CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 1071-iiiHouse of COMMONSMINUTES OF EVIDENCETAKEN BEFORE
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This is a
corrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House.
The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the
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The transcript is an approved formal record of these proceedings. It will be printed in due course |
Oral Evidence
Taken before the
on
Members present
Sir Patrick Cormack, in the Chair
Mr John Grogan
Lady Hermon
Dr Alasdair McDonnell
Stephen Pound
Mrs Iris Robinson
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Memorandum submitted by Department for Culture, Media and Sport
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Mr Siôn Simon MP, Minister for Creative Industries, and Mr Keith Smith, Deputy Director, Department for Culture, Media and Sport, gave evidence.
Q117 Chairman:
Minister,
I understand that this is in fact your first appearance before a select
committee, so you are doubly welcome and I hope it will not be too distressing
or stressful an experience for you! You
will know that we took evidence last week in
Mr Simon: Yes, the title is deficient
in the extent to which it accurately reflects the Department's commitment to
the whole
Q118 Chairman:
I am
sure your apology will be accepted by the people of
Mr Simon: Of public service broadcasting, no. I think the benefits are unquantifiable because many of the benefits lie in the public good, in social good, in defining for ourselves what kind of a country we are, what kind of people we are, who we want to be, who we aspire to be, what we stand for. It covers all kinds of things which might not necessarily be economically rewarding or commercially viable but which are nevertheless, for all kinds of reasons, really important. I genuinely think you cannot really talk about public service broadcasting in this country without the BBC looming hugely large within that and despite how much we talk about it I think we underestimate the importance of the BBC, the centrality of the BBC to our national life. It is much more pervasive, it is much bigger and more all-encompassing than even people realise, I think. BBC regional television, BBC regional and local radio, as well as all the more headlining national services, I think really have been, over the last century, a fundamental aspect of how we as a nation define and understand who we are and what we stand for.
Q119 Chairman:
Would
you accept that the very individual identity of
Mr Simon: I would have thought so, and
so I am led to believe. It is not for me
to tell you or the people of Northern Ireland what is important to them, but
certainly if you look at
Q120 Chairman: Have you had a chance yourself to see the broadcasts it makes?
Mr Simon: I have not.
Q121 Chairman:
Is it
your intention to take an opportunity to go to
Mr Simon: That is exactly my intention. I have to say, having done a certain amount of homework for this inquiry and this Committee, I feel now that obviously I know more about broadcasting in Northern Ireland than I did, I am greatly interested and engaged and, yes, I am very keen to visit Northern Ireland and see for myself.
Q122 Chairman: Could I just suggest to you that you not only look at the evidence that we received last week but that you give serious consideration to trying to talk to some at least of the same people?
Mr Simon: Certainly.
Chairman: Thank you very much.
Q123 Lady
Hermon: It is very nice to see you
before us this afternoon, Minister. I am
going to change the subject slightly and I am going to move to digital
switchover. As I am sure you can
appreciate,
Mr Simon: There are lots of issues
there. One of them is the range of very
technical issues, which are about ensuring that having two jurisdictions
broadcasting back-to-back, next to each other, the signals do not interfere and
cancel each other out. That issue is
being dealt with at a technical level and I do not pretend to know the
technical details of how it is being dealt with, but I am assured that it is
being dealt with and that the people dealing with it are confident that by the
time Northern Ireland switches over nobody should be experiencing interference
or signal problems, or any problems relating to being interfered with from the
Republic that would not apply to any other part of the country that did not have
an international border. As you say,
these are problems which apply in the east coast of
Q124 Lady Hermon: Yes. Could I push you a little further then? Are you actually guaranteeing to the people of Northern Ireland that by the time the digital switchover takes place, which is delayed in terms of Northern Ireland, there will be no loss of broadcasting, either radio or television broadcasting, from the Republic of Ireland?
Mr Simon: Now we are talking about the
loss of incoming signals from the
Lady Hermon: Excellent! I can see your official nodding his head.
Q125 Chairman: How soon is "fairly soon"?
Mr Simon: It is fairly soon.
Q126 Chairman: But is it before Christmas?
Mr Simon: I do not know. I do not think it is that soon.
Q127 Chairman: Is it before the Election?
Mr Simon: Yes, we think so. I am not prevaricating, I genuinely do not know when it will be. It is not me personally who is doing the negotiations.
Q128 Chairman: But I think it would help very much if you could give us an idea. I do not want to press you too much, but is it likely to be in February or March, or are we talking of April? When would you expect this to be?
Mr Simon: I would not expect it to be in the next couple of weeks, but -
Q129 Chairman: You have just said it would not be before Christmas?
Mr Simon: Probably not before Christmas, although possibly before Christmas, and hopefully not very long after Christmas if it is after Christmas.
Q130 Lady Hermon: Is there someone else within the Department you would like to nominate to come and give us evidence who would have responsibility?
Mr Simon: No, I do not think so. It is a negotiation with the foreign government. It is ongoing. I do not think we would want to give a running commentary on the negotiation, where it is going, what the terms are and when it will be concluded. It is happening, we are doing it, it will be done pretty soon, and whoever else was here nobody else would say any more than that, in fact I have probably said more than most other people would.
Q131 Lady Hermon: Thank you. Your official is nodding in agreement with that, so thank you very much. Could I finally just ask you, if ITV plc were to stop being a public service broadcaster with its obligation to provide news and current affairs programmes, which comes with the status of being a plc, would access to all-Ireland broadcasting provide sufficient plurality?
Mr Simon: No.
Lady Hermon: That seems fairly succinct.
Chairman: We are very happy with monosyllabic answers as long as they are definite. Thank you. We have that on the record.
Q132 Dr
McDonnell: Arising out of some of the evidence last week,
when we took some evidence from Northern Ireland, is it your opinion, Minister,
that public service broadcasting should have production quotas from Northern
Ireland for programmes made, for the volume of spend, or indeed for the programmes
made by local independent companies? In
other words, what I am saying is, should Ulster Television, for instance, have
a quota feeding into the ITN channels of their productions? How would you see public service broadcasting
investing in
Mr Simon: They do have quotas of some kind, so they have all got, outside the M25, quotas. I understand what you are saying is should they have specifically national quotas.
Q133 Dr
McDonnell: The sense we got is that yes, quotas are
there, but they are very low and that there is a big
Mr Simon: I think it varies broadcaster
by broadcaster according to their strength and ability to do it. The production quotas in the BBC are
relatively high. The production quotas
in ITV and the commercial PSBs are also relatively high outside the M25, so it
is still 35% outside the M25, but where it does not immediately seem to help
directly is that there is not a national production quota for ITV
companies. Ofcom has just directed
Channel 4 to bring in national production quotas, which are set fairly low in
the first instance, I think it is 2 or 3% for
Q134 Dr McDonnell: The sense we got was that where there are quotas they are very small and basically my sense was that there was not even the capacity in some cases to create the critical mass to create a production industry. There is a critical level which needs to be reached. Can you give us an undertaking, or is that asking too much, that there will be an emphasis going forward to the peripheral nations, as it were?
Mr Simon: I think it is fair to say
that in the t.v. production sector
Q135 Chairman:
Mr Simon: I do not think it is true
that
Q136 Chairman:
I
think you do need to look at the evidence we received last week in
Mr Simon: As I have said, I am keen to go and talk to people and listen to their experience. What the broadcasters and the regulators tell me is that while television production is not an industry in which Northern Ireland would claim to be leading the way, nevertheless it is a nation with a very strong broadcasting sector in which its slice of the production pie, whilst small, is real.
Q137 Dr McDonnell: I think, Minister, we accept some of the points you are making but the difficulty for us is that the evidence we heard last week, both from officials of organised structures like Ulster Television, which does a certain amount of production itself, but equally from small independent companies was that it was very difficult. The flow of business was neither reliable enough nor sustainable enough to maintain the critical mass of operation there, and that is the dilemma. There may be quotas at some level, but they found it very, very hard to maintain a critical mass, and that fed back then in other ways because there was a deep sense that as a result of a shortage of home production, as it were, within Northern Ireland, that Northern Ireland was not being portrayed to the rest of Britain and that it was still being seen as a place apart, a place that we should not go or should not even think about. So I would urge you, Minister, to try and ensure that that is pursued. There is a number of issues there still around quotas, but quite honestly, Chairman, I would rather perhaps leave them at the moment until we come back to that in some shape or form, because there are issues around quotas in terms of getting stuff done. There are issues in terms of the M25 circuit and production not getting outside that, and certainly the submissions we received were that small independent producers in Northern Ireland found it easier to get work from the US than they did from London, and that was a very, very damning indictment.
Mr Simon: Can I just say that I take
those points. As a matter of principle,
I am on your side. I would like to see the production sector in
Q138 Chairman: We hope we know what you mean and it is an interesting take on it, but yes.
Mr Simon: The BBC, which is a directly
publicly funded public sector broadcaster, public service broadcaster, has got,
I think a 12% production quota for
Q139 Chairman: Minister, I think there is a certain confusion between quotas and targets and I would ask you to look at that very carefully. I would just like to take you back to one of the points Dr McDonnell made before I bring in Mrs Robinson. When we were questioning last week, it became quite clear that it was a twin-track inquiry because the two points which emerged which were of equal importance to our witnesses were first of all the quality and the security of indigenous broadcasting within Northern Ireland, such as the excellent UTV news bulletins to which you yourself referred, but also the betrayal of Northern Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom. This is something which is of acute concern to our colleagues from Northern Ireland and to all of us who know that very beautiful part of the United Kingdom and who feel that for far too long whenever it has been portrayed, whether in news bulletins, dramas, documentaries, or whatever else, it has been "The Troubles, the Troubles, the Troubles," and very little has focused on the positive. This is something which came across very strongly last week and whilst we do not like to think the BBC is owned by the Government and we never want that to happen, we think a little gentle influence to try and achieve a better balance would be a good thing, and we hope you will be sympathetic to that.
Mr Simon: I am sympathetic to that, although sensitive to not owning the BBC!
Chairman: Thank you very much.
Q140 Mrs
Robinson: Can I just ask, first of all, what is the
Government's assessment of the amount and diversity of t.v. news provision
within
Mr Simon: I am told that all the
research shows that, as the Chairman was just saying, the
Q141 Mrs
Robinson: I am pleased at the fact that you recognise
how well the UTV is doing in
Mr Simon: The answer is the answer to
the first question. The man from UTV, I
think, said that it is not broke so it does not need fixing. The UTV output is the most successful and the
best in the country and the IFNC pilots essentially are aimed at addressing a
problem in places where news has become economically unsustainable. That is the simple answer. I can understand, from the point of view of
the people of
Chairman: I think we would all say "Amen" to that.
Q142 Lady
Hermon: Yes, absolutely. That is a very significant point. Was that point mentioned in the unfortunately
titled "Digital Britain" report? Was
that explanation given to the people of
Mr Simon: I think it was clear in the
report that the problem which was being addressed was the declining revenues of
regional commercial broadcasters and their declining licence values, and the
fact that several of them either had become or were about to become negative in
terms of their licence value, alongside the huge changes and difficulties being
experienced by regional newspapers, another area in which, although under some
pressure, the situation in Northern Ireland is stronger and better than in many
other parts of the country. So I think
it was clear in Digital Britain what the question was that needed to be
answered, what the problem was that needed to be solved. I think it probably does not explicitly say
that this does not so much arise in
Chairman: A post-pilot.
Q143 Mr
Grogan: Just to follow on from that, I think you are
right, if you go into the building of UTV, as many of us have, you get an
impression of what perhaps Granada would have been like 25 or 30 years ago, a
very, very strong broadcasting station.
Just to be clear what happens next, if these three pilots work - and
Ofcom has said that Government should plan now for an alternative model based
on Independently Funded News Consortia, and I presume that means
Mr Simon: The plan is that in 2112-13 these IFNCs (if we can call them that) will roll out nationally. That is the plan, and how the roll-out works will clearly be very significantly informed by the pilots. If the pilots went catastrophically badly, then perhaps the roll-out would not work, but the plan is that they should roll out across the country and what would roll out would be a consortium. So we would not expect it to be a single broadcaster.
Q144 Mr Grogan: Why not in Northern Ireland, because everywhere else, in my region, Yorkshire Television, they are throwing in the towel and ITV generally is throwing in the towel on regional news, but in Northern Ireland there is a unique situation where you have a well-established broadcaster who would want to continue to provide an integrated news service. Admittedly, there might be other bidders against them, but why could they not bid to do that and get a share of the cash on offer if they were successful in bidding? Why on earth not?
Mr Simon: However successful they are now, there is no reason why they could not be part of a consortium which did new, extra things. This is very strongly about a multi-platform news offering, it is not just about t.v. but integrated broadcast, newsprint, online, and does they all in different ways and tries to find a new economics which, for instance, does not just fill the existing Channel 3 news slot but also changes the economics of regional newspapers, which ends up doing things in the local, regional, online spaces that are not currently resourced, and so on. It is about doing more, extra new things.
Q145 Mr Grogan: I think they would argue that they are also involved in radio and online as well, but leaving that aside, in Northern Ireland is there also an additional factor to take into account that in many other parts of the United Kingdom it is regional newspapers who will be expected to lead the news consortia and I think in Northern Ireland particularly whoever would be a successful bidder would have to be seen to have a cross-community appeal?
Mr Simon: Yes, I would assume that
whoever was a successful bidder would have to be seen to have a cross-community
appeal, but it is not for me to say who that would be. I do not think
Q146 Mr Grogan: Just finally on the contained contestable fund which is planned to come in in 2012, will there be possibilities for companies in Northern Ireland to put in bids to make other sorts of programmes other than regional news potentially, or will it be just for Northern Ireland news that they will be able to put in bids?
Mr Simon: We have not ruled out the potential in the future for the funding stream for this to include things which are not news, but for the moment it is just news.
Q147 Chairman: Before I bring in Mr Pound, could I just put one point to you which came from witnesses last week, when it was suggested that Wales had got enormous impetus from Doctor Who, not a programme about Wales but because it was produced in Wales and there was a consequential suggestion that if Northern Ireland had a resident commissioner perhaps there would be greater attention to Northern Ireland as a really exciting centre of broadcasting. How does that idea commend itself to you?
Mr Simon: It is a commendable idea. It is not an idea for me. As you know, I do not own the BBC!
Q148 Chairman: You have withdrawn your prior comment. Never has it been owned so briefly!
Mr Simon: I take the point. I have a certain sympathy. It is a matter for the Trust, but the Doctor Who paradigm is an excellent one.
Q149 Stephen
Pound: I would point out, Chairman, that a number of
our Parliamentary colleagues feel that the Doctor Who benefit is
Cardiff-centric and does not do
Mr Simon: Do you mean within the BBC?
Q150 Stephen Pound: Yes. In the report, which we shall now refer to as "UK Digital", the report formerly known as Digital Britain, there was reference to this mechanism.
Mr Simon: It is not a reference which rings a bell with me and it is not something that -
Q151 Chairman: Does it appeal to you? You have disclaimed ownership of the report quite recently and now, having briefly advanced, you have disclaimed ownership of the BBC, but does this idea commend itself to you?
Mr Simon: I would need to hear a bit more about it.
Q152 Stephen
Pound: That is fine.
Perhaps we can follow up on that one.
Can I just say that one of the difficulties of broadcasting in
Mr Simon: The majority of the public
sector funding is through the BBC, and we have talked at some length about
targets and quotas, and production, which conversation was about non-news
programming content and production, so it is central to what the BBC tell
us. I think it is 12% in the regions and
3% in
Q153 Stephen
Pound: I am sure it will not have escaped you that
many of our very skilled technicians and also journalists such as Steven Owen
and Eamonn Holmes, a great many people in fact work in GB. I do not think there is a shortage of skill
and talent in
Mr Simon: As I say, yes, non-news is important, non-news in the nations is important and supporting this through programming and production is important. The central government intervention is the licence fee and the BBC. We have already talked through the various targets, quotas, production programming. It is all there. I take the point that sometimes the quotas and targets seem lower than one would like them to be, but the fact that every broadcaster of every kind has got, whoever sets its targets and quotas, a range of targets and quotas for regional, national, non-metropolitan production programming is because it is fundamentally understood by the Government and the regulators that non-news programming in the nations and regions is important.
Q154 Stephen
Pound: The non-news programme can be padding, it can
be cartoons, it can even be, God forbid, X Factor or Strictly Come Dancing, but
in
Mr Simon: Put that question to me again, sorry.
Q155 Stephen Pound: Why did the Government not prioritise a contestable fund for non-news broadcasting? They chose specifically not to prioritise.
Mr Simon: Why did we prioritise news over non-news?
Q156 Stephen Pound: Yes, that is a far more elegant way of putting it, rather more succinct.
Mr Simon: Because the problem of news
was so acute, because in news the research is very clear that people very
strongly want a second source of local, regional broadcast news. Regional broadcast t.v. news is very
important to them and they do not just want to get it from the
Stephen Pound: I appreciate that. I have just been passed a note saying that in addition I should have actually mentioned Andrea Catherwood. I apologise for not doing that sooner. Thank you.
Q157 Chairman:
Of
course also, further to the point you have just made, news is incontestably
public service broadcasting. Two
questions I would like to put to you before we finish, if I may, Minister. First of all, what is the future of funding
for Irish language broadcasting and Ulster Scots broadcasting in
Mr Simon: The Irish language programming, as you know, the Government took over from DCAL this year and is committed to fund to the tune of £3 million a year until the end of 2011. Beyond that, we are into the next CSR period and, like everything else in the next CSR period, will have to take its chances.
Q158 Chairman:
And
Mr Smith: BBC spending on Ulster Scots is approximately £400,000 a year, mostly on radio, and that is the extent, to my knowledge, of funding for that.
Mr Simon: I think it is worth noting, while we are on it, that in relation to the Scottish Government fund, of the £14 million that is spent on Gaelic broadcasting the Scottish Government spends 10, so that is perhaps a message which can go out from here.
Q159 Chairman:
That
brings me neatly on to the final question I want to ask you. Do you envisage the possibility of devolving broadcasting
in
Mr Simon: Notwithstanding the
distinction of the Members in question, and indeed many of their colleagues,
no, we do not. I understand, obviously,
why there is always a pressure for more.
I think this has been looked at a lot over the last few years and I
think there are lots of good reasons why broadcasting remains more
appropriately a reserved matter. The
economies of scale that you get from broadcasting at the national level, the highly
capital-intensive nature of the business, the international licensing
agreements and arrangements which again we can more productively do as the
United Kingdom than as regional broadcasters, and the fact that broadcasting,
in the administration of the business, is inherently devolved and distributed
anyway. It is not as if there is a
single signal going out from
Chairman: Thank you for that and for
the clarity of that answer. Thank you
for the honesty and frankness with which you have tried to deal with our
various questions and I think that everything that has come out this afternoon
- and I do not say this in any critical or still less in any patronising sense
- does underline the importance the Committee would attach to you, as the
broadcasting minister, being able to go and familiarise yourself on the ground
in Northern Ireland and to look at the two issues which this Committee is
focusing on. One is, as I say, the
preservation, the security for the future of broadcasting which is indigenous
and of great importance to the people who live in