research progresses.

Q339 Mr Martyn Jones: Do you think the problems with digital infrastructure in Wales, such as broadband "not spots" might impact disproportionately because of geography? I have "not spots" in my constituency and I am sure there are "not spots" in most of Wales: do these disproportionately affect access to broadband?

Mr Gapper: (Through an interpreter) When you look at BT's evidence, about 60% of the "not spots" - there are 60 of these "not spots" scattered throughout Wales; but in some areas, for instance in Carmarthenshire, which do have higher percentages of Welsh speakers, it is difficult to say whether a lack of technology infrastructure, be it mobile phone or broadband, has a greater effect on Welsh speakers. As Gwenith just stated, from research work that has already been undertaken it seems that Welsh speaking families, when you compare them to mixed language or English-speaking families, have less access to the internet. As Sir Michael suggested, we need further research into access to the internet.

Q340 Chairman: (Through an interpreter) Lastly, to return to this question of dotCYM; as a committee we understand that this idea came to some extent from dot-Cat in Catalonia. Has the Language board looked at the success of dot-Cat at all?

Ms Price: (Through an interpreter) No, I am not aware of any work which we have done. We have a network where we do collaborate with other minority languages in Europe, and we would be happy to find information for you today about that issue.

Chairman: Thank you very much for your verbal and written evidence. We would be very grateful to hear from you regarding dot-Cat and anything else that you feel we have not discussed this afternoon. Thank you very much indeed.

Memorandum submitted by Open University, Wales

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Mr Rob Humphreys, Director, Ms Jane Williams, Assistant director, and Mr Dewi Knight, Policy and Public Affairs Manager, Open University, Wales, gave evidence.

Q341 Chairman: Welcome. Can you introduce yourselves for the record?

Mr Humphreys: I am Rob Humphreys, I am the Director of the Open University in Wales.

Mr Knight: Dewi Knight, Policy and Public Affairs manager of the Open University in Wales.

Ms Williams: Jane Williams, Assistant Director of the Open University of Wales.

Q342 Chairman: Thank you very much, and thank you for helping us with this inquiry and your evidence. Can I begin by asking you a very simple, straightforward question, about the government's digital inclusion action plan! Do you think it takes sufficient account of the needs of those who wish to access higher education, particularly the students that you wish to attract?

Mr Humphreys: First of all, we welcome the report, Chairman. It is good to see the government looking at these issues in some detail. We also welcome the fact that the government recognises that the rapid pace of change in terms of digital technology gives us great opportunities in education and other areas, but there are also risks of reproducing existing social divisions and deprivation, and perhaps even creating new ones. That is where our main focus of concern is. There are many good things as well, of course, but there are concerns in that area because we are charged - rightly I think - by the Assembly Government and the Funding council in Wales with our education sector colleagues, addressing issues around widening access. There is something of an inbuilt tension here. We want to widen access of our citizens into HE, and we have a big role to play in that. If those citizens do not have access to broadband, whether for a financial or technological reason, clearly there is something of a dilemma there. Whilst we are a distance learning institution, it is likely in the future that many institutions in higher education and further education will be using more and more technology to deliver their opportunities.

Q343 Mr David Jones: It seems to me that potentially in the future, if not now, the sort of activities that the Open University wants to conduct online could make quite intensive use of band width. My concern about the Digital Britain Report is the rather unambitious target in terms of university service commitments proposed for 2012, which as you know, in any event has been diluted by recent comments by Lord Carter. To what extent is your view that a 2 mega bit commitment will be sufficient or insufficient for the purposes that a university may wish to put it?

Mr Humphreys: We would want the government to be a little more ambitious. The pace of change is considerable. One of the lessons which the Open University has learnt over many years - we are at the cutting edge of this development - is that first of all the pace of change is massive and will be in five, ten or fifteen years' time. Secondly, you cannot do this kind of work on the cheap; it requires considerable investment in content and the technology. Thirdly, the student, or customer or consumer, however you want to describe them, expect the best. If they are getting very hi-tech products in terms of gaming and watching films, it is going to be a disincentive if they are faced with something that is cheap and cheerful in terms of their learning experience. There are risks that if the targets are unambitious, what is capable of being achieved in terms of education materials may be in excess of what the infrastructure is able to deliver. That could be a real problem and we could be bumping up against that. One of the real worries for us would be if somehow the infrastructure had less capacity in Wales than elsewhere in the UK. That would be a real concern for us.

Q344 Mr David Jones: Is that a real danger, in your view?

Mr Humphreys: I would not want to say definitively. I would say that in this kind of area - and I am sure the members of the Committee are more familiar than we are - when UK-wide statistics are used, they say that statistics are all about, for example, 90% or 95% coverage; but it does not follow that it is the same proportion in Wales. It is lower because of the "not spots" issues, the distance from exchanges and achieving a good coverage in rural areas. There are some concerns there. Sometimes the stack can look good at UK level, but when you break it down into the nations and regions of the UK, it is completely different.

Q345 Chairman: Bringing us back to higher education - and as a historian you will be familiar with what Trotsky said -----

Mr Humphreys: I will do my best to rack my brains, Chairman!

Q346 Chairman: War being the engine of history! What role does the higher education sector have in being the engine particularly in alliance with the strategy of digital inclusion to achieve a more effective knowledge economy?

Mr Humphreys: I like to think it is almost taken as read now, that without a thriving and prosperous HE sector in Wales or wherever, in a modern post-industrial society it is impossible to conceive of a prosperous and inclusive economy in the future. As I suggested earlier, as more and more HE educational opportunities are offered online, these things go hand in hand; so infrastructure that will enable us to deliver stuff online, and indeed an infrastructure that is genuinely inclusive, will become one of the fulcrums on which our future prosperity depends. I do not know if that is helpful.

Q347 Chairman: Yes, it is very helpful. You obviously cannot speak on behalf of the whole sector, but can you make an observation about it? Do you feel comfortable with the extent to which the higher education sector is making efforts in this direction? Is there a sector-wide strategy in relation to digital inclusion? I will put it differently, to give you more time: can you tell us whether HEFCW has a strategy?

Mr Humphreys: HEFCW has a strategy on e-learning that is closely related to this. It would be fair to say that that strategy needs further development in time, although to be fair to HEFCW we as a university have only recently come into HEFCW funding, a block grant effectively but we have come to be funded by HEFCW from the Assembly Government; but in order to give us greater purchase in Wales and to give HEFCW a greater ability to utilise what we have got to offer. As regards the wider question, Chair, whether the sector as a whole has a policy on digital inclusion, the best way to answer that would be to say that the Open University in Wales seeks a fully worked-out policy on digital inclusion in Wales in order that we can contribute fully to the economic development and cultural and educational needs of Wales, and meet the demands of the Assembly Government in that sphere.

Q348 Chairman: On the question of the Welsh Assembly Government, do you have a vigorous dialogue with the government on this question of digital inclusion? Is there a forum for it?

Mr Humphreys: It would be via the funding Council on behalf of the Welsh Assembly Government in this sphere. Dialogues take place undoubtedly in this area.

Q349 Alun Michael: I was interested in that last sentence. Can you tell us whether the Open University in Wales does more, less or about the same in terms of that sort of average, compared to the Open University's work in the regions of England for instance?

Mr Humphreys: Proportionately it is roughly the same by population compared with England as a whole. We are fractionally under the Barnett Formula proportion of the work. In terms of widening access work, our performance exceeds the current HEFCW target in that area. There is a greater proportion of our students who are in receipt of financial support than many of the regions of England.

Q350 Alun Michael: You say you are doing reasonably well in terms of that target.

Mr Humphreys: Yes, although we always want to do better. We have recently made appointments in that area in order to strengthen our work in that area even further.

Q328 Alun Michael: We had some interesting discussion about what "outreach" means in discussion with people in an informal session this morning. There is the aspiration in Wales to turn the internet and access to ICT into an engine for greater inclusion rather than what we are worrying about, which is that as access to the internet plateaus, more and more people are being left behind, with a divide opening up. What is your sense of the way that is developing in Wales generally; and in that context how do you see the current future role of the Open University?

Mr Humphreys: I think we have some concerns about it in terms of the pace of change reinforcing existing inequalities, particularly around poverty and disadvantage, and perhaps even creating new ones for older people, not necessarily on low incomes, who do not access broadband - whether that is choice or unfamiliarity. There is always a sense in which that can hinder our capacity to deliver to all sections of the community in Wales. For example, there is a very important skills agenda where people have a huge amount to offer. We have got some students who are sponsored by employers, including small employers. That is always a concern. It is not just individuals or households accessing the internet with sufficient broadband speed and so on, but it is about small businesses and their capacity in regard to skills training and availing themselves of our services. There may well be advantages in people accessing that at their workplace but small businesses able to, or choosing not to. That itself could potentially hinder that capacity.

Q352 Alun Michael: You referred specifically to older people, and there is a good deal of evidence that an older dog can learn new tricks if the opportunity is there early enough; in other words, when people have got some time because they are taking early retirement or are even at retirement age; whereas it becomes more and more difficult as they become older and perhaps at a period in life when the potential benefit is actually greater but it is more difficult to access. There is a parallel between digital access and wider learning here. Do you have a specific target in terms of engagement with older people and what one might regard as young retired people in your strategy?

Mr Humphreys: No, we do not have a specific target. It is something we ought to look at. In reaching people like that, and in other categories, we seek sometimes to work with other organisations and brokers and intermediaries, for example FE colleges, which have a footprint on the ground. It is (inaudible) week this week, so we are participating in the various learning festivals that (inaudible) Cymru run throughout Wales. That is a way of us meeting that kind of deficit. We can speak to people face to face. Another example, in terms of course material - and Jane can say more about this - is that one of our courses, Understanding Health built in ICT components, and Jane can say a little bit more about that.

Ms Williams: The course Rob is talking about is part of our opening suite of courses. You can probably think of it as an access course. Students coming on to that are from all age ranges, and usually very unconfident. It is usually a ten-point course, but as a pilot we are adding on an extra five points. That will teach people how to use computers, and hence prepare them for study with the OU; but generally it will help them pick up the skills they need for using PCs. It is very much about helping non-traditional students master ICT for HE study. That will be presented for the first time in September, so we are currently recruiting on that at the moment. If that goes well, we would hope to incorporate that element in all our opening courses.

Q353 Alun Michael: When I was Rural Affairs Minister, one of the things that impressed me went under the title Computers for the Terrified, which allowed people to come along without having to admit that they are worried because it is assumed that everybody is. Things like that are very useful. Looking at the wider aspect of people who are disadvantaged one way or another - either their schooling is so far distant in time, or the basics of computer literacy were not available then, or, by the nature of their education, employment or whatever, they are not part of the digital age - what do you think the scope is for online learning and the use of the techniques of distance learning, where you are the leading brand? What contribution do you think that can make, or do people have to take a first foot over the threshold through more traditional means?

Mr Humphreys: I think it is horses for courses. Different people will respond in different ways. There will be many people who would come straight to us because they are familiar. It does not have to be in the home; it could be in libraries or workplaces. For others, as you say, the first foot via an intermediary organisation might be the appropriate route for them. It does not mean they are less able, but perhaps they are less familiar with the method of delivery. It is our job to ensure that we maximise our effort to reach both categories and not ring-fence one category and say, "this is not for you". It is a social obligation and social justice, it seems to me.

Q354 Alun Michael: Would digital inclusion and social inclusion be achieved to a greater extent if a wider range of institutions offered online learning opportunities?

Mr Humphreys: Yes, I think that is true. Sometimes institutions that do not do this on a day-to-day basis can under-estimate the cost. The way the OU materials are constructed are, in a sense, a whole learning environment, and again Jane can say more about this. It is a whole educational experience; it is much more than just putting some lecture notes and a face‑to‑face course on to an internet site; the whole thing has to be constructed from the very start. It is a distance-learning programme, where you interact with your tutor and other students, through conferencing by e-mail or live video conferencing and so on. It is not cheap to do, and to change courses means more than simply changing lecture notes. It means altering course content, and sometimes even software.

Q355 Alun Michael: Do you think the Open University in Wales has a leadership role in relation to the work of higher education in this sphere generally?

Mr Humphreys: Yes, I would say we do, simply because of our long expertise and the considerable investment we have made in the past, and we would be happy to play that leadership role. We are certainly keen to play in as partners, because clearly other institutions have enormous strengths themselves, but maybe different strengths. It is important that we get the synergy from each institution playing to its strength.

Q356 Mr David Jones: Would it be fair to say that online degrees possibly do not have the same status as degrees obtained through more traditional routes? Would you say that that was a fair perception?

Mr Humphreys: I would not say it is a fair perception at all, particularly in the case of our own institution. I do not want to speak for any other institutions, but we are subject to the remit of the Quality Assurance Agency just the same as any other institution in the UK in higher education. We have recently had an audit from QAA and we have every confidence that it will be more than satisfactory. I do not think it is fair to say that, in the case of the Open University, at all.

Q357 Mr David Jones: Do you think that perception is there, though?

Mr Humphreys: Not in the case of our institution. It may or may not be in the case of others, from overseas or whatever.

Q358 Mr David Jones: You said in reply to Alun Michael that you felt that some more traditional education institutions were deterred by the cost of going down the training route. Are there any other barriers? The Committee has had some advice that one of the other barriers may be the lack of opportunity for interaction between students and the academic staff.

Mr Humphreys: That is a very interesting question. The Open University over the last three or four years has come top in the national students' satisfaction poll. Jane will explain that our students have considerable interaction with the teaching staff. This bears upon my point earlier that online delivery in our case is built around a whole educational experience that includes interaction. It is not something that keeps the students over there because it is distance learning.

Ms Williams: Obviously, it is very difficult for our students to attend face‑to‑face sessions with their tutors, the academic staff responsible for them. However, we are doing a lot of pioneering work here in Wales, using something called Illuminate. I do not know whether you have come across that. It is a synchronous conferencing tool. With that, the tutor can post materials on a white board; students can interact on the white board alongside the tutor; the tutor can use it for file-sharing, document-sharing. A simultaneous chat can be going on between the students and the tutor. We are doing a lot of work so that students can interact with their tutor. We make use of forums and through the forums students can interact with each other and with their tutor, and they can interact with academic staff based in Milton Keynes. Contact for students is very good.

Q359 Mr David Jones: You said in reply to Alun Michael that you would be quite happy to undertake a leadership role in terms of online education. To what extent are you already engaging with other academic institutions with a view to making distance learning online far more ubiquitous than it is at present?

Mr Humphreys: Our interaction with the rest of the sector in Wales and other sectors has some way to go. I do not want to into the intricacies of this, but we are still in transitional funding, and do not become fully funded from HEFCW until the end of next year. That will give us greater capacity and flexibility to operate as a Welsh DGI, as part of a much larger parent body. An example would be our work with Neath College in terms of delivery of foundation units, which is a win/win situation for us and for Neath College to develop something which they do not wish to fully develop from scratch. If you like, we share the students.

Q360 Mr David Jones: To what extent do you find, if in fact you find at all, that other HE institutions in Wales are prepared to accept your leadership in terms of online education? Have you had any discussions apart from with Neath?

Mr Humphreys: That is a question that would be better asked of us in a couple of years' time. It is a little bit early for me to say.

Q361 Mr Martyn Jones: To what extent is the lack of access to basic IT hardware an issue with those people trying to undertake higher education courses?

Mr Humphreys: It is an issue, and we have got certain provisions in place to make it available in terms of laptops and so on. There is no denying that students with very low incomes is a big issue.

Q362 Mr Martyn Jones: Is there any data on that?

Mr Humphreys: We can supply that.

Q363 Chairman: Can I turn to the question of levels of media literacy: have you done any study or survey of your own students and their understanding of media literacy?

Ms Williams: I am not aware of anything, but I can certainly look. We have not done anything in the Open University in Wales, but I can look to see if anything has been done from the Open University centrally.

Mr Humphreys: At UK level. In that area it is probably something we should do, but we would tend to look to Ofcom Cymru for their statistics.

Q364 Chairman: It would not be part of your current -----

Mr Humphreys: Other than the kind of stuff Jane referred to earlier on in terms of people learning to use ICT alongside learning substantive course material.

Q365 Chairman: Do you think higher education institutions could do more in this field in Wales?

Mr Humphreys: Yes, probably, but alongside schools and the FE sector as well. Media literacy is something of an elastic concept.

Q366 Chairman: That is right. I am looking at our notes here. It includes a proposal to ask Ofcom to make an assessment of its current media literacy responsibilities and to recommend "a new definition and ambition for a National media Literacy Plan".

Mr Humphreys: Ofcom has a statutory duty under the Communications Act some time ago to promote media literacy. We are certainly interested in media literacy in terms of people's capacity to utilise ICT. As you may expect from the HE institutions, we are also interested in people's capacity to understand the social dimensions, indeed the political dimensions of new technologies and so on, and issues around power and the economy are involved in technology in the press and media and so on.

Q367 Chairman: We understand that Ofcom defines media literacy as the ability to access, understand and create communications in a variety of contexts. That sounds like the kind of thing you would have done perhaps in the 70s or 80s. That is what I would imagine the OU student would have been very engaged in, in the 70s and 80s.

Mr Humphreys: I think you are right.

Q368 Chairman: You tend to think of OU students as having very inquiring minds, perhaps over and beyond the traditional 21-year old.

Mr Humphreys: Yes, of course, and students in our social science faculty on some social science courses would indeed be engaged in unpicking how the media works, in courses of that nature. There is a sense now in which the new technologies - it is simply the water we swim in, in the Open University. In the same way that we used television when television was a relatively new technology, it is just what we do.

Q369 Mr David Jones: Is there not the further difficulty that the difference between media literacy and traditional literacy is that in terms of traditional literacy once you can read, you can read, and that is the end of it; but there is such an exponential development of new technology that it is very hard to see who is at any one particular time media literate and who is not, because the media changes all the time.

Mr Humphreys: That is a very good point. There may be people in this room - I would be one of them anyway - I like to think I am very confident in using a PC, laptops and so on; but in due course our students may be utilising a much mobile form of ICT. PDAs already have the ability to use downloads, podcasts and course materials and things like that. I think you are right, Mr Jones, that in five or ten years' time that is likely to develop to a considerable extent and people will be learning on the move, which one could not have imagined ten years ago.

Ms Williams: Can I add something here? I think when our courses are designed, then the media for the course is chosen dependent on how the course team wants to put the particular materials over, and then media literacy would be included in the learning outcomes for that course right from the start, so they would be built in.

Q370 Chairman: If Raymond Williams were here today - and sadly he is not - what would he say?

Mr Humphreys: I think perhaps he might have said that adult education remains something which ought to be of great significance in terms of the way we value it in contemporary society, but perhaps he would also recognise the way it is delivered now and likely to be delivered in the future will be very different from the way it was delivered in the 1950s or 1960s. He might also say that social justice remains something very significant within adult education and education as a whole, and therefore digital inclusion is deeply entangled with notions of social justice, and indeed citizenship for that matter, in terms of equality of access and so on.

Q371 Chairman: Thank you very much for your evidence today and for your written evidence. As we say to all our witnesses, if you feel there are some points we have not covered we would be very grateful to receive further written evidence.

Mr Humphreys: Thank you for the opportunity. We promised Mr Jones some additional information.

Memorandum submitted by Bangor University

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Mr David Learmont, Director of Information and Library Services, and Professor Siān Hope, Deputy Pro Vice Chancellor, Bangor University, gave evidence.

Q372 Chairman: Welcome to the Welsh Affairs Committee. Would you introduce yourselves?

Professor Hope: I am Professor Siān Hope, Professor of Computer Science, and Deputy Pro Vice Chancellor in the University in Bangor.

Mr Learmont: I am David Learmont. I am Director of Information Library Services at the University.

Q373 Chairman: Thank you very much. Thank you for your written evidence. Can I begin by asking you the question we asked other witnesses: do you think the government's digital inclusion action plan takes sufficient account of the needs of those who wish to access higher education?

Professor Hope: If I could answer that first of all by saying "yes" and "no", so I will come on to the details of the "yes" and the "no", so forgive me for not being specific at this point. We will come on to the ambition of it and where we are going. What I do think is missing is about the access to research and how people can access research in universities as well as education, and the skills element of what universities do is one very important aspect. Digital inclusion is about communicating the results of research, just as much as it is about communicating the results of skills and transferring knowledge in that way. I will hand to David to answer where it does.

Mr Learmont: Reading the paper, there is very little explicit reference to a higher education paper. However, there is a very powerful connection between social exclusion and digital inclusion.

Q374 Alun Michael: Which paper are you talking about - the action plan?

Mr Learmont: The action plan, the original document.

Q375 Alun Michael: The government's interim action plan?

Mr Learmont: That is correct. Implicitly there is a powerful connection with HE, but not explicitly.

Q376 Chairman: Can you explain to us how you think higher education could play a greater role in all of this?

Professor Hope: I will kick off, if I may, because I think we can play a higher role in linking collaboratively with FE and the Open University. We need to look at a more joined-up approach, and it behoves higher education institutions to collaborate more. We are doing it regionally now in North Wales, and it is something we should be doing on the skills level in particular, to be collaborative and make sure that we have a joined-up skills strategy that works across the different levels of education. The other element is to do with the content, where the Open University is very strong, but a lot of content is about communicating, and content about research is quite critical. HE, as a sector, should communicate and be forced to look at how we communicate the results of our research in a clearly defined way.

Q377 Chairman: Could you say a bit more about this regional approach? Who are the stakeholders?

Professor Hope: In Wales there is a Transforming Education agenda from DCells, and previously Bangor University has led the Community University of North Wales, which has included all HE and all FE delivery bodies across North Wales, and that Community University of North Wales still exists. There is now a Transforming Education agenda in Wales, and currently we are looking at particularly local partnerships based around spatial planned areas to make sure we have a joined-up approach through schools to FE to HE.

Q378 Chairman: Do you deliver degree programmes within the community?

Professor Hope: We have some degree programmes in the community via our lifelong learning.

Mr Learmont: To build on Siān's comment about content, there are a number of collaborative initiatives across Wales through WHELF (Welsh Higher Education Libraries Forum) and there are a number of initiatives in that action plan around digitalising content, for example, Welsh Journals Online. Digitising journals is a two-year JISC funded project. More recently, there is a Welsh ballads project led by Cardiff University, bringing together several collections and digitising them as well. There are examples of digitising materials and making them available more widely, and the National Library of Wales has led on these initiatives as well.

Q379 Alun Michael: I wanted to pick up on your answer to the Chairman, Siān, particularly about universities needing to do more to communicate the outcomes of research, presumably what is valuable to people and practicable to people. I thought it was quite a refreshing point to make so strongly because by and large universities have been quite good at communicating cleverness, if you like, rather than communicating what is really useful to people. What is different about the way you are doing that as a university in Bangor now compared to the past?

Professor Hope: Compared to the past we are trying to identify real impact that can be understood by anybody who does not have to be an expert in the field. As you quite rightly say, universities traditionally only communicated through scholarly journals and scholarly papers which are a very small section. We are encouraged to do this now through the Research Council, but we are being very proactive and have set up support systems in the university and some examples of best practice. We hope that by becoming used to doing it the academics themselves will understand how, when they write the final report of a piece of work, it is not just for a small narrow audience; it is to be read by other people who could follow up something of interest or of real import which they might not have understood during a lifetime of research of the project.

Q380 Alun Michael: In taking that forward, the internet and internet-related activities become very important, do they not, firstly as the means of communicating to a wider audience rather than those who just read publications, and secondly in terms of communicating the information and research about utilisation of the internet? Is that a focus?

Professor Hope: You will have seen this morning about communicating through pictures, using our visualisation facilities, that we are trying to get the academics to think about immediately as a way of showing the impact or potential of their research.

Q381 Alun Michael: Indeed, the questions were very much about, "this is very clever how can you use it; how can you drive real engagement and increased knowledge?"

Professor Hope: One specific thing we are doing that is very practical is that we are helping Swansea University on a digital economy Wales development where we look at what people want and how we can engage digitally with the outcomes of this research, and can we use the internet to allow the digital economy to grow as a result of sharing this information? That is one very particular thing. I know David has another one.

Mr Learmont: It is around the use of digital repositories, which are open to anyone to be able to access research materials through that medium. I think that Wales is the first nation to be able to say that all their HEIs have a digital repository available, so it is significant.

Q382 Mr Martyn Jones: The Open University is still the only major provider of online distance learning in the UK. Why do you think that is?

Professor Hope: Two reasons. One is that their was their mission when they started out, and it is very important to understand who you are as an organisation and what you do. We know who we are in Bangor and we know what we do. We are a research-led organisation that has three core research strengths, and we have international students and part-time students. We deliver locally and globally, but primarily on a face‑to‑face basis. However, the world is changing and never staying still, and we have had some distance courses. It is very costly and you need the academics to understand how to construct a course to be delivered in a distance way. It is not a matter about providing the infrastructure; you need to have academics who understand - pedagogy I think is the official term for it - how the learning happens, and how you need to have a different approach to the material, and how students interact. You have to think about the fact that it is delivered in a different way. We have done some e-masters courses in agricultural/forestry, and our study is renowned across the world, and we have delivered distance learning materials and courses all over the world because we have particular research strengths that is internationally excellent in that area. We have had champions, academics, who wanted to do it, and who learnt how to do it and have done that. It is costly. The second example is our business school: it is currently the best in the UK and came out top in the RAE, out of Bangor University, and in banking and finance it is very opportune right now - the banking and finance sector needs some access to their resources. This is not necessarily to individuals who are perhaps widening participation coming in to HE, but people who need to take on their skills level at a much more senior level within those organisations, and know what research is going on and what new risk techniques need to be applied potentially; so it is a different type of distance learning approach.

Q383 Mr Martyn Jones: It is horses for courses.

Professor Hope: Absolutely.

Q384 Alun Michael: You quite rightly said a few moments ago that it is not just about access in terms of the hardware; there are a variety of other obstacles as well. Can we look at the question of access to basic IT hardware for the moment. Is that an issue for people wishing to undertake higher education courses? I am just thinking for instance that if you go back 20 years the requirement was access to pen and paper - perhaps a little longer than that - whereas now it is almost taken for granted that people will have a fairly high level of access to equipment and services.

Mr Learmont: We found that the majority of students arrive with their own hardware, and once they are onsite they can either use that hardware to connect on campus via wireless hot-spots etc. We believe that there may be part-time students who may not have such privileged access, and particularly students working on vocational courses, so there would be teaching on site, or nursing courses. That may be an issue for them. Some of the courses albeit funded internally, do provide hardware, laptops, for students. It is not a huge problem.

Q385 Alun Michael: In a sense your bright 19-year old coming in to the university on a full-time course probably is not going to run into too many problems; it is the very people you have alluded to - mature students, second-chance students, students perhaps who come in through some form of foundation course. They are more likely to experience those obstacles. If you are not careful, digital exclusion compounds social exclusion more generally, does it not, in education?

Professor Hope: I think it does. It is often those people who do not stay on campus, who have other reasons to be working and perhaps in Blaenau Ffestinniog, in (inaudible) or out in Holyhead for example, and whatever infrastructure we provide it is very difficult to provide the support for those very small groups of students. I think 30% of our student population are mature and part-time or combinations of both of those. That has recently dropped to 20% and figures are dropping, so maybe there is an issue in believing that it is something for them.

Q386 Alun Michael: Are the figures dropping because perhaps people are not even reaching the threshold? Is it good news or bad news that those numbers are dropping

Professor Hope: It is very difficult for us to know the reasons why, because you never know why people are not coming to somewhere. One of the suspicions is the fees side of things and the costs of education. The other suspicion is that there are multiple opportunities for learners to learn these days and potentially some people could have been coming to us, and then walk into FE, and maybe that is a better learning route for them to come through - and the advent of foundation degrees. It may be that it is good news.

Q387 Alun Michael: In a sense it depends on your feel for what is going on rather than on hard research.

Professor Hope: Absolutely.

Q388 Alun Michael: Do you have any data about the number of people who require assistance in order to be able to adequately keep up with taking on a higher education course?

Professor Hope: We do have a hardship approach, run by our student services. I do not think we have interrogated the information recently but I am sure we have got the data to find the answer to the question. We can go back and see if we can do that.

Q389 Alun Michael: That would be helpful.

Mr Learmont: The other side that is the hardware but it is also access through broadband and broadband coverage as well. We know that that is an issue, not for students if they are staying within halls of residence, c they will get guaranteed access through our residential network; but we are increasingly finding that a lot of students are placing themselves at home because that is a cheaper option, and that if they are based further away from campus then there are the issues that we have already covered about access rurally.

Q390 Alun Michael: Which specific activities can the lack of adequate broadband access from home - the situation you have just described - and mobile coverage present problems for students in your experience?

Mr Learmont: We run a virtual learning environment which is based around the blackboard, so having low speeds of access is not necessarily important for that; however, increasingly, if we are using different forms of media, be it video content, podcasts, etc - there is some work at the moment happening at the university about assessment and feedback, so using podcasts or video-casting to provide that kind of feedback. If that develops any further, then clearly broadband access and band width will become an issue. As technologies develop, so the boundaries are pushed as to the speeds available.

Q391 Alun Michael: Given that multimedia learning techniques are becoming ever more prevalent, is the proposed target of 2 mega bit per second universal broadband service by 2012 likely to be adequate to meet the needs of students in Bangor University and other higher education institutions in Wales?

Mr Learmont: The key there is the "by 2012". I think it is happening now, and it would be adequate. As technologies develop, perhaps it is not ambitious enough.

Professor Hope: The alternative is that we also do not know what other solutions might be out there to this. We do not quite know how digital TV will transform what we do, for example. There are an awful lot of unknowns because digital television provides a huge opportunity potentially to do something quite different, but it would need someone to take advantage of that.

Q392 Alun Michael: It was interesting the point that ASDL was starting to be seen as a necessity rather than a luxury and the extent to which they required ambitious and imaginative solutions to get the extra mile. You have highlighted the problem of students living at home who experience greater difficulties than if they are living in the wi-fi enabled environment of Bangor itself. Have you done any work on techniques for students to try to lessen that difficulty? I am thinking of things like making sure they download stuff while they are on campus in order to be able to access it at home - use of library facilities and so on - is that something you looked at?

Professor Hope: We do inductions, at the start of every semester, at every school and every college in the university. There are sessions about how best to maximise your working times. Whether everyone attends is another matter, because we only deliver it face‑to‑face.

Q393 Alun Michael: You do not have a written or online guide that people can refer back to during the subsequent three years?

Professor Hope: This is why I wish Julie was here, who could not unfortunately be here today. I think there is an online version in our IT services department.

Mr David Jones: What assessment have you made of the levels of media literacy amongst the students? I am assuming that media literacy is becoming increasingly important.

Alun Michael: You could ask the same question about spelling and things like that.

Q394 Mr David Jones: That would be pertinent too!

Professor Hope: We looked at how they use those skills, because it is all very well to be able to use the media and find what they want to find - so I would say this, wouldn't I - we have to spend more and more time not on the media literacy skills themselves, but what to do with that knowledge and how to plug it together, and where all these different sources come from and how to use the knowledge gained from the differing media. That was not your question, I know!

Q395 Mr David Jones: I inferred from your answer that there were basic levels of media literacy amongst most of your students; in fact these days I would be surprised if there were not.

Professor Hope: For a lot of our science and technology students we know that they have all the skills needed, because they are needed for every single module they take these days, and the searching for information is key. We have other students who are perhaps not so media literate, and then we have common modules that can be taken by any student in the whole university. It is very much done on a self-assessment basis if the students wish to take advantage of these modules on media literacy.

Q396 Mr David Jones: That is something that would be for the individual student to decide whether he or she wanted to take it up.

Professor Hope: Yes.

Q397 Alun Michael: Is it not likely that those who do not take it up are those who probably need it most?

Professor Hope: That is where I was coming to. We had a recent QAA visit and we came out as "excellent", and there is a quote of our vice chancellor - if he were here he would want me to quote: "Students receive outstanding education at the threshold of available knowledge". One of the things we will be following up is to do a review that I am just completing in July, which is what we should be doing, and we are very happy to provide you with the analysis of that, because it is ongoing.

Q398 Mr David Jones: Do you think that Welsh HE institutions could be doing more to disseminate media literacy? Do you see that as part of their function?

Professor Hope: It is currently not seen as part of our function, I do not think, speaking from Bangor University's perspective. It is certainly on part of the widening participation agenda and is taken very seriously in that agenda.

Q399 Mr David Jones: I guess that in order to participate you do basic levels of media literacy at least.

Professor Hope: that is right, so it is very difficult. I would come back to the point I made that locally we are working with schools and FE and other training providers such as ... in Anglesey, and to have a joined-up approach. It is about delivery and who should do it, and where is the need and demand, and understanding what we can do to help.

Q400 Mr David Jones: I infer from your answer that you do think it is part of your function, and you are carrying that out that function at the moment.

Professor Hope: Under our widening participation agenda, yes.

Q401 Mr David Jones: We have heard evidence that the media literacy initiatives need to be better integrated with other educational and skills development programmes. Do you agree, and how do you think that could happen?

Mr Learmont: Is that with other HE providers?

Q402 Mr David Jones: Not necessarily, in terms of educational skills programmes generally do you think media literacy is sufficiently well integrated into other types of educational provision?

Professor Hope: Do we think media education is integrated well enough? Yes.

Q403 Mr David Jones: It seems to me that media literacy is part of the package these days. From the answers you have given to my questions it seems to me it is part of the package but do you think that element is sufficiently well integrated?

Professor Hope: Obviously, because we are struggling to answer it, it probably is not.

Mr David Jones: Again, that is the impression I am getting, and the impression I got from you the first time.

Q404 Chairman: It is not a facetious point, but can I turn it round and say: do you think it should be part of staff development, because academic staff do not seem to be thinking of it as a challenge or a problem?

Professor Hope: If I may say my personal view - and I am still teaching, and still being an active academic members of staff, and having taught in secondary schools as well, if I can give a view of where we are now there is a lot of focus on ICT but not much focus on media. There is a big difference. Potentially, in answer to your question, currently there is a lot of staff development in ICT. We have set up a new academic development unit in Bangor to look exactly at this issue of what should staff development be about in this 21^st century when there are so many things changing. I am sure that our academic development unit will be looking at what staff development should contain. I know that in schools again there is a lot of focus on ICT but not necessarily on the media.

Q405 Mr David Jones: I think you were here when I put a similar question to witnesses from the Open University, but it seems to me that one of the issues is that IT and media are progressing and changing so quickly that it is very difficult to say what constitutes real media literacy at any one time. Do you think that is right? It is a constantly developing process.

Professor Hope: I suspect it is constantly developing. My experience of it is that it is not linear. The rate of change is increasing, and therefore development is very difficult to keep up with. The rate of change is not a straight line when you know there will be some developments here. It is also very lumpy. Some amazing thing comes out like YouTube and I-Tunes, and all of a sudden there are huge potential opportunities to take advantage of something really innovative and new. It is not linear; it is lumpy.

Q406 Mr David Jones: That was one of the concerns earlier where the witness said that the Open University would select a particular media at the start of an individual course. If you look at a three or four-year course, a whole range of innovations could take place in that time, which could be utilised.

Professor Hope: Absolutely. It is a challenge.

Q407 Alun Michael: Can I ask you to look at the importance of ICT for the university generally? Do you have an overall strategic plan as far as IT is concerned, both in terms of utilisation by the university and in terms of improving use of IT by both students and staff?

Mr Learmont: There is an IT strategy in place. There is also a library strategy that makes reference to literacy. I have also been tasked with development a digital strategy for the university, which will start to be formulated in September this year. There is a very technological strategy there but the university is looking to develop something more over-arching.

Q408 Chairman: Can I ask you about the student profile of the university? Can you tell me how that is changed say over the last five years, in regard to the proportion of part-time, full-time, social class and geographic origin? That is a lot, and if you cannot give it to us now it would be helpful for you to send it in to us.

Professor Hope: A snapshot over the five years: the student population has increased dramatically. The proportion is approximately 25% postgraduate and 75% undergraduate. The number of international students has increased significantly and mostly that increase has come at the postgraduate level. We used to have a significant postgraduate part-time, but that does not appear to be the case any more. I can get the statistics for you. The undergraduate population can be put in two different population cohorts. The undergraduate population used to be about 30% part-time about five years ago, but it has gradually been decreasing. The mature students used to be about 30%, and that has fluctuated in different departments and subject areas. We find that a lot of the mature students are now coming to do their science and technology subjects, so there has been a change of emphasis, and therefore I suspect there are not so many of them because of that. A lot of our students who are mature used to come and do something because they were the young retired who would come and do something because they wanted to learn. I suspect we are seeing a larger number of mature students, which is anyone over 21 - that is the classification. They are coming to look perhaps for employment. I have no hard evidence, but that is my suspicion, based on the students I have taught in the computer science department who are mature students, and talking to them.

Q409 Chairman: You say it is your impression, but presumably the university has a much more -----

Professor Hope: I was giving you a flavour. That has come through from the reports we have, but I do not have the exact statistics. We can get those to you. What sort of breakdown would you like?

Q410 Chairman: I am sure it is available because the Welsh Assembly Government would require you to provide a social class agenda and ethnicity, and geography as well. That is all available, I guess. Coming from you it would be more authentic and more robust and more detailed.

Professor Hope: Yes.

Q411 Chairman: Over time.

Professor Hope: Five years?

Chairman: Whatever is available. It would be more interesting over ten years because some of us who come from a particular political party would be interested in what impact this Government has had over time.

Q412 Mr David Jones: Twelve years, Chairman!

Professor Hope: We keep the data for 15 years.

Chairman: Thank you very much. It has been a most enlightening session. Bangor has changed. I came here to play rugby in 1966 and it was a very small university then. I congratulate you and the Vice Chancellor on the success of the QAA.