MR DENIS O'CONNOR CBE, QPM

21 APRIL 2009

  Q20  Mr Winnick: Obviously it did not impress you. My question is: do you consider what you saw as incompatible with British policing?

  Mr O'Connor: What I saw was unacceptable.

  Mr Winnick: Thank you very much.

  Chairman: Thank you. Can I move on to Karen Buck.

  Q21  Ms Buck: I think every sensible person would agree that there is a difficult balance to be struck in policing demonstrations, particularly when there can be violence in those demonstrations, and accountability, as you have said, is absolutely the key. I just want to press you a little bit further on this issue of accountability because we have seen and heard about the evidence of numbers being covered up or removed and we need to understand why that has happened. We have also heard people, and I have had constituents who have come to me, say that when they have asked police officers for identification or to know who they were and their numbers, that information has also been refused. We need to understand how this happens and why this happens. Will you be looking at what the police version is to try and understand why it is that that culture appears to have taken hold to some degree, what the management processes are that allow numbers to be covered up and concealed, and why it is that numbers can actually be removed physically in the first place, what the guidance is to police officers when they are asked by members of the public who they are and what their numbers are. Finally, there is an increasing concern, looking into the future, about the way there will be a response to amateur photography, or professional photography for that matter and media photography, but certainly to the phone cameras and so forth. What guidance is being given to the police in response to this and will you ensure that in your investigation you will also look forward to make sure that there is not a risk of mission creep, where some police officers might take inappropriate action to stop members of the public using their cameras for identification purposes?

  Mr O'Connor: I will look to see what guidance exists. I cannot think of any good rationale in relation to the issue about wearing numerals. There is not a good rationale for it. I will look to the guidance and we will be talking to officers at different levels to see if we can establish, in your terms, why that occurred in several instances, when it is the last thing you would expect to occur, particularly in circumstances like that. We will obviously make available the guidance about police numerals available to people. I think that particular bit is a matter of individual behaviour. Do you want me to deal with the photography issue?

  Q22  Ms Buck: On that very point, the reason I was pressing the question, there was some media coverage that said that police officers have themselves stated that false evidence is given against them, that allegations are made against them on the basis of numbers, I think the word was "career destroying" evidence can be given for people, and that sometimes they are taking a decision, clearly unacceptably in all cases, that concealing their identity will some way of protection against public complaints. I just wondered what you thought of that and whether that is something that you would seek to address?

  Mr O'Connor: I have heard that rationale before. I was not impressed with it then and I doubt that I will be impressed with it now, but I will look at the issue to see whether that is still the rationale or there is some other explanation for it. In relation to photography, I think yes, a number of people see that that is a point of tension and difficulty and we will address that issue.

  Q23  Patrick Mercer: Mr O'Connor, I watched the Royal Ulster Constabulary struggling with this issue about personal numbers in very sensitive counter-terrorist operations over many tours of Northern Ireland. They insisted that discipline was properly maintained inside their force and it was. I find your answer hugely reassuring, thank you. Have you been keeping a weather eye on what has been happening with the Tamil demonstrations over the past few days?

  Mr O'Connor: I have kept an eye on what has been happening.

  Q24  Patrick Mercer: I have only seen one day's worth, and there are more promised, but yesterday it would appear that the centre of London was completely jammed by what appeared to be—and this is an inexpert view—illegal action by demonstrators who were not cleared by the police officers present. There appears to me to be an anomaly between what happened at the G20 and what has happened and is happening with the Tamils. Your comments, please?

  Mr O'Connor: I think the environment, the context for the G20 was that it was known that some protesters were going to use any and whatever means to make their point, including damaging property. There was a belief and there was intelligence to that effect. As I understand it, in relation to the Tamil demonstration, this is about a cry from the heart, a plea about what is going on in another land, where there was, as far as I understand it, no intelligence about any direct intention to damage or particularly disrupt a section of society. Of course, as we can see, disruption has been one of the collateral effects of what has happened.

  Q25  Chairman: If you leave the politics to one side, I think Mr Mercer was concerned about the policing aspects.

  Mr O'Connor: Indeed and I think the policing—the point I was coming to—tends to follow the intelligence in terms of the treatment that they provide to different events. I heard of the criticism or observations about the Tamil demonstrations. What you are seeing is the police trying to strike a balance between some different scenarios there and it is a difficult balance to strike. No doubt they will take note of what people have said about disruption and find another way in which to deal with the Tamil to allow protest, but without undue disruption to London.

  Q26  Chairman: Have you received any complaints?

  Mr O'Connor: I have not.

  Q27  Patrick Mercer: Of course the law is not an ass, and of course there must be flexibility in terms of police response, anything else would just be blunt and stupid, but there must be consistency, and if the law has been broken then the police must stop that law being broken in the future. From an amateur's point of view, that did not seem to me to be happening yesterday when I was watching it.

  Mr O'Connor: I did see that there was a significant disruptive effect. I am reasonably confident that the Metropolitan Police will have learned from that disruptive effect and will reduce it.

  Q28  Martin Salter: Will your inquiry, Mr O'Connor, also look at those people who were on the receiving end of some of the violence from the demonstrators in order to get a balanced view? Secondly, on the other side of the equation, why is a police officer ever allowed on duty without his or her numbers? These are not optional things. A uniformed constable is identifiable by his or her uniform. You cannot choose which bits of the uniform you wear. You should not be on duty without the numbers any more than you should be on duty without your trousers.

  Mr O'Connor: I think you put it rather well. I suppose the fact is that the numerals can come off just as easily as they come on, I suppose if somebody has the wrong intention or whatever, they can come off.

  Q29  Martin Salter: They are Velcro-ed at the moment are they not and they should not be?

  Mr O'Connor: There is a mix depending on which officers are available. The bottom line of this is we can all agree that it is not acceptable and it is a matter of grip and control to deal with that. In relation to being on the receiving end, I have made arrangements with Mr Hardwick, and through some other groups and individuals, to receive their views and their experiences so that we can use that to help us ground some of our thinking about the effects overall of these tactics.

  Q30  Bob Russell: Mr O'Connor, Chairman, so that it is not misinterpreted at a later date that I was soft on the police, I declare that my son-in-law is a police officer, albeit not in London but elsewhere. I need to put the naive question so we have it on the record: can you confirm that some of the protesters were not peaceful?

  Mr O'Connor: I can and I think you can see that.

  Q31  Bob Russell: The reason I say that is because all the questions so far have been somewhat one-sided. Can you confirm that there was an element of provocation from some protesters?

  Mr O'Connor: On the small amount of evidence that I have seen so far, yes.

  Q32  Bob Russell: And the last observation I would ask you is that if any still photographs are produced in evidence that you do not take those in isolation and you seek the before, during and after photographs. The reason I say that, Chairman, is that I recall the Brighton live animal exports protests of 14 years ago and a photograph that went all the way around the world of a police officer about to kick the head of a granny sitting in the road whereas the before, during and after photographs showed that police officer very carefully walking through the protesters in a deliberate attempt not to cause any injury, so one photograph in isolation can be a distortion.

  Mr O'Connor: I think, Mr Russell, you are right and the point I made earlier on is that we are looking at snapshots. Our intention, to a degree in partnership with the IPCC, is to look at the event in the round

  Q33  Gwyn Prosser: Just one more point on the issue of numbers on uniforms. Is it a clear rule which can be disciplined or is it guidance? Secondly, at what rank does it cease? In other words, do inspectors and ranks above have to wear identification?

  Mr O'Connor: It applies to constables and sergeants. Inspectors wear pips. Some forces have name badges and some do not for people above the rank of sergeant. The rules are not clear on it.

  Q34  Gwyn Prosser: As a rule rather than as guidance?

  Mr O'Connor: There is not a rule about wearing name badges universally.

  Q35  Gwyn Prosser: Will you recommend that it becomes a rule universally and will you extend it to ranks above sergeant?

  Mr O'Connor: Can I say that I will consider that in the course of our review.

  Q36  David Davies: Like my colleague here I was also present but working as a special constable, although not actually at the site of the protest. I am grateful that you are going to make sure that your inquiry does not simply take photographs as evidence but looks at what happened before and afterwards. Can I also ask if you are going to look at the effect in terms of pressure which hours of verbal abuse and being targeted by missiles can have on individuals? No matter how well trained they actually are, it does have a physical and mental effect on people? Will your inquiry take that into account? Will you also be looking at the possible, but unknown, effect of allowing disorder to spread and the likelihood that many of the people present, although not directly taking part in violent protest, were watching to see what the police reaction would be and demonstrated a willingness to get involved if they felt the police were not taking action against them?

  Mr O'Connor: I would confirm yet again that we will look at the whole album, as it were, rather than a particular picture. We will look at the broader context. Members may well be aware that the Metropolitan Police deals with 5,000 to 6,000 public order events a year and they deal with about 12 which involve more than 1,500 officers, so we are talking about a lot of the concern as generated from the coverage of this particular event. We will look at the context. I did say earlier putting people in close proximity with others, whether it is members of the public or officers, in tight, sweaty, difficult situations obviously has a big risk associated with it. I can personally confirm it, having been in that situation myself, which is why I made the point about there is a policy decision not to put a distance between the police, and we need to remind ourselves that we are making a choice which has some potential consequences.

  Q37  David Davies: Can you also confirm that if a member of the public who appears to be angry and appears to present a threat, no matter what their size or their sex, approaches a police officer, that officer has a right to say, "Get back, get back," and if they continue to move within an arm's reach, that officer has a right to push them backwards if they perceive a threat? That is a fact, is it not, and I have done that myself?

  Mr O'Connor: There is a tactic that officers are taught to say "keep back2. It is generally regarded as a defensive tactic using reasonable force.

  Margaret Moran: Just following on from the question that Mr Mercer raised, looking at the terms reference, you are looking at the overall direction of public order goals and strategies, and you have mentioned tactics. Would you in that context look at the policing by Bedfordshire Police of the recent march of the Royal Anglian Brigade through Luton, given that many people, and certainly I have had a huge response not just from my constituents but from across the country, felt the police were taking an overly PC approach to the well-known group Al-Muhajiroun who on many occasions have deliberately disrupted events in order, many believe, to incite racial division and hatred within the town. Many of my constituents and others cannot understand why the police did not take action against them for those perceived offences rather than those who were seeking to object to their intervention.

  Patrick Mercer: Hear hear!

  Q38  Chairman: Mr O'Connor, are you visiting Luton during this inquiry?

  Mr O'Connor: Not immediately, Chairman, but it is our intention to look at the guidance that the Police Service have nationally on protest policing as part of what we do, and whether that guidance properly sets out the context and the considerations that apply which differ, dare I say it, in relation to marches, in relation to climate camp arrangements, in relation to industrial action. We are going to look to see whether that guidance matches the times that we are in.

  Q39  Tom Brake: On the subject of the media I see that under your terms of references liaison with the media is something that you are going to cover. Would you look please at whether the protocol which I understand exists between the police and journalists at these sorts of events was adhered to. My understanding is that journalists should be allowed to leave the kettle, for instance, if they are contained within a cordon, and if they produce appropriate identification. That was clearly not the case at the G20. Is my understanding of the protocol correct?

  Mr O'Connor: There is a protocol and we will be talking to journalists, some of whom have already made contact with us, about their experiences.