UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 162-i

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

WELSH AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

john charles suite, international sports village, newport, wales

The potential benefits of the 2012 Olympics

and Paralympics for Wales

Monday 19 January 2009

MR HUW JONES, MR PHILIP CARLING, MR GARETH JOHN and MR JON MORGAN

MR ALUN FFRED JONES AM and MR ARTHUR EMYR

Evidence heard in Public Questions 1 - 58

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee

on Monday 19 January 2009

Members present

Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair

Nia Griffith

Hywel Williams

________________

Memoranda submitted by Federation of Disability Sport Wales and

Sports Council for Wales

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Mr Gareth John, Chairman, Mr Jon Morgan, Executive Director, Federation of Disability Sport Wales, Mr Philip Carling, Chairman, and Mr Huw G Jones, Chief Executive, Sports Council for Wales, gave evidence.

Q1 Chairman: Good afternoon and welcome to the Welsh Affairs Committee; a particularly warm welcome from our side of the table to the first evidence session on the inquiry we have on the potential benefits of the 2012 Olympics and Paralympics for Wales. Could I first of all place on record our thanks to Newport City Council for their warm welcome and everyone who has made our visit here a successful visit; I hope it will be a successful visit, it has been a successful visit up until now anyway. For the record, could I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves please?

Mr Jones: I am Huw Jones, Chief Executive, Sports Council for Wales.

Mr Carling: I am Philip Carling, Chairman, Sports Council for Wales.

Mr Morgan: Jon Morgan, Executive Director, Disability Sport Wales.

Mr John: Gareth John, Chairman thereof.

Q2 Chairman: Thank you very much for that. Could I begin by asking all of you, although you do not all need to answer the question, how will the benefits of the 2012 London Games be felt here in Wales?

Mr Carling: Obviously the Olympic Games is an absolutely massive festival of sport and it is our role to maximise the benefits of that. We are running programmes through until 2012 and beyond in schools, with governing bodies and through the local authorities and we believe that the boost in morale effect of the Games will significantly affect those programmes and the value of those programmes, particularly as we get nearer to the Games themselves. It is very early days yet and obviously the emotional effect of the Games will not be felt for a while but we believe that we can enhance the programmes with that. We have not been able to introduce any additional programmes because of lack of finance, but the programmes that we are running with, we believe, will be significantly boosted by the Games.

Mr Morgan: From the Paralympic perspective it is a once in a lifetime unique opportunity to promote paralympic and disability sport in our own backyard. We have already got a very well established programme within Wales in terms of a community programme which is rolled out across all of the local authorities. There are major opportunities to be yielded from having the single biggest disability sport event in London in four years time in terms of the profiling of elite athletes and the role models that they will become. It is also an opportunity, I believe, to ensure that particularly children and young people with a disability are made aware, not just through the Games but through the programmes that we deliver, of the opportunities that already exist for them to participate, not just during the cycle of the Games but throughout their entire lives in sport and healthy activity. From our perspective, Chairman, we see it as a massive opportunity and something that we are currently preparing for, both in terms of emerging athletes and participation and hope that we can take every advantage from.

Q3 Chairman: We have had some representation from various bodies in Wales about the cuts in funding. To what extent have these cuts in funding through the lottery affected sport?

Mr Jones: They have affected us quite significantly. We have lost £7.3 million for the development of the Games and I suppose with lottery reducing over recent years that is quite significant at this point in time. Having said that, if it had been 10 or 15 years ago that the UK had been successful in achieving the Games probably nobody would have batted an eyelid. Back in 1997/98, just over ten years ago, we had nearly £18 million per annum coming into the sport lottery in Wales; that now stands at something like £7 million per annum, so when you have a situation where we have not only committed funds forward but we have also had a reducing income as well, moving forward it is actually quite significant. Much of that it is important to actually say is not the fault of the establishment of the Olympic and the Paralympic Games; the money that has actually been taken out of the sport lottery over the years has been taken out as a result of various government policies: for example the establishment of the New Opportunities Fund first of all, then UK Sport becoming a lottery distributor and then the establishment of the Olympic lottery distributor. So there have been various reasons why there has been a reduction in funding coming through to the sport lottery in Wales so now with that £7.3 million being withdrawn at this point in time it is significant. If it had taken place, as I said, ten years ago, everybody would have said fine, not a problem at all.

Mr Carling: I should say there has been a balancing feature though in that the Welsh Assembly Government have invested significantly more exchequer funding in the budget for the next three years. This does not compensate for it but actually it makes life a little bit easier in the light of that reduction in lottery funding. These are programmes that would have been running anyway, the programmes I talked about, but that has actually helped with resourcing them.

Mr Jones: If we have a look for example, Chairman, at 2002/03 our exchequer funding at that time was £8.7 million. We are now looking at an exchequer budget of something like £26 million, so actually as our lottery funding has gone down our exchequer funding, because of the priorities that the Assembly Government has given to sport and physical activity, has grown quite significantly.

Mr Morgan: We currently receive approximately £600,000 a year from the lottery via our principal funding partners, the Sports Council for Wales. That funding is used to roll out the community programme that we have across Wales, the employment of 22 development officers on a part-time basis who essentially deliver the community element of our strategic framework for disability sport. The impact of that programme is that in 2002 we had a benchmark of about 1200 opportunities predominantly for disabled children and young people per year. That figure had increased now to 320,000 opportunities per year for disabled children and young people. At the moment we have not been affected by the reduction that Huw spoke of, but obviously anything that could affect us would have a major impact in terms of our community programme at the moment as it is funded.

Q4 Hywel Williams: Could I just pock up a point that Mr Jones made. You said that there has been a replacement of some of the monies by the Assembly spending money, but that comes out of their block grants does it?

Mr Jones: That does, yes.

Q5 Hywel Williams: If it is spent on sport it is not spent elsewhere.

Mr Jones: That is right.

Q6 Chairman: Can I move on now then. Perhaps disappointed is not the right word but were you expecting more Olympic and Paralympic events to be located in Wales?

Mr Jones: There is always a desire, Chairman, for more events to come to Wales but you can look at this in two ways. In reality LOCOG have always been very clear that they wanted to locate the vast majority of those events around London; they have been very clear about that. Nonetheless everybody wants to see more events, we want to see initiatives such as the mountain biking come to Wales - the First Minister is on the record about wanting to see that coming to Wales. They have always been very clear that if they can do it in and around London then that is what they would always want to do. Having said that, on the other hand you have only got to have a look at the location of some of the events that took place in Beijing and many other Olympics beforehand; in Beijing the equestrian took place in Hong Kong which was 1200 miles away - I suppose it would be the equivalent of us holding an event in Turkey or somewhere like that. South Wales and North Wales are actually not that far away at the end of the day in global terms.

Mr Carling: It is regrettable, Chairman, but we cannot say we are disappointed because the bid was completely open and we were aware of the bid and where all the events were going to be staged. An opportunity was missed originally to make the Games more important in Wales.

Q7 Chairman: I should declare an interest; my constituency was disappointed not to have some of the mountain biking in the Afan Valley; I guess that is possibly the most controversial decision, but as you have now explained those were decisions taken as part of the original bid I take it.

Mr Carling: The mountain biking possibility has come about because of doubts over the original site; there are question marks against the site in Essex and so as a result of that the First Minister in particular has been putting a bit of pressure on.

Q8 Chairman: You need a bit of imagination to find some mountains in Essex.

Mr Carling: In fairness that is as a result of problems that may arise or may have arisen.

Q9 Chairman: But those have been resolved now, I guess.

Mr Carling: We think they have; we are checking.

Q10 Chairman: We would like for them not to be resolved perhaps.

Mr Carling: Yes, I suppose purely selfishly that would be right.

Q11 Hywel Williams: I am just thinking of the way the Olympics have been promoted for those of us who live part of our time in London and looking at the newspapers down there it has been very much promoted on the legacy issue, that the lower Lea Valley is going to be redeveloped and there will be a huge legacy for London. Getting an event or a sport to come to Wales would have direct benefits for promoting participation and for spectators and all that sort of stuff that comes along with having an event here, but are there other legacy issues that would come up, say if we did have mountain biking here. Would the butter be spread a bit further to the west, for example, to the Chairman's constituency?

Mr Carling: A major part of the success of the main bid was based on the legacy promise. I am not absolutely sure that holding an event here would actually enhance that but we would like to see much more investment in legacy across our programmes so that our programmes are enhanced. Our programmes will run through to 2012 and beyond; that is a key point as well, life does not stop in 2012. Small levels of support even would have enhanced our programmes or could still enhance our programmes. I am not sure that one-off events will create a legacy but certainly help and support for our programmes would.

Q12 Hywel Williams: That is what I wanted to establish really, that there are other opportunities apart from just having the events here.

Mr Jones: Absolutely. There are two types of legacy really: the first is the legacy as a result of the facilities that will host the Games and that is obviously a matter for LOCOG and the secretary of state in London. Our challenge, and we have set it out in paragraph 5 of our memorandum to you, is that we must not divert energy and resources as a result of 2012. Our priorities do not change because of 2012, 2012 creates additional opportunities for promoting our existing initiatives and that is the way that we look at it. It is absolutely fundamental for the development of sport that we have an infrastructure there. It is not about running around trying to develop one-off events here and there, it is important that we have that structure and system in place so that not only can people participate in 2012 but in 2013, 2014 and 2015 as cohorts of young people and adults go through the system.

Mr Morgan: We share that view and we are very keen to ensure that Paralympics GB and LOCOG are very much aware of the national strategies across the four home countries in terms of what we are trying to develop within a disability sport framework which historically has not always been joined up in terms of pathways and other activities, so we see this as an opportunity to bring added value through the Games to further deliver our strategies, not to actually create something via 2012 which does not fit. The other legacy which is worthy of mention in paralympic terms is the social legacy. The way that the paralympic dimension of these Games can have an impact on society and their perception of disability, the way that we continue to evolve and take account of the social model of disability is very, very important. That is something that certainly in terms of our action planning we are trying to take forward with other key partners within Wales.

Q13 Hywel Williams: We heard earlier on this afternoon that the Australian team were here very quickly and understand that the Australian Paralympic team has decided to base itself in Wales. Can you just tell us what the potential benefits are of hosting the team for disability sports in Wales and are other Paralympic or Olympic teams seeking to set up training camps in Wales?

Mr Jones: We have been working very closely with the Welsh Assembly Government on this particular issue and we have seconded one of our senior colleagues to work in Visit Wales directly to try and bring together the expertise that we have in sport and sporting excellence with the expertise that they have in terms of marketing throughout the world, so we actually have a very good Team Wales approach to the way in which we are actually rolling this out. In many ways we need to be careful that we do not just try and comb the world for teams just to come for 2012, the approach that we are adopting is to say there are many teams throughout the world that actually want to potentially base themselves somewhere in Europe because many of the competitions throughout the world invariably take place in Europe, whether we are talking about the Olympic Games, the Commonwealth Games, future World Cup tournaments or whatever. Actually what we want is a long term legacy from this, not just a one-off so that somebody comes here for three or four weeks. That is the first approach and that has been the massive advantage of the approach of the Australian Paralympic Committee. They see themselves as using Wales as a base, not just for the Olympic Games but potentially for the Commonwealth Games, if things go well, and future World Cups that they are holding in Manchester. That is the approach that we are actually taking on this and in that way there is not just an economic benefit immediately, but we also see that there are relationship benefits as well, how we can actually learn from them. The Australians are very, very advanced in the way that they approach disability sport, their education programmes et cetera, and we can learn from them. The same is true of many other countries and what we want is a relationship with somebody so that there are not just economic benefits but there are those benefits as well that we can actually learn from them in terms of the long term development of sport, whether it is able-bodied sport or paralympic sport.

Mr Morgan: The Australian Paralympic Team was one of the countries that we would have wanted to target to bring to Wales. In reality there are probably very few Paralympic nations who actually go out to look to have holding camps or preparation camps in the four-year lead-in and even for Australia this will be the first time that they have ever put together an overseas preparation and holding camp strategy. As Huw said, from our disability agenda perspective we are already beginning to see the reward of cross-cultural partnership with Australia. We are beginning to share educational programmes with the Australian Sports Commission - we recently had a colleague from that particular disability sports unit come over to Wales, we are working on a programme of education for our governing bodies on how to be more inclusive within disability sport; they have been working on that programme for some time and they are sharing with us. We on the other hand have been delivering within the community participation opportunities; Australia are now looking to get more into the field of delivering direct participation opportunities, so there are ways that we can exchange information. We are also looking to work with the Australian Paralympic team with regard to their schools programme and there is potential for us to engage our schools and have some cross-cultural links there. In terms of elite performance, as Huw said the Australians view Wales as a country that they want to work with and, ironically, they do not see us necessarily as a threat in performance terms. So we are already beginning to talk about some of our coaching programmes in terms of possibly in the future coaches going across to Australia and vice versa to learn from the different systems, because the one thing that is true of disability sport is actually the network worldwide is not as advanced as the Olympic network, so these partnerships actually provide the countries with great opportunity but actually it stimulates the performance levels of paralympic sport in the round as well. We see huge benefits to working with Australia in terms of the forthcoming Games.

Q14 Hywel Williams: Are there any other teams thinking of basing themselves here?

Mr Morgan: We have some advanced discussions going on with New Zealand; there would be a synergy for us if we could attract the oceanic group, Australia, New Zealand and the islands to come to Wales and there may be a couple of other senior countries such as possibly South Africa or possibly Canada. These are the types of nations who may consider an overseas preparation and holding camp and they would probably be our key targets. After that if we were successful in attracting a few more countries we would have to consider issues of capacity and making sure that once we have attracted countries in we can give them the right experience, and that would mean understanding how many we can bring in in order to maintain a high level experience for them.

Q15 Hywel Williams: That was going to be my next question to you really about capacity. How many teams can we support and what effect might that have on our own athletes - for example if any of the other home countries wanted to base some of their people here as well.

Mr Jones: That is actually a very important question for us. For example, the British cycling team before they went to Athens and before they went to Beijing actually based their holding camp next door here at the velodrome, so I think the last thing that we want is a situation where we have some of the British teams crowded out because facilities have actually been given to some of our competitors. One of the things that we are doing now is working very closely with the British team and saying you have first call on this, you tell us exactly what you need and when so that we can actually block those out and then we can look to so-call sell the rest of the facilities.

Q16 Chairman: The first major international event in recent times, I guess, was the Rugby World Cup, and I would imagine that the Sports Council for Wales learnt something from that. I remember there was some sense of dissatisfaction, maybe because of the way in which the Welsh Rugby Union arranged it so that the games were very dispersed and it appeared there was very little economic benefit because very few people seemed to stay in Wales. Do you have much recollection or any observations on that period?

Mr Carling: I will have to pass it to Huw because I was not here then.

Mr Jones: The benefits obviously became very focused in terms of the South Wales corridor because of the clarity that was given to the Millennium Stadium. It depends how you measure some of those benefits and what you actually want out of it at the end of the day. When you have a look at the economic benefits from events they are of two kinds. The first kind is as a result of significant numbers of competitors - for example, the London Marathon is a classic example where you have thousands of people converging on London to compete - the other type is where you have actually got spectators and they do have very different economic benefits; UK Sport have undertaken an awful lot of work to try and quantify how those impact and what the multiplier effect of those will be. We will have a very different situation when it comes to holding camps, for example, because what we want is people not just to come here for a fortnight or three weeks before the Games start, we actually want people to start coming here in 2010, 2011 and 2012 and then afterwards in terms of basing themselves here, seeing Wales as their European base. There will be a long term impact, therefore, in terms of the economic benefits.

Mr Carling: We would have had very little opportunity to influence the RIB and the Welsh Rugby Union in the staging of the Rugby World Cup, it would be outside our sphere of influence really and so we would equally not be able to learn that much from it.

Q17 Hywel Williams: Can I ask you now about the Cultural Olympiad and the opportunities for young people; to what extent is Wales participating in the UK-wide sporting and cultural programmes? Are they the UK events or are we actually tailoring Welsh events as well?

Mr Jones: That would probably be a question that can better be answered by the Minister and Arthur Emyr when they come because they have been leading it. For our part we are members of the Wales 2012 steering group and I attend those meetings with Arthur on behalf of the Council so we are very much aware of the Cultural Olympiad and the process of things there. The other day, for example, I met with Phil Cope who is leading on the Following the Flame initiative which is one of the elements of the Cultural Olympiad, looking at the recording and interviewing of not just past Olympians and champions but current Olympians, aspiring Olympians, potential Olympians, people who have been in the background - coaches, administrators and so on - and trying to get from them their feel, their reflections, their aspirations as part of the major exhibition that will be touring Wales. One of the things that we talked about was how to get that information, who to actually talk to to undertake those particular interviews and then the possible staging of the exhibition at the Welsh Institute sometime during the Olympiad.

Mr John: Indeed, Chairman, this morning a meeting was held with Mr Philip Cope and we are having some interviews with him in the not too distant future; that will be disability specific.

Q18 Chairman: Could you describe to us what Phil Cope does, or what is that role that he has?

Mr Morgan: Phil essentially is a project co-ordinator and he will be overseeing the Following the Flame project from concept through to its implementation and obviously working with a range of agencies such as the Sports Council for Wales and ourselves to ensure that they are interviewing the right individuals and getting the right stories. From a disabilities perspective I was very enthusiastic in terms of a comment that Phil made this morning where he described the project as a 50/50 project, it is 50% Olympic and it is 50% Paralympic. One of the benefits within Wales is that the work we have contributed to the steering group - we sit on the steering group as well - it is very much an inclusive approach to the way in which we are trying to manage the Games and ensure that everything we do for the Olympic side, we are equally trying to deliver it with the Paralympic message as well which is extremely important from our perspective. It is a very exciting project and in terms of telling some of the stories it is going to be a very interesting project for young and old alike.

Mr Jones: It is interesting how attitudes, in particular towards disability and paralympic sports, have changed enormously in a relatively short space of time. If you ask people like Tanni Grey Thompson, Chris Howell and John Harris, some of our past Paralympians, about their experiences, the Paralympics ten years ago was a relatively small event with a relatively low profile. It was probably Sydney that put it on the map, where they really did it give priority and probably equality with the Olympic Games. I can recall a colleague of mine who was in Sydney at the time, going down the street and there was a fellow in front of him in a wheelchair. A young lad came running over to ask him for his autograph; he was just a member of the general public - and he immediately said to him "Are you a basketball player?" He associated people in wheelchairs with being basketball players - is that not fantastic - rather than somebody who could not do anything which in the past has been the way that people tended to look at disabled athletes.

Mr Morgan: There is an interesting figure from BBC Wales in terms of its review of Paralympic sport coverage from Beijing. They indicated that 13.2 million people watched the Paralympic Games for at least a 15-minute period in terms of the coverage that they provided, and obviously from our perspective they were providing daily coverage of at least one to two hours at a very good viewing time, and they also provided interactive coverage for the first time. Obviously, we would be encouraged and hope that by the time we get to London - I understand that the contract is not let at the moment in terms of who will be televising and covering the Games - from our organisation's perspective the one major benefit of BBC of course is that it then goes out to regions and nations networks as well and I noticed a huge uptake in terms of the interest whilst we were in Beijing at the Paralympic Games; BBC Wales had a fulltime reporter at the Games covering radio, covering television, and in terms of what that did, it sent out a message to other media networks and we were inundated for local radio interviews during the course of the Games and other forms of media communication. It is very important, if we are going to optimise the potential of the Paralympic Games we have got to have a media network which is covering the Games which is going to get into people's homes and get into website development and other commitments, not just for the 2012 Games itself but the BBC cover paralympic sport every year through to the Games, through things like the Paralympic World Cup in May. It is very important to us that we can maintain the profile that we have enjoyed since Sydney and certainly increasing through to Beijing.

Q19 Nia Griffith: In your written evidence to us you mention the need for a step change in school sport if we are to realise the benefits of the 2012 Games. Can you explain to us what more you feel the Welsh Assembly Government could be doing to create this change in this area?

Mr Jones: The first thing to say about what is actually happening at the moment is the Assembly Government has been very, very supportive of this agenda in terms of the development of school sport and participation, and that is exhibited by the significant increases in funding that I mentioned earlier. Our challenge and the challenge of our governing bodies such as FDSW and others and local authorities is how to make the best use of that. For example, in recent times we have been working in nearly every single primary school in Wales - we are at 94% of primary schools now through Dagon Sport, we are rolling out 5x60 into every secondary school, we are at 98% of secondary schools, but in many ways that is just a start because what we have got in there is a part-time co-ordinator working with young people, asking them what do they want to do, not just football and rugby, but whether they want to play badminton recreationally, whether they want to do aerobics, dance, dodge ball, whatever; things that will get them physically active at the end of the day. It is going to take us a while to get that rolled out into every night of the week, lunchtimes, weekends - we want to see mass participation in its true sense, not periodic participation. That is going to take us the next few years to ensure that that rolls out, but that is what the Olympics gives us the profile to actually do, to keep on saying this is an important issue, not just in the development of sport but in terms of getting more young people physically active at the end of the day. We are working very closely with the Chief Medical Officer on the establishment of a physical activity action plan and these will be important elements within that action plan to raise the profile so that young people can understand that they must take responsibility for themselves. You cannot make people be physically active and it is about getting over to them firstly that this is fun and secondly that it is important that they take responsibility. We can give them the opportunity now which is something that I do not think we have been able to say we could do before. The challenge now is how can we best make it work, making sure that schools work consistently with people like our leisure centres, our swimming pools and our clubs. That has not always taken place in a consistent format. For example, Hartridge down the road here, making sure that whatever is going to be happening there in terms of 5x60 and extra-curricular activity there is consistency of programmes with what is happening here and at the times that young people can actually do it. Those are the sorts of challenges and that is what we mean by the national framework for junior sport, which we have actually mentioned within our memorandum to you - making sure there is consistency, synergy and co-ordination of that activity.

Mr Morgan: We face the challenge of a slightly shifting agenda. I have already mentioned that the increase in participation has gone from 1200 to 320,000 but the challenge for us now is to consider and to work with partners as to how best we can ensure that children have got inclusive opportunity. We know from colleagues at the Assembly Government that the number of children who are being statemented into mainstream education is increasing and it is likely that possibly 80% of all children with a statement will be in mainstream. Therefore, what we have to ensure is that when we are delivering the junior school programmes across Wales those people who are delivering the frontline stuff have been trained, they understand the principles of inclusion, the principles of how we can adapt some sports and some environments so that everybody is able to participate at the same time and at the same place. That is also about creating choice for disabled people as to where and when they would like to do their sport and physical activity, and that takes us into the agenda of governing bodies and working with our partners to ensure that whilst we are working with the community on inclusion plans we are also working with governing bodies in terms of how we develop their performance strands and their pathways for athletes. That is going to be quite a long term, challenging agenda and it is probably going to be underpinned by good education and training. If we are going to have one of the key sustainable legacies of 2012 inclusion is a principle that we have got to build into all of our national sport development programmes from this point forward.

Q20 Nia Griffith: Will you be planning any specific events which will include disability sports or will you be concentrating your efforts on that inclusion within schools?

Mr Morgan: Currently, because of the network of development officers and partnerships that we have got across Wales there are activities and events going on throughout Wales, pretty much every week of the year. We delivered last year something like 350 odd events at community level and we would want to maintain that level of activity and the quality accreditation if you like of that activity whilst we are then preparing this inclusion agenda, the background to which will be the provision of very good education and training materials, and a very managed approach as to how we are going to see this inclusion agenda through. The one thing that we know by working with partners such as the Australian Sports Commission is that inclusion does not happen by flicking a switch and the lights come on, it is a long term process and it is about changing perceptions, it is about changing the way that people plan and deliver and then monitor inclusively so that they see sport in the round. From a Welsh perspective we are having very encouraging dialogue with our Sports Council for Wales partners, the Assembly and governing bodies and I think it is an agenda for change that we can set out, certainly over the next four to eight year period and, hopefully, we can effect real change during that time.

Mr Jones: There are some practical challenges in terms of how we actually run inclusive events. If I give you two examples of events that you will be aware of that are inclusive to a degree, the first is the Commonwealth Games where there is a degree of disability involvement and the UK School Games as well which will be held next in Cardiff, Newport and Swansea. That has an element of inclusiveness but it is not totally inclusive in terms of all of the activities because it is simply not practical - it is a bit like the Olympics and the Paralympic Games: it would be nice theoretically to see all of that rolled into one but actually it is not practical to hold them because of the number of competitors that are likely to be involved, the number of officials, the time it takes to run events, so there are issues of practicality and not just issues of principle.

Q21 Nia Griffith: Are there any special provisions being made for less popular sports?

Mr Jones: In what way?

Q22 Nia Griffith: Are there any particular measures you are taking or any events that you are organising or anything to cater for some of the less high profile things or the lesser taken up sports?

Mr Jones: When we look at what is actually happening now in schools in particular, generally speaking I think we have to be careful about making sweeping generalisations here but the vast majority of schools in Wales cater very well for football, rugby, hockey and netball at the very highest levels. If you are good enough to get into the first 15, first seven netball team, first 11 football team, you will get a game, but actually if you are not then there is not the opportunity there for you, and if you are not interested in those particular activities then there has not been in the past those opportunities. I think that is what we are trying to do in terms of 5x60, to work with young people and say what exactly do you want and at what level do you want to engage in that. If you do not want to play an intra-school competition, just playing with your friends, that is fine; if you just want to knock a shuttle over a net and have a friendly game and just have some fun that is fine, if you just want to do aerobics, that is fine. The challenge is to actually engage with young people and not just be able to deliver for them what they want but to get them involved in the delivery as well, actually to manage and to lead their own particular sessions and to take ownership. If we are going to have a situation in the future where we have mass participation we need significantly more volunteers than we have now, and that is very, very difficult in the sort of culture that we have now where there is an expectation by many of the general public that somebody else will do something for them rather than them taking responsibility. The leadership issue and volunteering issue is a very big issue for us in terms of 5x60, giving them the skills and trying to get over to them that they have to take responsibility and be able to take that back into their community and not just in a school environment.

Q23 Nia Griffith: Do you see any sort of permanent legacy in terms of facilities coming from the 2012 Olympics and if so how might they be funded? We obviously know about the legacy in terms of attitude and enthusiasm and preparation for the future, but in any particularly concrete ways?

Mr Jones: I do not think in all honesty that we will see in Wales a legacy of facilities, for a couple of reasons. One is the finance issues that we talked about, but actually the vast majority of national and regional facilities that we need in Wales we have developed over the years - there is the development of the national pool in Swansea and three regional pools, the most recent one was opened in Llandudno recently and we have the regional pool just across the way here in Newport; there is the development of national and regional athletics facilities, the national and regional cricket facilities. So we have actually been putting those in place over the years. Our challenge over the next three or four years is to make sure that our partners, who have developed those with us, actually have the finance and the priority to ensure that they maintain those facilities. We do not want a situation whereby in two or three years time Newport is saying this velodrome that we built here is fantastic, but we have not got the money to redo the track and we are going to have to close it. That really would be a disaster for us, so those are ongoing challenges.

Mr Carling: I think that is a no really. Picking up the point that Huw made before, which you may be able to help us with, because I would like to add my impression on this, the volunteering question and the problem we have with CRB checks. It is not that we are against them at all but if a teacher teaches in Bassaleg School and then coaches on a Sunday morning in the tennis club and then coaches gymnastics on a Wednesday afternoon, he or she will need three different checks. We cannot see - I think we have made representations elsewhere - why there should not be a passport and why that should be necessary. That is actually a very big bar on volunteers or a very big obstacle to volunteers when they first come in. It is a major concern to us.

Mr Jones: There are a few things which militate against the development of volunteering at the moment. One is the CRB checks issue and arguably there is a need to actually have a look at how effective that is as a mechanism to actually protect young people. In my view it is not as effective as people believe it is. It is very seductive, it is one of those things which people have grabbed hold of because it is quite populous in many ways but actually it does not safeguard the majority of young people. You actually need significant procedures and policies about how you are actually going to operate an activity because the vast majority of paedophiles in this country have never been caught, they are not on any sort of list or whatever and it is those that are of greatest concern, not the ones that have been caught. That is one area. The second area is the issue of insurance and liability and when you are actually saying to somebody yes, we want you involved as a referee or an umpire or whatever but there is potential here that you could be sued, and all you are trying to do is give people the opportunity, a lot of people are going to say I am not going to bother, this could be a threat to my livelihood, to my family, I could be all over the newspapers, why should I even bother. There is a need to look at both of those if we are going to get that volunteering community spirit back into our communities.

Q24 Nia Griffith: Are you saying that we are suffering from significant shortages in terms of the expertise and personnel coming forward to do the training?

Mr Jones: We certainly have a very big challenge in terms of volunteering. The volunteering base generally speaking in sport but also in many other areas of life is an aging volunteering base. We are working very much now with young people to try and get that culture back in there but there will be, there is no doubt, a gap there if we are not careful. The vast majority of voluntary sports clubs in this country are run by people who are now getting into their sixties and seventies.

Mr Carling: That is a serious problem. I was at a cross-country championship in Bute Park yesterday and I would have said that the volunteers were led by a guy who is 75 and mostly contemporaries of his really. He said that it is very difficult to persuade younger people to get involved in volunteering and running things in the volunteer way that the sport depends on, because there is no question, is there Huw, that sport in Wales and indeed everywhere depends absolutely on volunteers.

Mr Morgan: Could I just add that in terms of welfare policies we believe there is a loophole at the moment because whilst children's welfare is catered for under a raft of different legislation that is coming forward, a policy on vulnerable adults within sport is not a requirement and if you take the principle through the Paralympic Games and through the increase of activity that we are currently providing for young people, a lot of these children that we have been working with - we started six years ago - are now becoming young adults. We believe that there is a need for a policy for vulnerable adults to be carried forward. We have undertaken work on it, we are ready with training materials, but we just feel that it needs to have an increased place within the welfare system. People are going to increase within our sports system and if we do move towards inclusion then obviously we need to make sure that our front line deliverers are all able to deal with this matter as well.

Q25 Hywel Williams: Can I just ask you about the marketing and the raising of the profile of the Paralympics as compared to the Olympics itself. Where does that stand - presumably it is not going to be on the same level but where does it stand and are you happy or could more be done?

Mr Morgan: I would hope that it is going to be done on the same level. The one message that we brought back from Beijing was that the Olympic Games were marketed with all the Olympic logos and insignia and the day after the Olympics finished that was taken down and the Paralympics rolled into town and the marketing was absolutely superb; it was unlike what we have seen before in Athens or even Sydney. I would hope that the aspiration of London is that whilst they are delivering an inclusive framework for the Games they are going to take account of the fact that there is an Olympic element to the Games but then there is a Paralympic element to the Games; I think it is very important that the way that they present London and other host cities - Weymouth et cetera - must be to reflect both elements of the Games because from our perspective those are the strong messages that we want to take away. Obviously in the lead-up to the Games it is interesting that part of the Singapore presentation was based around this notion of delivering a very inclusive Games; there have been challenges from Paralympics GB to LOCOG to ensure that their early messages were recognised in both the Olympic and Paralympic movements. That is moving forward but what we need to ensure is that that message is endemic throughout the whole of the London 2012 organisation and all representatives and staff carry forward that message. Sometimes it might stay at the top end and does not always materialise further down inside the organisation, but from our perspective we would like to see 50/50.

Q26 Hywel Williams: You talked earlier on about inclusion as one of the legacies, hopefully; how will that be maintained after the Games?

Mr Morgan: The legacy from the Paralympic side of the Games is what we do in the next four years. We have created an environment in Wales where we now have a demand by children and young people to take part in sport and physical activity; what we now need to do is to expand the range of opportunities that are going to be available to those children, and the only way we are going to do that as I say is by working with partners to actually help them to be ready to deliver programmes that are inclusive so that really by the time the last day of the Games comes for the Paralympics, when we have got a groundswell of enthusiasm from the next generation coming through, we are actually ready to promote the opportunities that are ready to go, that we have got coaches and volunteers who understand the principles of inclusion and that those opportunities are there, because if we are not ready then we will miss that Wimbledon fortnight opportunity that we see every year in our parks. We have to be ready but I think the legacy is about the next four years. If we do nothing now then obviously we can expect nothing in 2013; if we get it right now we have a great chance of moving it forward and in Wales we have already got a great base in terms of the disability sport products that we already deliver.

Q27 Chairman: Could you describe to us how UK Sport, the Sports Council for Wales and also your organisations are working effectively to ensure that we have the very best possible representation of Welsh athletes, Olympians and Paralympians?

Mr Carling: At the end of the day for us in Wales the challenge is to deliver athletes to the top of their own Elite Cymru pyramid and deliver as many athletes as we can into the world class performance programme run by UK Sport. There were some concerns three or four years ago about the edges and people dropping into a hole but largely the system is working quite well. Obviously, our objective is to deliver high class performers to the world class performance programme. You can say something about the detail of that.

Mr Jones: Chairman, anybody who has the potential to not only get a medal in London but is actually going to be in the team is already in the system at the moment, so the challenges for UK Sport and the GB governing bodies is how do they ensure the best possible support for those individuals. We have tried to describe in our memorandum how that is actually done in terms of getting the best coaches, the best competition opportunities, the best sports science and sports medicine support. Our challenge is very much looking forward and beyond 2012 to 2014, Glasgow, the Commonwealth Games in 2016 and the following Olympic and Paralympic Games and to make sure that we have got people coming through the system that have the best possible opportunities and the best possible support. A lot of what we are actually doing is we are trying to really locate those programmes and policies within our communities. For far too long people have looked at these things with a centralised approach, or that government can do something, or somebody in Cardiff can do something or whatever. Things happen within communities; people come up through communities, they need their best possible opportunities, hence the establishment of things like the North Wales Regional Institute of Sport: how can we make sure that individuals who live in North Wales, who are talented, have the best possible opportunities of success. Let us talk to them, let us find out their needs, let us give them that support that they need so that they do not have to rely on coming down to Cardiff or going to Loughborough or anywhere else. Those are the sorts of decentralised approaches that we are adopting at the moment. Clearly when you get an individual who then comes through the system who is very talented and has got potential, invariably there is going to have to be some sort of movement to Swansea, to the national pool, to train more regularly with national coaches there who have got the GB national disability squad based there, or to Loughborough where swimming is based. On occasion some people may even move abroad to get the best possible support that they actually need because of a specific type of coach. Nicole Cook, for example, competes and trains out in Italy because that is where the strength in terms of cycling competition is on a day to day and week to week basis - she is based in Switzerland now. That is the approach that we adopt, very much a decentralised approach, trying to support young people but making that competitor-centred so that we can give them the best possible support and then pass them on.

Mr Carling: One of the ways in which we are integrated better is that we provide sports science, sports medicine, physiotherapy and psychology for world class performance athletes in Wales whether they be Welsh or from the other home countries via an agreement with UK Sport. If English athletes or Scottish athletes are training at the velodrome they can get sports science and all of that. That is something we could develop more and be much better integrated. The relationship in fact with UK Sport and the world performance programme is better than it has ever been and improving.

Mr Morgan: For Paralympic athletes, for those athletes who are in the medal zone as Huw described, they receive the same world class support system as their Olympic counterparts and our role there is to ensure that those athletes who are based back home in Wales are getting all of the services that they require within that world class support framework. It has not always been the case in Paralympic terms that that has happened, not from the perspective of Wales providing services but sometimes from the perspective of some of the UK organisations perhaps, not having had the wherewithal in Paralympic terms to provide an even-handed service across the whole of the UK. Our intervention role is very important there to make sure that that happens effectively for the senior athletes. The real challenge for disability sport and something that we are working with Paralympics GB and the other home countries on is how do we ensure that we have got a feeder system of emerging athletes that are coming through the system and breaking up into UK governing body levels of activity. Our response in Wales has been to develop what we call the academy system; this is a pan-disability academy system so even though today we are talking very much about Paralympic athletes it also covers athletes who may be deaf or hard of hearing or possibly have an intellectual disability who are currently outside the Paralympic scheme. The academy is critical because it provides us with an opportunity to tailor services around emerging athletes and really to give them the boost that they require at the right stage of their development through sports science and sports medicine, through the right levels of coaching and through access to facilities such as the velodrome so that we can accelerate their potential up into London and up into 2016. The academy seems to be progressing well to date; we had nine of the fifteen new Paralympians from Wales who are part of Team GB; they came through the academy system at a time when it was only a few years old so we would hope that we would by 2012 have a greater surge of athletes who are breaking up into UK level and obviously by 2016 we will have a secondary level of athletes who are coming to the fore at that time. It is really trying to ensure that as a home country with our system we connect with the lower end of the UK system, and in disability terms that has sometimes been a weakness in the system; the top end has not always met with the bottom end of the pyramid and that is the key challenge for us as we move forward.

Mr Jones: It is probably worth mentioning that the structure that we have of disability sport in Wales is easily the most advanced in the UK and it is probably the most advanced in the world. We can be very proud of what FDSW has achieved over the last six or seven years.

Q28 Chairman: You mentioned the North Wales Regional Sports Institute; have all of the regional sports institutes in Wales and Elite Cymru received additional funding in order to prepare for the 2012 Games?

Mr Jones: They have not yet but we are discussing with UK Sport a financial package; that has not yet been confirmed but the figures that we have been discussing with them we are very satisfied with because at the moment we are providing that out of our own resources, and as it is very much their responsibility in terms of doing that I think they have accepted that as from 1 April they will be paying for those talented individuals who are based in Wales whether they are Welsh or whether, as Phil mentioned a few minutes ago, they be Scottish, Irish or English.

Q29 Chairman: You may well have answered this last question and it is about the Welsh Paralympians but it is well worth us hearing the answer again as I am sure you would wish to showcase it, particularly in the light of the observations you made, Mr Jones. The Welsh Paralympians certainly have performed well beyond what one would have expected according to the size of the Welsh population; would this be as a result of the structures that are already in place? You have already said that but here is an opportunity for you to say it again, I suppose, and for you to describe more fully in what way Wales is ahead of everywhere else, but also what else needs to be done in order to ensure that not only do those Welsh Paralympians do well in 2012 but also beyond that.

Mr John: I suppose we are lucky at the moment in that we have a number of athletes, we have facilities and we also have coaches who all come together at one particular time. One has to try to ensure that that continues and I would hope that as a consequence of 2012 funding will not be restricted in the future and we can continue to build on that. There is the danger if we are not very careful - and Huw said this earlier on - that if funding is restricted facilities will begin to fall apart and we could have a situation, again as Huw mentioned, where the volunteer base diminishes. If that does occur then the good work which has been done in the past will be negated.

Mr Carling: I think maybe there has been a measure of luck, but I can only endorse what Huw said, it has been a fantastic programme. For me the value of Paralympic or disabled sport in Wales is a combination of elite success and opportunities at community level which is stronger in Wales than anywhere else. I sometimes worry that the British PPA are creating Olympic athletes off a plane and it does not have much foundation in the community; here it has a very strong foundation in the community and that will continue. It would be a very strong priority for us and it would be very unlikely that funding of Disability Sport Wales would actually suffer as a result of any lottery downturn; it is a very big priority for Wales and they have done the most amazing job. It is easy to accept that now and to look at the Paralympics in Beijing but there is the famous story of the Welsh team going to the Commonwealth Games with Tanni and one other disabled athlete sharing the same vest - that is not so long ago.

Q30 Chairman: Who was that?

Mr John: Chris Hallam.

Mr Carling: Things have come so far and it is that base in the community and that strong community development that makes me confident that we will not run out of athletes.

Mr Morgan: The one thing that we have tried to do, Chairman, is almost take the word disability out of what we have done. What we have tried to build since 2002 is a sports development model and we have taken the principles of we want to increase participation and to do that we need to increase the coaching staff, we need to increase the volunteer base, we need to have good clubs where people can participate regularly and we need to have appropriate competition. Once we went through that phase, building the broad end of the pyramid if you will, it was an easier job to then begin to consider how do we have a talent identification system through the guise of the academy, through which we can nurture and develop athletes with potential and really try to be a wee bit aggressive in the high performance area to work with UK partners to ensure that our athletes are recognised and they have got every opportunity to get to the very highest levels they can. Obviously, by saying we take the word disability out, everything we do has to take account of disability but the way we view it is that we are running sports with additional requirements and as long as we understand the additional requirements that we need and we understand the aspirations of the individuals that we are working with, then hopefully that adoption of a simple sports development model with really good people, which is the cry, which is driving it, hopefully that will stand us in good stead for years to come.

Mr Carling: The irony too is that ultimately, if they are successful, and I am sure they will be, they will work themselves out of a job because ultimately the swimmers will take on the swimming as part of Welsh swimming and only in the absolute disability sports will this body exist. That is the longer term objective - it is a long way away but that integrated policy is everybody's aim.

Q31 Chairman: It seems to me that it chimes very well with the recent observations by Trevor Phillips, the head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, where he was talking about racism; he was saying it is an equalities issue that we should not perhaps be speaking now about racism but about equality, and you are saying that about disability. It is a sea change, it is a culture change, which is already happening; we need to ensure that it is embedded strongly, it is sustainable at all levels, it is not just about the government at the UK level it is at the Welsh Assembly level, local government, voluntary organisations and so on all embracing the approach that you enshrined in your strategy.

Mr Jones: You asked, Chairman, why have we been successful and I think the answer is because it has been a priority; that is the fundamental reason. If you make something a priority you can achieve success. Invariably people who do not prioritise things will not achieve success in what they actually want and that is quite fundamental. There has been a commitment to that and I think as a council we fundamentally believe in sport for all. That term is not used as often as it used to be in the 1970s and in many ways that is a bit of a pity but we are very committed to that, and on the disability agenda because we have given it a priority both in what we do in communities, through the establishment of sports development officers in every single local authority, through the work that FDSW has done in terms of establishing the academy scheme, supporting talented individuals, it is a priority. What we have got to make sure is that as others see it as a priority they do not catch up with us.

Q32 Chairman: In creating those kinds of priorities I am sure you would agree with me that you have role models and you have iconic figures like Dame Tanni Grey Thompson who then inspires others, does she not?

Mr Jones: We use people like Tanni - her name is used quite often - but when you actually think about it we have Tanni Grey Thompson and David Roberts who are the two most successful Paralympic athletes in the world for all time, and they are Welsh. Sometimes people do not actually realise that; what a phenomenal achievement that is, to have the two most iconic Paralympians in the world ever; we have them and they are Welsh. We should be enormously proud of that.

Chairman: On that very positive note I would like to thank you all for your evidence this afternoon and also for the written evidence that you submitted earlier. If you feel that there are other points that we have not covered we would be very pleased to hear from you in the very near future. Thank you very much.

Memorandum submitted by Welsh Assembly Government

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Mr Alun Ffred Jones, Assembly Member, Minister for Heritage, and Mr Arthur Emyr, Wales Nations and Regions Co-ordinator, Welsh Assembly Government, gave evidence.

Q33 Chairman: Welcome to the Welsh Affairs Committee, Minister. Could you introduce yourself and your colleague for the record, please?

Mr Jones: Alun Ffred Jones, Heritage Minister, Welsh Assembly Government; Arthur Emyr who leads for the Welsh Assembly Government on the Olympics and related matters and also is head of the Major Events Unit.

Q34 Chairman: Thank you. Could I begin by asking you how will the benefits of the 2012 London Games be felt in Wales?

Mr Jones: That is a very broad question but certainly it will be felt in a number of different areas. Obviously, the fact that it one of the biggest sporting occasions in the world if not the biggest event in the world will certainly have its effect and will enthuse, I would imagine, young people and older people as well in terms of sporting interest and interest in different sports. One of the interesting things about the Olympics of course is that it gives a worldwide platform to what are often called minority sports which do not get a great deal of media coverage except in the Olympics and perhaps one or two other sporting events, so obviously it will have that effect. There are obviously opportunities for business because it is such a massive event. I was talking to Arthur this morning and he was saying that there will be up to 75,000 individual contracts to be placed by the Olympic Authority and the London Organising Committee as well. We know that certain companies have already had a certain amount of work though this process and there is much more to come of course. Also in terms of education there are opportunities here which are mentioned in our presentation in terms again of not only the sporting interest but also in terms of international contacts throughout the world, and perhaps we will have an opportunity to elaborate on those later on. Obviously then there is the Cultural Olympiad which again we have specified in the evidence and, again, we can elaborate on that in terms of the events that have already been organised and some of the wider implications of that. Then there is tourism of course as well which hopefully - although that is conjecture - will benefit. There is a downside of course in terms of the loss of the lottery funding which has been estimated at £70 million, but in terms of the general loss to the sector it could be as high as £100 million because the initial lottery funding often brings in other cash as well and many of these projects simply will not be there. Therefore, there will be that subsequent or consequential loss, so we have to balance all this with that serious concern of ours.

Q35 Chairman: Could you elaborate a little about that loss? How are you compensating for it? It is difficult to measure at the moment, I suppose, in terms of the long term impact.

Mr Jones: It is felt across the arts and sports as well and also in other areas because the biggest loss is from the Big Lottery Fund which means there are fewer projects going ahead, especially capital projects, and this impacts on the ability of local clubs to improve their infrastructure mainly. That is obviously a serious blow and, as I said, because of the loss of the lottery funding it is very often impossible to proceed with certain projects. That is the obvious impact of the loss of revenue from the lottery.

Q36 Chairman: Could you describe to us the way in which you as the Welsh Assembly Government are working with the UK Government to maximise the benefits for Wales?

Mr Jones: Probably Arthur is in a better position than I am to answer that question because he is closely involved, but there are a number of points of contact and we are part of the UK-wide organisations which are there precisely in order to make sure that different parts of the UK may benefit in the long term. I should have mentioned when I mentioned the loss of lottery funding that the one bone of contention which the Welsh Assembly Government has with the funding of course is the fact that a great deal of the spend on the London Olympics is on regeneration. The London Olympics is very often justified, as far as I can see, in Parliament itself in terms of the regeneration of parts of the East End of London. If that is regeneration money then we believe and the Government in Wales believes that there should be a balance consequential to that. After all, there is need for regeneration all over the UK and I would argue especially in many, many parts of Wales. We have made that point to the Treasury of course but we have not succeeded in persuading them to part with the dosh unfortunately.

Q37 Hywel Williams: Can I invite you to comment on the fact that the Olympics is seen as being a UK-wide significant project and therefore does not attract the Barnett consequential whereas I understand the Ryder Cup is being seen as a Wales project and therefore is treated differently.

Mr Jones: These are the London Olympics and I do not think we should apologise for that. It is firmly seen as that and the Olympic Committee itself has made it perfectly clear that it wants to see as many activities close to London as possible. Of course, we had the unfortunate example, in my view, of the mountain biking events not coming to Wales or anywhere else although there are world class facilities here.

Q38 Chairman: World class mountains as well, unlike in Essex.

Mr Jones: World class mountains, you are quite right, but hills are being built elsewhere in order to accommodate it. That is in accordance with the view of the Olympic Committee and that has suffered that, but also if you look at the projected returns in terms of tourism again the projected figures talk about 70% of the advantage accruing to London itself, the other 30% accruing to the rest of the UK. That is not insignificant, but those are the terms. I am not sure that you can compare them, but certainly the Ryder Cup will bring benefits to Wales but will also bring benefits to a wider area as well.

Q39 Hywel Williams: You did say earlier on in your evidence that it is rather difficult to account for benefits that might be coming to business in Wales in terms of the placing of contracts. Are you actually doing anything to try to positively count those benefits for Wales so that we can see what positive evidence there is?

Mr Jones: Again I will ask Arthur to elaborate on this but apparently it is very difficult if not impossible to actually track the number of contracts coming to Wales or anywhere in fact. Perhaps, Arthur, you would like to comment.

Mr Emyr: Yes, we have invested as an Assembly Government in the London 2012 Business Network and we compete for the portal for business and games procurement together with Northern Ireland, Scotland and nine English regions. There are two difficulties in terms of assessing an accurate picture of the return to Wales or in fact any other part of the UK and the first is that there is no database of the whole of the supply chain. The Tier One contracts - those are the contracts that the Olympic Delivery Authority are letting directly, of which there will be around 2,000, but that is 2,000 out of perhaps 75,000 contracts in total throughout the Games project and the whole of the supply chain - are well known and what happens to them is in the public domain but in terms of the whole of the supply chain, down through the various contracting tiers, there is no database at present certainly. That is one part of the problem, identifying which companies are actually getting what pieces of work, and where and working to whom. The other difficulty, and it is an understandable one but there is a balancing act here, is that all those contractors working on the Games project are required to sign no marketing rights clauses. This is to protect the Olympic brand, which of course is very valuable to the organising committee - this is the property they have and which they can raise their commercial revenues with, so if you are a supplier from Wales entering into a contract, you are obviously paid and contracted for the goods or services you are supplying, but what you cannot do is then market yourself as an Olympic supplier. There is a value to being able to call yourself an Olympic supplier and that is a separate sponsorship agreement that would need to be agreed with either the Olympic Delivery Authority or the London Organising Committee.

Q40 Chairman: Have these issues been the subject of public discussion and public debate? I have not read about them.

Mr Emyr: They have certainly been the subject of considerable discussion amongst the membership of the Nations and Regions Group, with the Olympic Delivery Authority and with LOCOG because what we would like to know, obviously, is which Welsh companies are being successful, to promote them and tell that story - where there is a good story to tell we want to be able to tell it, but actually to be able to agree case studies involving Welsh companies, or they could be companies from any other nation or region, is not easy. That is a problem.

Mr Jones: Four companies have won contracts and 11 others have been shortlisted for contracts that we know. Of course, the Department for the Economy and Transport is actively promoting work within the business community to make sure that they are able to bid for contracts or they are encouraged to do so.

Q41 Hywel Williams: Are you confident that those people organising the Games in London have been sufficiently enthusiastic about following up a chain of supply or could they be doing more? Are they enthusiasts or are they blocking? We might have the opportunity to put this very point to the secretary of state you see, and we would be interested in your opinion.

Mr Emyr: In fairness to the Olympic Delivery Authority and the organising committee, the business network and the compete-for system, time will tell how effective that system will be in terms of driving business through to all parts of the UK. They have been proactive in delivering with partners that initiative so the commercial opportunities are more open and transparent and accessible than any previous Games have been, but that is not to say it is an open door for companies either. The Olympic Delivery Authority and LOCOG have come to Wales, they have participated in business-facing events in Wales on several occasions so they have done quite a lot in terms of attempting to meet us halfway. That is not to say they cannot continue to do what they are doing and to do more but also there is a responsibility on the private sector in Wales to respond. Ultimately it is their opportunity and sometimes I get a sense that some companies in Wales think this is a bit too difficult, a bit too big for us, a bit too far away perhaps, but whether those barriers are real or perceived I do not know. All of us that have an opportunity to engage with businesses in Wales, large and small, provided they are smart and they are competitive - and we have many of those - must make clear that the opportunities may be there for them. Certainly, if we do not make the attempt we will not succeed.

Mr Jones: That responsibility of course extends to all of us as Assembly Members and to Members of Parliament as well to try to encourage companies to see whether there are opportunities here because it is a lot of money and there are lots of contracts.

Q42 Nia Griffith: May I just start with a small point of clarification? When you were talking about the mountain biking event you suggested that the reason Wales was unsuccessful was primarily because of a London-focused approach. Would you say there are any other reasons why the bid was not successful?

Mr Jones: The working group made representations to the organising committee that there were world class facilities here in Wales ready-made so there was no need to build anything, but I think it is the policy of the International Olympic Committee that they wish to see all of the events as close as possible to the central sites. Obviously if you have sailing you cannot do it in Berkshire but that is why it is on the south coast and not perhaps somewhere like Pwllheli.

Q43 Nia Griffith: Could you perhaps tell us about what efforts are being made to encourage visiting teams to make their base or their camp as it were in Wales?

Mr Jones: Again, this is a particular focus of the Government and Arthur is leading on this. Of course we have already had some success in that the Australian Paralympic team has stated that they will be based in Wales, between Newport and Cardiff. They will be a large contingent and it is worth considering that if you think about the UK team before the Sydney Olympics and then Beijing: they spent £1 million on Sydney and £1.5 million on Beijing on camp infrastructure. That is a lot of money to be spent locally. In terms of the UK the team was a very, very large one, but if we can multiply the number of teams such as Australia - which is a very large team with 300-plus people - elsewhere there are 31 sites that have been approved so obviously that will bring a lot of benefits. That is not only material benefits in terms of contracts and jobs and so on but also opportunities for local communities, local school children and young people and coaches to interact with those teams and make links that will benefit us in a far wider way than merely in the sporting context.

Q44 Nia Griffith: How many teams could we accommodate in that way without affecting use by the home side of facilities that are available?

Mr Emyr: As Huw mentioned earlier we are very grateful that the Sports Council has been able to facilitate the secondment of a pre-games training manager for Wales who works at the Major Events Team. His name is David Evans, he has a high performance sport background but he has also worked on three successive British Olympic Association holding camps: pre-Beijing, pre-Athens and pre-Sydney, so we have somebody in a national co-ordinating role who has experience of Olympic holding camps that is as good as anyone anywhere else in the UK. We have shown you copies of the brochure we have produced which talks about a Team Wales approach to this; that can sound, I guess, quite glib at times but it is something that we are actually delivering from the top of government in Wales, down through and across Wales. The First Minister, for example, has written to the presidents of Olympic and Paralympic committees around the world inviting them to look at Wales; of course it will be their decision and not ours as to where they prepare and train but we are fortunate in terms of our devolved status that we have, for example, something like 50 or 60 honorary consuls working on Wales' behalf across the world and pre-Games training is going to be a theme in a meeting with those consuls in the next couple of weeks. In fact, one of those consuls has already made very high level and effective contacts and connections on our behalf with the Slovakian Olympic Committee - that is a relationship we had not anticipated we would have at all a short while ago, but because of these links and connections that we can generate in Wales that may be an opportunity for us. There is an interesting link there to some of the investment that has gone on and is still going on in facilities in Wales - the new white water canoe slalom course that has been built in Cardiff Bay of course will come on stream literally in a year or 18 months or so. The Olympic gold medallist in canoe slalom in Beijing was a Slovakian, so we have that connection and hopefully that will add some value to the launch of that facility and pre-Games training. As you have heard earlier this afternoon it is something that is not just there for a few weeks in 2012, it links to Glasgow 2014 and other competitions in the future. It is just worth mentioning briefly as well that in terms of, for example, the Australian Paralympic link they will be bringing 300-plus athletes and support staff for a period of weeks in 2012, they will also be here in individual sport clusters over the next four years. In fact, small groups of athletes from Australia already experienced camp in Cardiff and in Newport - the cyclists have been here at the village in Newport and using the velodrome and some athletes have been based at the National Indoor Athletic Centre in UWIC. They will not just be here in 2012, therefore, they will be here in small groups over the whole period.

Q45 Hywel Williams: Can I ask about the cultural and sporting events for young people and to what existent is this a UK programme or is the Welsh Assembly Government organising its own programme? If you are, how are you co-ordinating it with the UK-wide programme itself?

Mr Jones: The Cultural Olympiad is a UK-wide programme but there is a Welsh co-ordinator who has been appointed and is up and running. Of course, you have details of the programme that has been drawn up under the title Power of the Flame and there are four different projects there, one using the connection with the eight major CADW sites throughout Wales including Harlech, Caernarvon, Denbigh, Flint, Laugharne and St David's, and that will involve artists and groups of local young people - it should involve hundreds if not thousands of young people. There is the other programme which Disability Arts Cymru is involved with under the title of Prometheus, as I understand it, and then there are two other projects as well, the Urdd and the Valley Kids which is a very interesting link between the Valley Kids programme which has been a huge success and the Urdd working together on an interesting programme with links to South Africa in a sporting connection.

Mr Emyr: Valley Kids have a specific link with South Africa but they and the Urdd are also developing a range of joint activities.

Mr Jones: Those are the specific things around the Cultural Olympiad but then there are wider opportunities of course to make international links. I refer, for example, to the Australian team coming to Wales; there are opportunities there and I think the education department is already in discussions about possibly making links between schools in Australia and Wales. That opportunity may arise all over the world so there is that aspect of it as well.

Q46 Hywel Williams: Those are bilateral links between Wales and other countries; what about co-ordinating events in Wales and taking advantage of the opportunities that might arise on a UK basis as well?

Mr Emyr: The Power of the Flame projects are funded by the legacy trust so in effect that is a community level tier of activity for the Cultural Olympiad in Wales, but of course in terms of what the London Organising Committee has to deliver or is aspiring to deliver, there are two tiers of activity there, one is the mandatory ceremonies and events which they are obliged to deliver to the International Olympic Committee - the opening and closing ceremonies, the torch relay, the medal ceremonies and those sorts of events - and then there are the signature projects that were put in the London bid - the Shakespeare Festival, the Film Festival and so on, there are a raft of those major, UK-wide Cultural Olympiad programmes. I think the chance for us with Gwyn Williams as the programmer and ourselves involved and the cultural community in Wales, one of our inherent strengths is that we find a way to play into those projects and those ceremonies in as many ways as possible, whether it is through our leading artists and performers, directors, choreographers, technicians and so on. There are opportunities and there is a series of conversations taking place, one very shortly in Cardiff, led by Martin Green the head of ceremonies at the London Organising Committee. He is coming to Wales to talk to people here about the architecture of those and the ambition of those ceremonies and mandatory projects that they need to deliver. There are also opportunities with things like the torch relay that will come to all parts of Wales and we have made formal and informal representations to LOCOG regarding the torch relay, specifically in the context of the Urdd National Eisteddfod which will be in North Wales in 2012; it will be the biggest event in North Wales in 2012 and we have asked that in agreeing the torch relay programme we would very much like to see them find a way of bringing the torch relay to the Urdd Eisteddfod in North Wales in 2012.

Q47 Hywel Williams: How far advanced are the conversations? You said there was going to be a visit to Cardiff; including something about Shakespeare is shutting a barn door, is it not, it is dead easy. How far ahead are the discussions about being creative about opportunities in Wales as far as the Cultural Olympiad is concerned or is it just having a look-see at the moment?

Mr Emyr: In terms of the mandatory opening and closing ceremonies and so on, they are at the very early stages of planning those events and it is a framework and ambition conversation that is going on at the moment. The detail, I suspect, will not emerge for at least a year or maybe more.

Q48 Hywel Williams: In written evidence the Sports Council for Wales suggests that a step change is needed in school sports to maximise the potential benefits of the 2012 Games,. What plans does the Assembly Government have to promote sporting excellence in schools?

Mr Jones: I am sorry, I missed the evidence given by the Sports Council but of course the Sports Council itself promotes activity in junior schools through the Dragon Sports programme and then in secondary schools through the 5x60 programme which aims to inspire young people to take part in sport and all physical recreation of different kinds, whether it is within school or perhaps outside school through clubs. It is true that through those programmes specifically, I would imagine, and perhaps by enhancing them we would hope to see more people being enthused by the Olympic Games. Listening to the discussion this morning, you can spend a certain amount of money or more money in the hope that you can get people involved but also what we do not know is whether the Games itself will actually encourage people - young people especially - given the success of many of the Welsh athletes in Beijing; will that encourage teachers and head teachers to be more enthusiastic about these opportunities and getting young people involved. There is also the other very specific thing in that the UK School Games is coming to Wales this year. That will be 1500 elite athletes from all over the UK taking part in nine sports at centres in Newport, Cardiff and Swansea. That hopefully again, although I have not been in any detailed discussion, should provide a platform, not only for young people but also to be a marker for success and enthuse people.

Q49 Hywel Williams: Will you be specifically promoting sport for people with disability and also the less popular sports, is that part of your intention as well?

Mr Jones: In terms of disability I heard the closing remarks of the Sports Council which were very well made that Wales can be rightly proud of the success it has had in promoting disability sports through Disability Sports Wales under the leadership of Jon Morgan. It is fair to say that not only has that success been seen in terms of medals and the percentage of the UK team that came from Wales, but it is also fair to say that there is a huge amount of work going on just to give opportunities to people to take part in sport and physical recreation for disabled people. It is one of the things that we can really be proud of in terms of investment that has gone in but also the enthusiasm which has been embraced by the Sports Council and people out there in the community.

Q50 Hywel Williams: I accept the softer things like enthusiasm and so on ---

Mr Jones: But in terms of sporting activity and disabled sports it is real in terms of the activity taking place and the success that has come also at an international level.

Q51 Hywel Williams: I am not dismissing that at all but can I ask you will there be a permanent legacy as well in terms of improved facilities and playing fields? Will there be that?

Mr Jones: As I have already said the fact that the lottery funding has been cut means that there will be an effect in terms of developing structures and facilities, but that money will come back on stream if we can engage more people to take part in sporting activities and physical recreation in general. Although the Olympics are about sporting achievements, it is encouraging physical activity and physical recreation in a much wider context and not only in terms of sporting activity. One would hope of course that this is a permanent legacy and that we can come closer to the Scandinavian model where people seem to be taking it almost for granted that you would involve yourself in some sort of physical recreation or sporting activity and are much healthier for it. There is no reason why Wales cannot become a model itself of that sort of culture.

Mr Emyr: Perhaps just to add to that, I guess when you are passionate about any subject, as a former sportsman and somebody who has worked in sports policy and is still involved with the sports agenda it is fairly easy in life to preach to the converted on pretty much any subject but not so easy when people are less enamoured than you might be in terms of specific issues or policy agendas. The one thing I found in getting involved with the Olympic and Paralympic agendas in Wales is the degree of interest across individuals, organisations, sectors in the Olympic Games that you would not necessarily see in the context of any other sporting event. That is potentially quite a powerful dynamic, and potentially a powerful catalyst. Whether it is something that is there in the context of the proposals our colleagues in the Education Department in the Assembly Government are currently producing in terms of their response to the Games legacy agenda for Wales, or in fact any other sector, that catalyst it is fair to say exists and can help to influence and drive perhaps only an incremental change, but if there are sufficient incremental changes across a nation then that can make a significant difference.

Q52 Hywel Williams: I take it that this enthusiasm extends to corporate sponsorship and that it all happens in a certain economic climate, while at the present time there is a downturn. Have you detected any effect or do you foresee any effect of the current economic situation in respect of corporate sponsorship?

Mr Emyr: Clearly in terms of the corporate sponsorship marketplace in one sense the Games have come to the UK at an unfortunate time; nonetheless there are very major companies and organisations involved in sponsoring the London 2012 Games. We have already seen evidence of Lloyds TSB, for example, investing in promising young athletes throughout the UK and we are hopeful that organisations like BT and others that have a significant presence here in Wales and of course a very large customer base in Wales will, in the way they seek to activate their partnership with the London Games, take a UK view of how their activation programmes are developed. I think that is an important agenda and one we should not lose sight of.

Q53 Chairman: Could we come back to the Paralympic Games? Are you confident that the profile of the marketing of the Paralympic Games will be on a par with the Olympic Games in Wales?

Mr Jones: That depends really on what is happening in London. One thing that has certainly happened - and it happened in Beijing I think - is that gradually the Paralympic Games have moved more into the public domain and into the vision of the public, in a way that I never suspected that it would really. Beijing was really a turning point in terms of the coverage as well and indeed it got quite high ratings even, maybe not for the first time but certainly for the first time in my experience. I would expect that to continue. Of course, the fact that the Olympics will be held in London will make it more of an event for us here in Wales: it is closer, it is happening next door and that in itself will generate enthusiasm and make both the Olympics and the Paralympics more visible and perhaps more immediate. The fact that Wales has got a head start - though there is always a danger of other people catching on and matching us in our efforts - means we are well-placed to take advantage of that.

Q54 Chairman: Could I press you on that then? Would we expect to see the Welsh Assembly Government making a special effort - never mind about London - to ensure that what you just described then, the significant advance in Beijing, to ensure that the Paralympic Games will be at least on a par with the Olympics?

Mr Jones: Perhaps I should point out that we had two homecomings for all the athletes from Wales who took part in Beijing and we treated them on a par. They were two different events because of the timing but it was important that we acknowledged their success immediately on their return, and I think the Paralympians and the Olympians got five star treatment, deservedly so, and I was very proud of the fact that we pulled out all the stops for both teams. I would hope that we would do the same in the future - why would we not and why should we not?

Q55 Chairman: Will the regional sports institutes in Wales or Elite Cymru be getting special additional funding in the run-up to 2012?

Mr Jones: I am not aware of any special additional funding being given to those programmes. Most of the elite athletes, as I understand it, are already on the UK programme - there is an Elite Cymru squad and if they continue to improve then obviously they might go on to the UK programme. We are looking of course at the programme in general, at the way we operate and how successful we have been, but at the moment there is no specific allocation of money.

Q56 Nia Griffith: How can we maximise the efforts to encourage visitors to come here when they come to the 2012 Olympics in London, and are there any particular agencies who should be working together to make sure that Wales is highlighted when the UK is marketed?

Mr Jones: Perhaps Arthur will answer this in greater detail but there are ongoing discussions with Visit Britain in terms of the profile of Wales and it is up to Visit Wales then to try and draw people from London, but that is not an easy task, as we well know because visitors to London tend to be directed usually to well-known centres, either in England or perhaps the higher international profile of Scotland. The Ryder Cup may have an influence on this and if we can market the image and the brand image of Wales during the Ryder Cup then that may have an ongoing effect for the Olympics, especially in terms of those countries which are golfing mad, and there are an increasing number of those. That may have an impact on that but Arthur perhaps can say something about the relationship with Visit Britain.

Mr Emyr: There is a very close working relationship between Visit Wales and Visit Britain and, clearly, the 2012 Games are integral to Visit Britain's plans in the coming years. In fact, Visit Britain came to the last Wales steering group 2012 meeting and gave a presentation on how their forward strategic planning is shaping up for 2012. Jonathan Jones, by the way, of Visit Wales sits as deputy chair of that group, so we are working closely with Visit Britain and within that context assessing how Visit Wales can specifically respond itself. As the Minister has indicated the Ryder Cup is an event of global significance in itself and that is the first global event over the next few years and Wales will be firmly the focus of that event. We need to work through 2010, therefore, as part of the build-up to 2012 but also in terms of the dialogue with Visit Britain in fact we mentioned the Australian Paralympic Committee and their decision to train in Wales. That relationship is now forming a part of Visit Britain's efforts in promoting the UK in Australia, so there are tangential links that can be usefully developed here in a number of ways.

Mr Jones: Can I just mention that I had a discussion with the Chair of Visit Britain and one of the issues that he mentioned and is concerned about is something that is not specific to Wales, it is the problem of the cost of visas to the UK. That is proving to be a problem for visitors and that is perhaps something that you might like to raise. As I said, it is not specific to Wales but it is a concern that he raised with us.

Mr Emyr: Just to add, the Croeso programme has just been launched by Visit Wales which obviously is about gearing up the whole of the visitor and tourism industry in Wales for 2010 initially, but of course that is part of the continuum and it hopefully will put the industry on a sound footing in terms of providing the best possible Welsh welcome in 2012 and in future years.

Mr Jones: And to make sure that people who come to Wales are aware that they are in Wales, and to improve customer care standards as well.

Q57 Hywel Williams: Wales is a bilingual country and we are part of the UK process of delivering the Olympics. Can I ask you, are you satisfied that the Welsh language and culture are sufficiently embedded in the whole delivery process, looking across the piece?

Mr Jones: In terms of the Cultural Olympiad I am sure that the Welsh language will be an integral part of those programmes. In terms of educational material that has been printed, the stuff that has been prepared for schools is bilingual and although there is a website it is not fully bilingual yet. Arthur will know more details on that.

Mr Emyr: Yes, the newly launched London Organising Committee education programme is Get Set. There was an earlier incarnation I'ch Marciau (On Your Marks) and that was developed in full consultation with the curriculum officials and education officials in the Assembly Government and it was delivered bilingually. The Get Set programme was launched a few months ago and is still in fact a Welsh site and a suite of materials that is in development, but that will go live on a bilingual basis in the very near future as well.

Q58 Hywel Williams: That is material in Wales but we are going to be represented culturally, I assume, in the other events in London itself. It might sound like a frivolous question but we are not going to see any singing daffodils are we, or black-faced miners, appearing?

Mr Emyr: I do not think that is likely. In terms of the cultural programme we do have, as we have mentioned, Gwyn Williams as creative programmer for Wales who is working directly with the cultural team in the organising committee. In terms of whatever is used to reflect Wales in 2012 it will hopefully be the image of Wales that we wish to project and not what others might wish to project.

Mr Jones: The point you make is a valid one and much has been made of the London Olympic bid being multicultural and reaching out to all parts of society. If the Olympic committee wishes to project an idea of the UK as a place of nations and regions I presume they will be culturally aware of all parts of the United Kingdom, but time will tell.

Mr Emyr: We have also facilitated discussions between LOCOG and the Welsh Language Board. There have been several discussions and, as I understand it, they are working towards agreeing a Welsh language plan. If that is concluded it would be welcome.

Chairman: That is a very positive and challenging note on which to end. It will certainly inform, as all our evidence today will inform, our next session which will be with the Olympics Minister, Tessa Jowell, next week. Thank you for your evidence, Minister, and that of your colleague this afternoon and also for your earlier memorandum; it was extremely helpful to us. Thank you very much.