UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 595-ii

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

HOME AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

BOGUS COLLEGES

Tuesday 16 June 2009

KEVIN BRENNAN MP

Evidence heard in Public Questions 118-150

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Home Affairs Committee

on Tuesday 16 June 2009

Members present

Keith Vaz, in the Chair

Ms Karen Buck

Mr James Clappison

Mrs Ann Cryer

David T C Davies

Mrs Janet Dean

Patrick Mercer

Gwyn Prosser

Bob Russell

Mr Gary Streeter

Mr David Winnick

________________

Witness: Kevin Brennan MP, Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships and Consumer Affairs, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, gave evidence.

Q118 Chairman: May I welcome the Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships and Consumer Affairs in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills? May I congratulate you Minister on your promotion to your new position? This Committee began a one-off inquiry into bogus colleges a couple of weeks ago and we took evidence from the Minister for Immigration. We were so concerned about the role of the Department of Education, as it then was, that we decided to take evidence from an education minister. That is why we are glad that you have been able to come at very short notice to give evidence to us today. May I start? We heard previously that around 2,000 institutions that were on the original Register of Education Providers are not on the new register of sponsoring organisations. Is your estimate that there are about 2,000 bogus colleges or what is the estimate of your department as to the number of bogus colleges currently in existence in England and Wales?

Kevin Brennan: Yes, I read the evidence of Phil Woolas when he appeared before you and the figures that he used which indicated, as he said in his evidence, that there were under his estimate about 4,000 institutions which had been sponsoring students from outside the EEA countries and that on the new register about 1,600 institutions have registered. Obviously that does not mean that the difference between those two figures necessarily means those are bogus institutions. There might be a number of institutions which have not yet registered on the new register. It is possible that a number of institutions, for business reasons and cost reasons and other reasons, may have decided not to register or may have changed their practices. Obviously it is possible that amongst those institutions there are those who have not registered because they are of very low quality or are bogus.

Q119 Chairman: Of course. Do you have an estimate?

Kevin Brennan: I do not have a figure or estimate of that number from those figures which Phil mentioned to you in his presentation. What I do think is clear is that the new system which is in place will make sure that bogus institutions will find it very difficult indeed, if not impossible, to be able to register and to bring in students from outside the EEA.

Q120 Chairman: As an education minister you must be concerned about this matter. Even though they may not be able to bring in people from outside the EEA, there is still the possibility that these colleges exist. We were told a figure by other witnesses of hundreds of colleges and tens of thousands of students entering the United Kingdom who were bogus.

Kevin Brennan: I am concerned about the potential existence of bogus colleges and indeed bogus colleges have been discovered previously by investigations which have taken place. Obviously for non EEA students the system which is in place now makes it very difficult, if not impossible, for them to be able to recruit students and bring them into the country and, on the legacy issue of any students who are here, I think you questioned the Home Office Minister about that and he indicated what measures he is taking to ensure that those students are discovered and dealt with under the immigration system. From my point of view as a new minister with responsibility in this area in the new department, yes, I am concerned, having come into the job a week ago, to look at this and obviously to look at it a bit more intensively given this Committee's interest in it, to take a look at the issue of bogus colleges which may still exist, albeit not being able to bring students in from outside EEA but with a potential still to bring them in from inside the EEA.

Q121 Mrs Dean: My congratulations to you as well. Do you agree with the Association of Colleges and English UK that the continued existence of bogus colleges is damaging the UK's international reputation for quality education, as well as facilitating illegal immigration?

Kevin Brennan: The major problem has been dealt with which has affected the reputation which was this problem that you had Phil Woolas in front of you about, the problem of non-EEA students coming to the country, being brought in by bogus colleges, insufficient checks, et cetera. The new register is a very, very important step in dealing with that but I do take seriously what the AoC, the Association of Colleges and English UK are saying about the potential continued existence of bogus colleges, albeit ones which cannot now bring people in from outside EEA countries. That issue has been robustly addressed. There is a case to look at now and possibly to consider some further steps in relation to these institutions which may still be attracting students from countries within the EEA and still may not be providing the sort of education which they should be providing, if they were legitimate institutions.

Q122 Chairman: It is not fair on those who come here as part of the European Union if they arrive here thinking they are enrolling in a college to teach them, for example, English and find out that it has just been created above a fish and chip shop, which is what we heard two weeks ago.

Kevin Brennan: Yes, I read that evidence and obviously that would be completely unacceptable and it would have the potential to have a negative influence on this country's reputation for education which is very high, which remains very, very high, it is one of the most popular places in the world to come and study. In relation to that, I am considering what steps we might be able to take to try to deal with that residual issue of bogus colleges which are attracting students from within the EEA countries.

Q123 Mr Winnick: You said you had read our evidence. In your busy life did you also read the article of 21 May where Andrew Norfolk wrote about these scams, because there is no other way to describe them? Have you read the article?

Kevin Brennan: Yes, I have and I have a copy of it in front of me right now.

Q124 Mr Winnick: It does not reflect very well, does it, on any form of control over these bogus places?

Kevin Brennan: As Phil Woolas said in his evidence to you, The Times, by producing this article, performed a very useful public service by exposing some of the abuses outlined in the article. What is clear is that the measures which have been taken by creating the register under the UK Borders Agency were absolutely essential and I am glad that robust action has been taken by the Home Office.

Q125 Mr Winnick: I am sure the newspaper will be pleased by what the ministers have said but this is a problem which goes back quite a while, is it not? It is not something particularly new. Concerns about bogus colleges were raised with ministers as far back as ten years ago. One wonders why there has been so little progress, if at all.

Kevin Brennan: Looking at it, as I have in my brief period in this post, it appears that there has been a gradual ratcheting up of policy in this area and it has been gradual, I would agree with you, in relation to that. There was the creation of the register in the former departments which registered a whole lot of institutions way beyond those who are simply interested in bringing in students from outside the EEA countries. Inspections were introduced as part of that regime as well along the line but clearly the evidence showed that it was insufficient to deal with the problem and that is why the new registers have been created which ensure that those colleges which do sponsor students to come into the UK from outside the EEA are accredited. That gradual ratcheting up of policy has led us to a position now which is a much longer and more robust position than there has been in recent years. Of course, I understand as you understand from evidence which has been presented to you, that there was originally a register of colleges which was abolished by an announcement in the House of Commons in 1980 by someone called Dr Rhodes-Boyson whom I remember from my boyhood.

Q126 Mr Winnick: Yes, we remember him. You say "accredited", those colleges which receive overseas students, but accredited from when? When is this system in operation?

Kevin Brennan: The new register for the UKBA?

Q127 Mr Winnick: Yes.

Kevin Brennan: My understanding is that the IT system will be fully up and running by the end of the year which enables the Home Office to communicate directly with these institutions, but the register itself is already in place and students wishing to come to study in this country under the new points system would have to be sponsored by an institution on that register.

Q128 Mr Winnick: I wonder whether I might put this question to you which was not really a question for your ministerial colleague dealing with immigration control or what have you. Why is it that every establishment which wishes to provide education is not registered? Is it not your view that it does seem rather odd that anyone can start an education establishment whether or not they receive overseas students, because, as you say, that is going to change, without any form of registration control?

Kevin Brennan: I do think there is a case to look again ---

Q129 Mr Winnick: Urgently?

Kevin Brennan: Certainly urgently. --- at the extent to which there is a case to be made for registering or accrediting institutions which are offering courses of this kind and I am happy to undertake to look at that in the context of this debate and this inquiry you have been having. Obviously I shall be very interested to hear your conclusions, having taken evidence and looked at this, and to respond appropriately to the recommendations you may choose to make around that.

Q130 Bob Russell: There is a massive problem here. Mr Winnick has put forward a very simple solution to deal with it. I put forward a second simple solution which any man or woman on the Peckham Omnibus would immediately realise was a way of resolving it, namely, why do you not use the 2006 Companies Act to restrict the use of the title "college" to legitimate institutions, legitimate institutions which have been registered. It is very simple. Why not go for a simple solution instead of trying to find complicated reasons not to do it?

Kevin Brennan: Mr Russell has asked exactly the same question that I asked of my officials when I first started looking at this. There is a case to look at that.

Q131 Chairman: What was their answer?

Kevin Brennan: Their answer was "You may wish to look at that Minister, if that is your view".

Q132 Bob Russell: Yes, Minister.

Kevin Brennan: Yes, Minister was the answer. There are terms which are protected, as I am sure the Committee is aware, like "university", I think even the term "institute" might be protected; I will have to check that. It does seem to me that on looking at it from the point of view of a man or woman on the Clapham Omnibus it does not seem logical that the term "university" should be protected but that "college" should not be protected. So what I can say to the Committee is that I am happy and I will undertake to look at this again in the context of the 2006 Companies Act and there is an opportunity in the autumn for us to consider. I do want to consider the implications before committing myself to anything in relation to this. It is a point well made and one which needs to be looked at very carefully and I undertake to do that.

Q133 Mr Winnick: Do not let Sir Humphrey stop you.

Kevin Brennan: I shall try my best.

Q134 Bob Russell: I think the Winnick resolution to this problem of official registers and only people on the official register being able to use the word "college" is so straightforward and simple that I am sure both Mr Winnick and myself are happy to allow our names to be attached to that resolution.

Kevin Brennan: What I should say is that of course it would not be retrospective, so we still have that issue to consider and we would not want it in any way to impinge upon organisations which legitimately use the term "college" in their title, including schools, for example. It would not do anything of that kind but it would for the future potentially, if we chose to go down this path, protect that term.

Q135 Bob Russell: I am pretty confident that Sir Humphrey could come up with sufficient words to deal with that additional issue just raised. How can you ensure closer working between the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Home Office to close what are not loopholes but are yawning chasms, as we have discovered while we have been taking evidence?

Kevin Brennan: We do work very closely together and the new department - and I will certainly commit to this Committee - should work very closely with the Home Office in terms of picking up intelligence, passing that on. There is a body called the Joint Education Task Force, which has representation from the Home Office, representation from my department, representation from the sector itself on it in which these issues can be discussed.

Q136 Chairman: When did it last meet?

Kevin Brennan: I cannot answer that; I have only been in post for the last few days. I can certainly provide the Committee with that information. May I just say something to follow on from what Mr Russell asked me earlier, because I think it is important? One of the implications, if we did go down the path of protecting the word "college", would be something which I think Mr Winnick was referring to which is that would then lead to a necessity for some sort of accreditation for organisations which did have the term "college" in their title. As well as undertaking to look at whether we can do something about protecting the word "college" I will also undertake at the same time to look into how we might then make that a reality in terms of accrediting those institutions which are allowed to use that term and that would have to be an integral part of examining the protection of the word itself.

Q137 Bob Russell: I am sure there is a way. After all, if Eaton College can be registered as a charity, then anything in the world is possible.

Kevin Brennan: That is a matter for the Charity Commission rather than for me.

Q138 Bob Russell: So as we can be satisfied that the new minister is very much on the case, the urgency, the determination to deal with this. What action do you intend taking to stamp out or deal with people who are offering courses which are not legitimate?

Kevin Brennan: As I have just indicated, there are powers in place already to deal with it and new powers which are coming into force as part of the Companies Act. There are powers in place already in relation to the use of trading standards legislation and in the criminal law in relation to fraud and where matters are reported to Trading Standards or to the police, there can currently be investigations. In the autumn, under the Companies Act, a new offence comes into force which is the offence of carrying on business under a seriously misleading name. That new offence can be used to prosecute bogus institutions of this kind and on top of that, as I have already indicated to the Committee, I am happy to look at the issue of protecting the word "college" without committing myself to any course of action at this stage and also the implications that has for accreditation.

Q139 David T C Davies: Congratulations by the way on your new post. Do you share Universities UK's concerns about the Accreditation Service for International Colleges?

Kevin Brennan: I have read about their concern in your evidence. Of course this is a body which was appointed by the Home Office to be one of the bodies to accredit organisations which will go onto the new United Kingdom Borders Agency register of institutions which can sponsor students from outside the EEA. My understanding is that under the new system Ofsted oversees those organisations and that the UK Borders Agency are currently undertaking a review of those accredited organisations on the list right now and that that is due to report shortly. Probably at this stage, rather than me speculating on the basis simply of what I have read from your evidence, it would be better to hear what they have to say when they undertake that review.

Q140 David T C Davies: That is absolutely fair. I had a long conversation with them about this as well. One of the points they raised with me is that they do not get the information on the number of students who are enrolled at a college. I think I quote exactly when I say that they told me that if they had that information that would solve 90% of the problems because a college which is set up to teach six people is obviously going to look very different from one which is set up to teach 600. They do not get that information. Following on from Mr Russell's point, would you tend to agree on the surface that that is a sensible suggestion, that they should have that information and it should be readily available?

Kevin Brennan: Obviously that information would be extremely useful to have. I cannot speculate at this point on that particular organisation itself until I have the report.

Q141 David T C Davies: No, but in principle does that sound to you a reasonable suggestion for accreditation bodies?

Kevin Brennan: It does.

Q142 David T C Davies: Another suggestion is that where accreditation bodies report suspicions about a college and I think that ASIC have reported about ten out of 200 that they suspected, there does not appear to be very much feedback from UK border authorities so accreditation bodies do not know whether or not the information they are giving is being acted upon, is relevant or whether they are barking up the wrong tree. Bearing in mind that you have only been here a week or two, can you see that is a reasonable argument on the surface? It seems reasonable to me.

Kevin Brennan: It would be sensible for me to look at that in a bit more detail than I have so far before I commit myself to a position on it. Clearly the purpose of the accreditation agency is to give the UK Borders Agency an indication of whether or not they think that an institution is a proper education establishment and one which is offering good quality courses for the students who are applying to come in from overseas. Clearly one would anticipate that under those circumstances the UK Borders Agency would feed back in some way when they receive that information, but I think I need to look at it in a bit more detail before saying anything further.

Q143 David T C Davies: Finally, and equally as importantly, could you look at another issue which accreditation bodies raised with me which is that they almost always have to give notice because of these sorts of accreditation that they undertake. Without going into lots of detail, they have to give a certain amount of notice. I accept the argument they put to me for giving notice for one part of the accreditation but what I fail to see is why they cannot follow that up with unannounced visits subsequently. To me it is absolutely ludicrous that very few unannounced visits take place to these colleges and that when unannounced visits do take place they very often reveal concerning information. Would you not agree that, as part of the accreditation process, there may well have to be an announced visit but it will have to be followed up at some point during the school term, college term, with an unannounced one.

Kevin Brennan: I do not want to stray too far into the Home Office's responsibilities and outside my own, but my understanding is that in any process there ought to be both announced and unannounced inspections. I could not comment on the detail of what is the right balance without looking at it and checking my worries.

Q144 Mrs Cryer: Congratulations Minister on your new appointment. I just want to move away from bogus colleges to proper colleges and universities which take in students from overseas. They have apparently determined that they will boycott new rules on monitoring overseas students' attendance and they voted at their annual conference to boycott these checks on foreign students, arguing that such "snooping" - a loaded word - would place a strain on the relationship between staff and students. If students are not turning up, it is not going to place a strain on a relationship which does not exist. I wondered what your attitude would be and what you are going to do if they carry this threat out not to do the checks.

Kevin Brennan: The first point to make is that that is not yet mandatory and will not become mandatory until the new IT system at the Home Office is in place which will enable the Home Office to be able to check and link up with the universities' systems. However, I have to say that I do not think it is unreasonable, when students are coming in from outside the EEA to study in this country, that the sponsoring institution be required to indicate that they are actually turning up and are actually attending their courses and being students, which is what that institution sponsored them to come into the country to do and is presumably receiving fees for at the same time. That is even before you consider the other issues, the Home Office issues around making sure we are checking who is coming into the country and what they are doing whilst they are students. I do not think it is an unreasonable requirement.

Q145 Chairman: This is actually quite restricted compared with what we have heard the Secretary of State saying. You are saying that it is all about checking whether they come to courses, they attend and they are completing their courses. That is all. No intelligence gathering at all.

Kevin Brennan: It is extremely important that that is checked and that they are bona fide students.

Q146 Chairman: But that is it.

Kevin Brennan: I am not aware of the detail of what might be required beyond that that the universities might be concerned about. That is really a matter for the Home Office. However, in relation to making sure that students turn up and are attending their courses and are bona fide students that is a minimum requirement that any institution should have to follow and I hope that, in discussing this in detail, the concerns which are obviously there amongst university teachers about this can be ironed out.

Q147 Mrs Cryer: Do you think there is some misunderstanding? Do you think they are thinking in terms of what the Chairman has just said when in fact all the department are asking is that we actually check that they do turn up for these courses?

Kevin Brennan: I suspect that there may be some misunderstanding in relation to this and that in discussing it, it may be possible to clear that up. I do understand university teachers want to do their job and teach their students. On the other hand the sponsoring institution has a clear duty, it seems to me, to make sure that students they are sponsoring to come into the UK are genuine students and are genuinely attending their courses.

Q148 Mrs Cryer: Should they persist in this attitude that they will not report where students are simply not turning up, what sort of position do you think your department may take? For instance, would you allow them still to use their position in order to promote a student visa for these people, if they are not prepared to do their bit on it? I am not sure why they should be allowed to promote student visas for that college if they are not prepared to let the organisation know that these students are actually turning up.

Kevin Brennan: Clearly it is preferable to try to resolve the disagreement that there is through appropriate discussion in the appropriate way. However, ultimately you are right that at the end of the day it is possible that an institution would not be allowed to be a sponsoring institution if it were not willing to make those sorts of checks.

Q149 Chairman: You are clearly very concerned about this issue; it was brought to your attention on day one, as you say, as the new minister responsible. You talked about looking at it and coming back with some further proposals. Do we have a timetable as to when you are proposing to do this? Obviously the Committee feels that this is a very serious issue, that the Home Office is only part of the issue which is the entry clearance aspect. The actual education institutions are under your department, but it is only half the battle if they are prevented from coming in, because there are obviously other students who are attending courses. We also have the problem of the students who are here already, who are seeking to extend their visas at the end of the period that they have their visas for. Do we have a timetable as to when this might be done?

Kevin Brennan: The logical timetable to follow would be related to the implementation of regulations around the 2006 Companies Act relating to what we discussed about possible protection of the term "college" and other measures around accreditation. That is due to happen early in the autumn. I cannot commit to an exact timescale because I have only just told officials this is what I want them to do, but that is what we will be looking to try to achieve.

Q150 Chairman: I can give you my timetable. The Committee will publish its report in the week commencing 13 July.

Kevin Brennan: That is very helpful and I am sure it will be very useful to what we are trying to do.

Chairman: Minister, thank you very much for giving evidence and for the assurances you have given us today. Thank you very much.