UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 34 - ix

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

WELSH AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

GLOBALISATION AND ITS IMPACT ON WALES

Tuesday 22 January 2008

MR JOHN WALTER JONES, MR PHIL WILLIAMS and MR TIM HARTLEY

MS ELIN HAF GRUFFYDD JONES

Evidence heard in Public Questions 1909 - 1979

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee

on Tuesday 22 January 2008

Members present

Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair

Mr Martyn Jones

Albert Owen

Mark Pritchard

Hywel Williams

Mark Williams

________________

Memorandum submitted by S4C Authority

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Mr John Walter Jones, Chair, Mr Phil Williams, Secretary, S4C Authority and Mr Tim Hartley, Head of Corporate Affairs, S4C, gave evidence.

Q1909 Chairman: Bore da; good morning and welcome to the Welsh Affairs Committee. For the record could you introduce yourselves, please?

Mr Jones: Yes. I am John Walter Jones, Chair of the S4C Authority. This is Phil Williams, Secretary of the S4C Authority, and this is Tim Hartley, Head of Corporate Affairs S4C.

Q1910 Chairman: As I said, welcome, croeso, to this session, which, as you know, is dealing with globalisation and its impact on Wales. Could I begin on that very theme? What do you think, from the perspective of S4C, are the greatest challenges and opportunities posed by globalisation to broadcasting and the creative industries, and particularly challenges and opportunities for S4C?

Mr Jones: Thank you for the welcome, Chairman; diolch yn fawr am eich croeso. I do not propose to take the Committee through the written evidence we have submitted. I make the assumption that it has been or it will be read at some date during your deliberations. I think we have tried to set out there where we are in relation to this word globalisation because I think it is a word that affects the whole equality of broadcasting, and S4C is not immune to all the effects of globalisation in terms of technology and everything else which affects every broadcaster. The key difference of course between S4C and other broadcasters within the United Kingdom is the fact that our core business is to do with the Welsh language and we cannot ignore that. But that does not in any way diminish the effects of globalisation on the product, i.e. broadcasting in Wales through the medium of the Welsh language to the people of Wales because the challenges faced by all broadcasters affect S4C but we have the added challenge of having to face those challenges in terms of the Welsh language. If you go back 25 years - and S4C was 25 years old last year - there were four channels. I am sure that everyone who appears before the Committee is going to say this sentence more than once and you are fed up with hearing it, but there were four channels and that was the choice. We now live in a world where there are 400 or more channels and therefore the choice is enormous and in that climate of 400 challenges and channels S4C, through the medium of the Welsh language, might look and sound very, very small and minute, but everything which affects every broadcaster affects S4C. The aspirations of the viewer are the same, despite the medium of the broadcasting, i.e. the Welsh language; and the expectations of the viewer are the same, and we are there to serve the viewer. We are accountable in statute to the Commons, through members of Parliament, but at the end of the day the greatest accountability which we as an authority and as a channel have is to the viewer; if we do not supply what they want then they might break as a body and we lose them. So that is the greatest challenge, i.e. facing all the challenges of globalisation in terms of technology and everything else in Wales through the medium of the Welsh language and boiling it down to a channel which serves the people of Wales through the medium of the Welsh language.

Q1911 Chairman: I think you have answered my second question, but can I put it in this way? All public service broadcasting faces those kinds of challenges but there is a particular challenge and, in a way, a threat to the survival of the Welsh language channel, with new broadcasting technology and the increasing global broadcasting environment. Is that a fair summation of how do you deal with that particular unique problem really?

Mr Jones: I will ask my colleagues to come on to the technology and the use we make of different platforms. We are duty bound to serve the people of Wales, the population of Wales using everything that we have to hand in terms of the armoury we have to reach them. In other words, all platforms, not just analogue and digital but everything that is available to us. Not just in Wales because we can now reach outside Wales and indeed outside of the United Kingdom where rights allow us to do so. So the audience is no longer contained to Wales, it exists outside the boundaries of Wales and therefore we need to reach them and we are reaching them because on an average week about 130,000 people outside Wales tune into S4C, and that is a fair figure; and a high percentage are actually Welsh speakers who live outside Wales, so we do have a duty towards them and they are tuning in. But the use we make of technology, I will ask Tim to expand on that, if I may, because we have to reach them through all available platforms.

Mr Hartley: It is interesting you say that the challenges facing a Welsh language broadcaster are similar and yet dissimilar to those facing all other broadcasters. We find ourselves as one of more than 400 channels available in the UK but in fact we are one of more than thousands upon thousands of different platforms where you can access material. As the Chair said, we have many viewers outside of Wales because we are available on Sky satellite across the whole of the UK. We have also made ourselves available through the website - video on demand; you can catch up for 35 days after a programme has been aired on the channel. We also have live streaming; we also have a contract with a company called Inuk and we are available on Internet Protocol television. So in terms of availability and cover we see that S4C is not simply a matter for Wales but, as the Chair has mentioned, for people outside Wales in the UK and even worldwide where the rights allow us to broadcast. So in that sense we see ourselves as part of a British, a UK, a European and a worldwide broadcasting environment. What we have to do is to make sure that in those thousands of opportunities to view and to consume content we stand out. How do we do that, how do we make it? It is by making our programmes excellent, innovative and our services modern so that people will actually say when they come across the S4C content, "That is good content; it happens to be in the Welsh language." We try to make all our programmes accessible by subtitling them in English, so 80% of our programmes in the peak hours are subtitled in English. That means that people can enjoy our programmes wherever they are and whatever language they speak. Interestingly, looking at the figures some 33% of the viewers for the Welsh language hours are not Welsh speakers themselves; they may be parents with children who are learning Welsh, it may be that they are learners themselves, or it may simply be that they prefer to watch S4C rather than the BBC, ITV channel 4, Sky, QVC, whatever channel is available to them. They are tuning in to watch us because of the excellence of our output rather than for the fact that it is simply in the Welsh language.

Q1912 Albert Owen: Good morning, first of all. The broad thrust of our inquiry is globalisation, the impact on Wales - that is the title - but also the other side of that is obviously localism and regionalism. So moving on to Welsh programming and in a regional dimension how important do you think the regional delivery is to the people of Wales?

Mr Jones: I think it is vital because I mentioned the audience outside Wales, obviously it exists, it is there and they are served by the programmes we broadcast; but the bulk of S4C's audience is within Wales. I think that we think global and act local and that is very important. S4C does allow choice for the viewer in Wales because we commission from three main sources - the BBC, ITV and the independent sector. We do offer choice in terms of output amongst all genres, from news to current affairs to variety and light entertainment. Over 25 years I think that S4C has done - even though I have only been Chair for two years - a wonderful job in terms of the non-Welsh speaker; we owe a duty to the non-Welsh speaker. Ours is not a middle aged, middle class Welsh speaking audience; it is a bilingual audience and we try to serve that bilingual audience and that is going to become increasingly important post-digital switchover when all S4C output will effectively be through the medium of the Welsh language. We must keep building the bridges that we have been building over 25 years to make sure that the audience that we have nurtured stays with S4C and that we use the technology, the programming, especially sport and music that transcend language, in a sense, to bring the non-Welsh speaker into the fold of the S4C family, and that they want to watch the programmes because they enjoy the programming and through subtitling they do have access to Welsh medium programmes and they enjoy it.

Q1913 Albert Owen: That was a very comprehensive answer and I am sure that you will be asked questions later on some of the points you raised. I just wanted to concentrate really on the sourcing that you talk about from the BBC and ITV and regional programming. You state in your memorandum that that is under threat, i.e. the number of hours that, in particular, ITV will be asked to provide regional programmes. How will that affect your total production and what do you think can be done to protect that important regionalism that you have talked about?

Mr Jones: ITV like the independent sector has access to the S4C producer websites and they can make bids for programming. Whatever happens to ITV in the future, whatever decisions are taken which affect the regional role of ITV I would hope that ITV would still be gaining commissions from S4C as it has in the past. I cannot comment and I cannot see that far into the future but I would not think - and I would hope - that anything that happens to it would have a negative effect on what we get from ITV, which over 25 years has been invaluable.

Q1914 Albert Owen: I know that you cannot look into the future - I wish politicians could as well as programmers like yourselves - but the actual threat is there and you mention it, the fact that there is a contraction by the ones that you source from with regional programmes. What can you do to protect yourselves? You tell me how you actually acquire it now but what can be done to protect that in the future so that the Welsh public get good regionalism?

Mr Jones: We acquire programmes from ITV as we do from the rest of the independent sector on a bids basis; in other words, they compete for what is available in terms of resources and in terms of programme ideas. They are submitted, they are considered and then the staff at S4C hand out the contracts for the programmes. I would hope, being a commercial organisation, that ITV in the future would still bid for programme making for S4C; in other words, that it would wish to do so. I do not think that whatever happened to ITV News, for example, would have a direct effect on its ability to serve the needs of S4C as it has in the 25 years because that service to S4C is a commercial undertaking, which has been in existence and I would hope would continue. They and the BBC, for example, provide us with current affairs programming and I would hope that would continue because we need the plurality because the viewing public needs the choice and it is now getting that choice, and I hope that the choice, whatever happens to ITV, would continue in the future.

Q1915 Albert Owen: But there is no mechanism that protects you and makes you any different.

Mr Jones: There is nothing which protects us. At the end of the day the public money which we receive is spent on programming and we commission the best available from whatever source.

Q1916 Mr Jones: Good morning; bore da.

Mr Jones: Bore da.

Q1917 Mr Jones: Mr Jones, you have just touched on the fact that after the switchover, I think you have just said in fact that all your programming will be wholly in Welsh, but in your memorandum, in the appendix in the third paragraph down, you said that it will "remain a mainly Welsh language channel". There is some contradiction there; could you explain?

Mr Jones: No, it is not a contradiction. The public money we get from DCMS is for Welsh language programming and that money is there to be spent on Welsh language programming. If we are called upon to produce bilingual programmes or English language programmes then give us the cash and we will produce the programmes; but the money we get is for a specific purpose and it is earmarked for that.

Q1918 Mr Jones: Recently Chris Bryant MP, one of our colleagues, published a paper on broadcasting; I do not know if you have read?

Mr Jones: I have indeed, many times!

Q1919 Mr Jones: I have not but I am told that it actually warns against S4C becoming a Welsh only channel for fear of it becoming marginalised. Do you agree with that?

Mr Jones: I do not think that S4C will become marginalised; it will be the majority channel for Welsh speakers, those who are learning Welsh and, as I said, I hope for those who want access into the programming of S4C because it is high quality programming. I do not think that we will become marginalised because over 25 years we have played more than the role of the public service broadcaster; we have been involved in language planning. I know that possibly, other than Mr Hywel Williams, language planning is not something that this Committee has considered or discussed in the past, but S4C's role in that respect has been an important one. It is not laid down in statute but by the very nature of its being it has contributed a great deal to the furtherance of the Welsh language and that is the role which S4C will continue to do in the future. Especially if I may mention our plans for the children's channel; those are exciting, they will happen, hopefully, and in global terms the influences on children and young people are enormous and we want the children and young people of Wales to be able to face the challenges of globalisation through the medium of the Welsh language.

Q1920 Mr Jones: You know of course that BBC 2 Wales is disappearing post switchover; do you think it would be appropriate for S4C to take up the slack there with programmes relating to Wales and produced in Wales, but not in Welsh, if you were asked and you were paid?

Mr Jones: Again, if asked, if given the cheque, if the capacity was there then we certainly have the capacity to do it. But, as I said, within the existing budget the budget is there for a purpose and if we go beyond that budget then I am afraid that we could not contain it. We are containing the initial expenditure on the children's channel within existing resources; we are not asking for more money. Even though it is very, very exciting we are containing it within existing resources.

Q1921 Albert Owen: Can I just come in on the back of that? I think there is some contradiction actually. You are saying that you support plurality and all this and yet here is a niche, here is an opportunity where there is diminishment of regional programming post switchover and you say that you want to broaden your appeal and obviously increase the number of viewers you have. Why in your planning have you not considered going after that niche?

Mr Jones: As I tried to explain to Mr Martyn Jones, the money is there for a purpose. I agree that the niche is there and if the need is there also then, given the additional resources, we can fill that need or respond to that need, but within the budget we get and in the terms of the money we receive from the DCMS we are there to provide programming in Welsh. Not just programming about Wales, we are a public service broadcaster and we want our programming to make an impact; we are there to entertain, educate ...

Mr Hartley: A broad range of high quality programming.

Mr Jones: Inform, educate and entertain, that is what we are there for. We can do that in the Welsh language and if anybody wants to go beyond that remit through the medium of English then, as I said, give us the money and we will do it.

Q1922 Albert Owen: The point I am making is - and I am sure you have done a survey of your viewers - many of your viewers watch S4C but also watch BBC 2 Wales and that is going, so surely there is an opportunity for you as a predominantly Welsh-based broadcaster to look at that?

Mr Jones: Certainly there is scope to look at everything - nothing is ruled in, nothing is ruled out; I am just saying that within the budget it is earmarked for a purpose and beyond that purpose we need extra finance.

Q1923 Chairman: Can you be a little more precise about the post switchover situation? You seem to imply that it all depended on, "If you give us the money we will do this or that"; where is the policy though? Are you saying that it is going to be the same kind of mix or could you end up, for want of a better description, as a kind of Tinopolis writ large - that you would go wherever the money is?

Mr Jones: When we talk about English language programming on S4C to date what I am talking of really is the Channel 4 programmes which we have been rescheduling over 25 years, which was the wraparound around our Welsh language output. They, post switchover, will not be broadcast; they will not be on S4C, you can get them on Channel 4, as indeed you can today. So we have lost the comfort, if you like, of the English language programming. English language programming on S4C produced by S4C for S4C would be something new; that is where we go beyond the budget because the budget is there for a purpose, i.e. the Welsh language programming.

Q1924 Hywel Williams: I think there is the danger of confusion of your role, that is whether you are a Welsh language broadcaster or are you the national broadcaster for Wales. What I get from you is that actually you have a specific Welsh language brief and you are not a national broadcaster. People who suggest that English language programming from Wales might be under this are confusing those roles, although you would be quite happy to be a national broadcaster, I am sure, were you funded adequately!

Mr Jones: I would be happy to be anything if adequately funded, is the short answer to the question.

Q1925 Mark Williams: You referred to the children's channel and it is very exciting and I know that you have been lobbying hard and your consultation exercise got widespread support. In your memorandum, though, you note that this could potentially displace coverage of the National Assembly. So my questions revolve really on how you are reconciling that public service, which is critical, I think we all agree on that, with the very exciting project involving young children?

Mr Jones: What I have said about the National Assembly and the broadcasting of the Assembly is I think that S4C does have a public duty - not a public service broadcasting duty but a public duty - to the Assembly, which that it has discharged from day one of the Assembly in terms of the broadcasting. What we have said is that possibly with the advent of the children's channel, i.e. a new service post digital switchover, we will need to look at the way in which the Assembly is covered on S4C, but I have gone on record as saying that I am not going to be the Chairman that pulls the plug on coverage of the Assembly. The exact nature of that coverage post switchover and come the children's channel remains to be discussed. I think that in the lively period of the consultation everyone supported the advent and the thoughts and the proposal for a children's channel and no one objected to the fact that we would need to discuss with the Assembly - and with the BBC of course - the nature of the coverage come the children's channel.

Q1926 Mark Williams: What options are available? I think in your consultation you give us three options there and option two, the broadcasting of National Assembly proceedings ceases and is replaced by a new children's channel, uninterrupted, seven days a week. What other options would you look at to ensure that accessibility on proceedings of the National Assembly is maintained?

Mr Hartley: I think there are many creative ways of looking at the way that you perhaps combine elements of the National Assembly and the children's channel. In fact we talk about a children's channel but it is a series of children's services; we define three very distinct audiences - the pre-school, the junior school and then the young teens - and it may be that certain elements of those services could be launched without having to go on to S4C 2. For example, capacity may be available on S4C Digidol during the daytime hours, which would not be a problem for us. So it is not quite as black and white as perhaps that option makes clear. So, as I said, there are many creative ways of looking at it and also the coverage of the Assembly, "gavel-to-gavel", as it is known, it may be that the service which is offered by the Assembly itself across the Internet may be something to look at as well.

Q1927 Mark Williams: Such as the Scottish model.

Mr Hartley: Holyrood.tv; yes.

Q1928 Mark Williams: What are the viewing figures, as a matter interest, of the National Assembly proceedings?

Mr Jones: Fairly low!

Q1929 Mark Williams: I suspected as much, but the principle none the less is enshrined ---

Mr Jones: It is not a question of viewing figures in terms of broadcasting the National Assembly; I think it is a service in terms of democracy in Wales and the growth of devolution as a project in Wales. I think that everyone, including S4C, has a duty at some point in advancing devolution as a concept in Wales.

Mark Williams: I think we would all agree on that very strongly, but equally if I reflect on my young family at home as well and I think of what Mr Hartley said about the different audiences and young children it is a critical one and there is a very important case for reconciling both those challenges.

Q1930 Hywel Williams: Coming on to the creative industries in Wales, could you give us a broad take on the prospects for survival and growth of the creative industries in Wales in the next five or ten years? How do you see it going?

Mr Jones: The Authority commissioned an impact study on the economic benefits of S4C last year and we were seen as a lean, fit machine contributing to the creation of 2,200 jobs in Wales and turning over a multiplier of £85 million within the Welsh economy, and I think you can see the effects of that multiplier effect in various parts of Wales. We do not commission programmes on a geographic basis, we commission programmes because we need the programming. Looking at your own constituency, looking at Albert Owen's constituency in Anglesey I sometimes have difficulty in working out what is Menai Bridge and what is the Rownd A Rownd Sstudio in Menai Bridge because it does have an impact on the local economy. In terms of the creative industries, I think that they are underplayed in Wales quite often because they do contribute to the economy and we have played our parts in what we have tried to do with the independent broadcasting sector in Wales. The Chairman mentioned one particular company in Llanelli, Tinopolis. We have encouraged independent sector producers to merge because we think that there is scope then for enhancement of the industry, of employment within the industry and of training within the industry. The Skillset are coming to the Committee in a couple of weeks' time and they can talk to you in detail about training, but that is an important element within the creative industry sphere in Wales' training. The BBC and ITV years ago used to involve themselves with training. We try to make sure that for every commission we hand out that there is an element of training attached to that commission to make sure that there are opportunities for training for the industry because it is an attractive industry and it does provide employment locally. I have seen a recent example in Mark Williams' constituency, in Aberaeron, where Boomerang have opened an office in Aberaeron, not just because of the commissions received from S4C but because they think that there is scope there for them to develop. These companies then develop not just on the back of S4C but they are now becoming not national but international and I think that is only good for the industry in Wales.

Q1931 Hywel Williams: I think you are jumping on to my next question in fact, how important is the placing of contracts from service public broadcasters to the development and growth of the independent sector itself? I assume you would say that it is absolutely crucial.

Mr Jones: It is crucial; it always has been. You know as well as I do the impact that S4C had in the early days in Caernarvon, for example, and what we received from the independent sector has been the backbone of the output and remains the backbone of the output. Apart from the hours which we get from the BBC, all S4C's commissioning comes from the independent sector. Of course, one thing which you must remember at all times is that you cannot buy original Welsh language programmes from anywhere else in the world; they have to be commissioned by S4C and they have to be produced for S4C - unlike other broadcasters we cannot go out there and buy Welsh language programming. We are the second, for example, biggest commissioner of children's programmes, original programming, in the United Kingdom. So we are very proud of that and when others are pulling out we are actually investing not just in the future of television but in the future of the Welsh language through our young people.

Q1932 Hywel Williams: Looking at the other side of that question to what extent have independent companies become less focused on Wales in the pursuit of international markets to the extent that we do?

Mr Hartley: To answer your question in the macro, so to speak. If you look at overall growth in the economy at around 3% and the creative industries at 5% Wales does have a very good news story to sing and dance about. We believe that sustainable growth is vital for those companies to expand and also from the point of view of S4C. If you have companies which are sustainable, which are longer lived and bigger they will give us economies of scale, they will give us more experience, a wider portfolio of programmes and skills and opportunities and, as the Chair has mentioned, most importantly that you are bedding in a skills base there for Wales. What we have done from S4C's point of view is to offer longer and bigger contracts to companies which gives them opportunities, if you like, to invest in staff, to invest in equipment so that they have a more sustainable future themselves. That in turn allows them to look for markets other than S4C, other than the domestic Welsh markets. So you are moving from a situation of dependent companies to truly independent companies, not dependent just on the public sector but independent in that they serve more than one master, that they are being commissioned from the likes of Sky, from European broadcasters, from the BBC and Channel 4 as well as from S4C. As I say, it gives them enhanced market experience and stimulates further growth, which can only be good in this high paid, high value job sector.

Q1933 Hywel Williams: The question to ask, however, is: is there a downside to this in any sense, in that there is less of a concentration on Wales and the matter of Wales, as it were? Perhaps to take it a little bit further - and it is certainly a hugely controversial thing - that with the growth of some companies there is on the adverse side that people who are very small producers are pulling out, and is there a downside in that respect?

Mr Jones: On that question of small producers pulling out, there are about five main large producing organisations in Wales in the independent sector. Within those five, half a dozen large companies there are between 30 and 40 what used to be small, independent companies working under a new banner, so they are there employed within the industry - they have not been lost to the industry - and they can now dispense with the chores of administration, they can concentrate on the creative and they are still out there producing, and because they are part of larger organisations they gain the experience which contracts from other directions, i.e. outside Wales, bring to those organisations and they create the opportunity to bring that expertise to Wales for the benefit of S4C and its viewers. So I think it is a win situation.

Q1934 Albert Owen: You have encroached really on what I wanted to ask. Hywel was talking about the downside and you were talking about the successes of going overseas and having these international markets and in your memorandum you cite some of these very successful winners abroad. What makes you attractive to a creative industry to come along to you and want to make programmes that are international successes?

Mr Jones: I do not think they start from the basis of wanting to make international successes when they come to S4C; they want to make good programming for S4C within the parameters which S4C set.

Q1935 Albert Owen: How do you nurture that?

Mr Jones: We have readjusted, if you like, the development money that S4C hands out to the independent sector to bring along a creative idea, to work it up to a point where it could become a programme and that has been concentrated, again for the benefit of the idea, for the benefit of the company, for the benefit of S4C and eventually for the benefit of the audience. Whoever we are accountable to at the end of the day there is only one important sector out there that I believe we are accountable to, and that is the viewing public. If we do not supply them with the programme that they want to see and which they enjoy then we are not doing what we should be doing. I think that by nurturing and developing ideas and helping the private sector, the independent sector to do this, at the end of the day if those ideas become programmes, if those programmes hit the screens, if they are then submitted to competitions and are given plaudits outside of Wales, excellent, because it then proves that Wales - coming back to this general question of a creative industry - is a hotbed of good, creative ideas which can be translated into good programming.

Q1936 Albert Owen: You have had a number of successes and the point I am making is what makes you unique within Wales, or do you think that the others are doing exactly the same? Or is there something that you are doing different that entices people to come to you rather than go to them?

Mr Jones: I think that what makes us unique is the Welsh language but at the end of the day, as I said, we set ourselves tight programming standards because we believe that the viewing public, through the medium of the Welsh language, deserves what others are getting through the medium of the English language. The medium, i.e. the language, does not make any difference to programming standards; that is why it is becoming expensive to produce high quality programming, and therefore we have to make sure that where we invest there will be an impact and the bank at the end of the day need to be assured. It is not an exact science and it is very, very difficult; we do take risks. If I may mention one particular programme, i.e. the play on a Sunday night, Teulu, I think that stands up to any production in any language on any channel that can be enjoyed by anyone and I am sure that Mr Mark Williams will thank S4C for the benefit to his own constituency! That is by the bye!

Q1937 Albert Owen: Just before I go on, I certainly applaud the opportunities that S4C and other broadcasters are giving in northwest Wales but there is still a huge drift of people into the media, to Cardiff in particular and the Cardiff area, and I do not think that S4C is any different to that. People feel that if they are to get on in media in Wales then they have to go down to the Cardiff area, although I do accept that the independents do contribute a lot. Moving on to the new media platforms, and again you have mentioned the alternative sources that you use for this, do you think that the Web and the websites and everything are actually a threat or even a challenge to you? Which one do you see it as for the future?

Mr Williams: When you talk about globalisation and you talk about threats the challenge is the hundreds of challenges, but new media and the methods by which we can access new audiences is our opportunity. For the first time since 1982 we can now go out and talk to and communicate with the Welsh Diaspora and since 1998 we have been available on Sky throughout the UK, and as John said earlier on we have over 120,000 people watching a week on the Sky platform outside of Wales, and that clearly says something - that there is a demand for our content out there. We have started web streaming now, video on demand, IPTV, subject to rights issues and things, which all broadcasters are going through as part of the terms of trade and things like that, and we hope to be available to international markets and audiences. We firmly believe that there is an opportunity for Wales and for S4C and that there is an audience out there for our content. That is an opportunity.

Q1938 Albert Owen: I hear what you say and a lot of you have mentioned this about being available on Sky and outside Wales, and all the broadcasters say that, but if you do not have Sky how do you get hold of S4C if you live in the Midlands?

Mr Williams: It is a very good question. Sky is the first step for us; we think it is very important to be on Sky. Ideally we would love to be on Free View throughout the UK but there are clearly logistical and financial issues associated with that.

Q1939 Albert Owen: What are those? Could you explain them? What is the attraction of Sky? What does Sky give you that they do not and what are the barriers to you going on to digital Free View?

Mr Williams: Sky gave us access in 1998 to a UK-wide audience and under the 1996 Broadcasting Act we were gifted capacity on a terrestrial multiplex, on SDN, as it was, but only in Wales, which followed our analogue remit and therefore we were not available on DTT throughout the UK. We would have to buy capacity in the open market for that and those would have been prohibitive costs which would have come from our production budget. So it is a balancing act. As I say, ideally we would love to be there, and possibly after DSO and more capacity becomes available it is a discussion we would like to have with DCMS, Ofcom and the BBC, but there are no guarantees.

Q1940 Albert Owen: So it is a financial problem as opposed to a technical problem?

Mr Williams: I imagine there are technical issues as well and we are hoping when more spectrum becomes available after DSO that we can have discussions. We are in the process of having discussions - not about capacity in the UK but regarding capacity post DSO because we have already mentioned S4C Di and the children's services, where do they go post-DSO? We believe it is very important that as many people in Wales - and beyond obviously - get to see those services. So these are important issues to us.

Mr Hartley: I wonder if I can help you? If you want to watch S4C and you did not have Sky and you were in Newcastle upon Tyne, you could watch it through live streaming through the Internet, and if you missed a programme you could watch it for 35 days after transmission on the video on demand; so you can actually access it anywhere in the UK. Similarly, if you are a student and you have access to the JANET network in your hall of residence you can receive it through Internet Protocol television.

Q1941 Albert Owen: And this is a market that you are hoping to expand in the future?

Mr Hartley: Yes, very much so.

Q1942 Mark Pritchard: Bore da. ITV Wales, we had some senior management here last week and they were basically saying how times were difficult from reduced advertising revenue. If ITV Wales were to close its locations in, for example, Wrexham and Colwyn Bay, what impact do you think that would have on the general view of the broadcasters to the people of Wales?

Mr Jones: That is not an easy question to answer because broadcasting, as Mr Albert Owen alluded, has to traditionally been concentric, that I accept. There have been studios in North Wales - the BBC still has a major centre in Bangor. ITV traditionally has had a foothold in North Wales; it had more than it has now. In Paddington many, many years ago - and I am showing my age now - there used to be a sign saying "Welcome to your station back home", which was HTV's advert in Paddington. I think that ITV is still regarded as ITV Wales, whatever it is called these days; BBC Wales is still BBC Wales; S4C is the Welsh language station for Wales, and I think it is important that we do have footholds. We do it through independent production centres, if you like, in places like Caernarvon, in places like Anglesey, in places like Aberaeron, and we are to be seen outside Wales. We keep in touch with the audience through regular public meetings up and down Wales, as does the BBC. We meet our viewers, we discuss with our viewers their aspirations, what they want in terms of programming, and that in fact is a statutory duty that we have. But at the end of the day I think that people's views of television in Wales are probably more national in terms of Wales than they are outside Wales, and that has been concluded in more than one survey by Ofcom and others - the gut feeling that it is theirs, be it ITV, be it BBC Wales or be it S4C; that it belongs to them and it is within Wales. In S4C terms, for example, we do not have to defer decisions to anyone, they are taken in Wales for the benefit of the viewers in Wales. Whether that answers your question, I do not know.

Q1943 Mark Pritchard: But do you accept that for the people of Wales to have real ownership, to feel that it really is theirs, as you put it, that whatever the brand over the door, whether S4C, BBC Wales, ITV, that there needs to be a shared ownership through a geographical distribution and a financial distribution of those broadcasting resources?

Mr Jones: Yes, undoubtedly. I do not think that the need for a physical presence is as great today as it was let us say ten, 15 years ago because technology enables you to be where you want to be, and if you watch evening news broadcasts, for example, and programmes on S4C like Wedi Tri and Wedi Saith we are out there, as are the other broadcasters, in different part of Wales on a regular basis. No longer is it an event when a television crew turns up in a village in wherever because they are there on a fairly regular basis because of technology.

Q1944 Mark Pritchard: If I can interject for a moment, if you have two equivalent news stories and you only have a limited number of outside broadcast vehicles - and let us focus on news, for example - whatever the brand one has to make a decision whether you send that vehicle let us say from Cardiff all the way up to Wrexham to gather a news story, or whether you send it just down the road to St. Athan or something. So that is a financial decision, a management decision and it is a real decision that no doubt does take place, will continue to take place and may take place even more so if there are not the safeguards in place that I allude to.

Mr Jones: If it is also news value, if we are talking in terms of news, it is also a news value question and at the end of the day that is down to the judgment of the news editor. I think that from my experience of watching news on ITV, BBC and in Welsh from the BBC and S4C that news runs fairly high in Wales and that the judgment would reflect the importance of the story and the news value of the story and only in extreme circumstances now, with technology, would it be down to finance and cost because technology enables you to broadcast in some form or other far more easily than it was five, ten, 15 years ago.

Q1945 Mark Pritchard: I am conscious of the time and I am grateful for the answer. I did actually premise my remarks with there being an equivalent news story, so all things being equal I think there are some real challenges there that I hope you might accept. Moving on, I wondered what you thought of the honourable Member for Rhondda's idea, Chris Bryant MP's suggestion that funding for S4C should be devolved to the Assembly?

Mr Jones: Anything of course is possible in this weird and wonderful world of politics. We can be funded from the moon as long as we are adequately funded - that is my main concern. It is not just a question of discussing the funding of S4C when you talk in terms of devolving responsibility for an aspect of S4C. I do not think that that debate is confined to S4C; it is a debate which encompasses broadcasting and that is a pretty broad debate. It involves Ofcom, it involves the BBC, it involves ITV, it involves S4C, it involves far more than the Welsh language. I think it is a convenient debate for some people to flag up in terms of, "It is Welsh, it is Welsh language, devolve it to the Assembly." I do not think that is the issue; it is a broadcasting debate. Obviously we are open to take part in any debate.

Mark Pritchard: I hope you will be open but be prepared to take a stand on the position that you finally resolve to take because my own view is that I do not agree with the honourable Member for Rhondda; I think it is a populist idea which has not been thought through, and actually the evidence that you have brought before this Committee this morning would suggest, particularly in the context of the Diaspora, that it is very much a national, an international one and needs to become an increasingly international broadcaster and platform.

Chairman: Thank you. Mr Martyn Jones.

Q1946 Mr Jones: The NUJ last week gave evidence to the Committee and they suggested that it would be a good idea to set up a commission on broadcasting, which is supposed to give a greater degree of joint working between the Assembly, Westminster, media representatives and regulatory bodies. Do you agree and, if you do, how do you think it could be set up?

Mr Jones: Ofcom have launched a consultation exercise on future public service broadcasting. That obviously involves Wales, it involves S4C, it involves all the broadcasters. I have heard reference to the possibility of something happening within the Assembly but I do not think there has been any announcement. All I would say is that if anything does happen then obviously S4C would have a major contribution to such an inquiry and we would be happy to play our part. But there is talk going around in the ether. If it comes down to brass tacks we would be part of it and happy to be part of it. We will obviously be contributing to the Ofcom review on public service broadcasting because we are a public service broadcaster.

Q1947 Mr Jones: But you think it probably would be a good idea if it was set up, or do you have another view?

Mr Jones: I would like to see more flesh on the bones before I respond to your comment but obviously every debate on the future of broadcasting is an important debate. You have had them, they are ongoing; broadcasting is ongoing; technology is changing and I often feel that I am not able to keep up with whatever happened yesterday is going to be different tomorrow. So a debate is relevant today but it needs to keep up with everything else that is happening within broadcasting and quality.

Q1948 Mr Jones: I know the feeling! Can any lessons be learned for the future of media policy in Wales from the experience of other bilingual countries, such as Ireland, Catalonia and the Basque Country in Spain?

Mr Jones: I think the major difference between the Broadcasting Act that set up S4C and similar legislation in other minority language situations is that, as I am sure Elin Haf Gruffydd Jones who is going to speak to you after we have finished will explain, their legislation, as in New Zealand, sets a duty on the broadcaster in terms of language and culture and the fostering of the language and culture. There is no such duty on S4C; S4C is a public service broadcaster and the authority is a broadcasting authority in its own right. As I said, by the very fact of our being, by the very fact of the fact that we are broadcasting through the medium of the Welsh language, we have played, I think, a major part - a major part - in what in other countries is a statutory duty and we are part of that movement to help the Welsh language look to the future with strength.

Mr Hartley: The comparison, Mr Jones, may be with other lesser used language channels rather than programming on the main broadcasters, and Elin Haf Gruffydd Jones will be able to tell you better than me. But the examples you have are the Frisian language and the lesser used languages in Spain, and in those areas, the Basque Country and in Catalonia, there is a mixed model of funding so that there is government money given to the channel but also there is advertising, and I think what we have in S4C is a unique and novel funding mechanism whereby most of our money comes from a block grant from the government and then we have our commercial revenues and of course we also take programmes from the BBC, and again that is under statute. So it is a very interesting and novel mixed model not only perhaps for lesser used languages.

Q1949 Chairman: Could I end by thanking you for your written memorandum and also the way in which you have responded today to our questions. It occurs to me that when you talk about the Welsh Diaspora I was reminded of the seminal work of Hanes Cymru by John Davies where he describes in the third quarter of the nineteenth century the battle over the survival of the Welsh language was lost at that moment because, even though the numbers of Welsh speakers was rising, within the territory of Wales as a proportion it was declining. What you have described today and the way in which S4C is working through the globalisation of broadcasting is that you are in a sense reversing that and you are describing the way in which you are linking to the Welsh Diaspora in a way that the Welsh Diaspora was in a sense lost to us for 150 years. I wonder whether you could write us another memorandum in which you actually give more information about the way in which you are actually reaching out to that Welsh Diaspora. You have given us some information in your first memorandum and also today, but it would be interesting to have a fuller paper on that to explain what you are actually doing in a more comprehensive way.

Mr Jones: I would just mention one thing, for example, which we will be doing in October; we will be holding a public meeting in Liverpool. We are doing that for two reasons: there is an audience there, which watches S4C, and of course they are the Capital of Culture 2008 and we feel duty bound to go and see the Welsh Diaspora in Liverpool, which has been so important to the Welsh language in that part of the world.

Chairman: Ffarwel. Thank you very much.

Memorandum submitted by Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies, Aberystwyth University

Examination of Witness

Witness: Ms Elin Haf Gruffydd Jones, Director, Mercator Centre, Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies, Aberystwyth University gave evidence.

Q1950 Chairman: Bore da. Could you introduce yourself for the record, please?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: My name is Elin Haf Gruffydd Jones; I am a Director of Mercator Centre at the Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies, Aberystwyth University.

Q1951 Chairman: Thank you for your very helpful memorandum. In that memorandum you note that "globalisation can be seen to be at work in the Welsh creative industries at the point of production, distribution and consumption". Could you give us some examples of that?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: Can I thank you for the opportunity to be here today and I am sorry that I do not have a table full of colleagues to back me up - academics are overworked and underpaid, as I am sure a lot of you know from experience! I think if we look at the public debate about globalisation it has been around for quite some time, but in this particular field the technological advances have accelerated the process and our understanding of it and our capabilities of engaging with it. If we look at the production within the creative industries in Wales, if we look, for example, at what has happened recently within S4C and the way in which a large number of small independent producers have merged together to create larger entities that is an example, is it not, of the way in which phenomena that are associated with globalisation - so in the case of production the consolidation of economic entities - we can see that happening in the production base. If we look at distribution then reference has been made already this morning that we are not just looking at broadcasters broadcasting but we are also looking at broadcasters presenting their content on a number of different platforms; that we are looking at Internet television, we are looking at mobile television; we are looking at streaming and so on. So in terms of delivery we have had that change due to technological advances that we link to globalisation. Then with consumption we are aware that we can access all kinds of audio-visual material from all parts of the world and that is affecting the younger generation probably more than us and older generations. So I think in our viewing patterns, in the way that we access material that could be classified as broadcast material I think there are great changes going on. So that is what I had in mind.

Q1952 Mr Jones: Is the recent growth seen in the creative industries in Wales sustainable, in your view?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: The creative industries is an umbrella, is it not, for a number of different kinds of activities, and of course in the converged field where the difference between the broadcaster and another kind of content distributor becomes a little bit more blurred then we will probably have to look at the industry, even though it is made up of different segments, in a more cohesive way, if you like. There has been growth in the creative industries over and above the general growth in the economy. How sustainable is that? I think a lot of it will depend on the way in which we as consumers decide to consume media. Do we want to access media that is produced in Wales or in the UK or do we prefer to access material that is produced outside our economy? If so, then we are effectively exporting jobs, are we not? So the level of sustainability within the economy depends a lot on us as consumers but also it depends on the way in which policy makers decide to implement policy and where to deploy public funding. We know in the UK and in Wales that we have a very highly respected track record of broadcasting - that has not come without substantial public funds.

Q1953 Mr Jones: I was going to ask you about that. Do you think that the growth is due to public f understood being invested in the business or is it that we are selling significant amounts of programmes abroad? Is that growth international or is it just public investment?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think that it is wise to start looking at your needs as a market or as a society at home first, if you like. I think if you are just producing for exports then you are not contributing to the tradition of public service broadcasting in the way that we have recognised it. I do not have figures to hand; I would not be able to tell you if we are going more in the direction of exporting or more in the direction of consuming what we produce at home.

Q1954 Mr Jones: That neatly leads me on to my next question because the NUJ last week suggested that there is a risk that independent companies become less focused on Wales for the very reason that you have just intimated, that they might be focusing on selling abroad. Do you agree with that?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think independent producing companies that produce Welsh language programmes have to focus on Wales but they need to be able to look beyond Wales too and I do not think that all Welsh language material has to be Wales-based. Indeed, we have a tradition in Welsh language broadcasting of dealing with world issues as well. I think that it is important to have an independent sector in Wales that can produce the best quality programmes for the broadcasters in Wales, and I think that if we were concerned that their attention was being caught elsewhere to a large degree that you would want to look into more detail at the structure. I do not think that that is the case at the moment.

Q1955 Hywel Williams: Is home-grown Welsh broadcasting actually Welsh language broadcasting exclusively? Are there independents in Wales who produce material exclusively in English? Is this one sector, or is it two?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: There are independent companies located in Wales that do not produce material in the Welsh language, yes, that is right.

Q1956 Hywel Williams: Is it significant?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: It is not as significant as the sector that produces in Welsh. The Welsh language sector also includes companies that produce in Welsh and in English.

Q1957 Mark Williams: My questions relate to the changing nature of the public sector and independent broadcasting. A general question to start with: the extent of opportunities and what are the main challenges?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think one of the challenges facing public service broadcasting is that young people are tending to go outside broadcasting and going into Web-based material. I think there is a shift there that has been identified in several Ofcom reports, so I think that it is very important to ensure that there is an engagement between the public service broadcasters and young people - and not just while they are young but as that generation gets older if that generation is lost to the public service broadcasters then that has deep implications for the role of broadcasting within the democracy.

Q1958 Mark Williams: That has very usefully pre-empted one of my questions to the extent to which public engagement was responding to those new media platforms. Do you perceive that the broadcasters are responding to that lead? You talk about consumer driven - are they responding to the need for those new media platforms?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I am very pleased to see public service broadcasters using more than one platform; I think it is important that they are engaging with the new platforms and S4C, the BBC and ITV as well have been quite prominent in that area. I think it is also important when we are looking at new platforms to make sure that we have this notion of universality of access, yes? When we look at broadcasting, broadcasting is available to everybody more or less in the UK; it does not matter where you live, you should be able to access television and that was one of the cornerstones of public service broadcasting. Similarly, if we are looking at public service broadcasters using other forms of delivery, for example through Broadband, through Internet access, then it is very, very important that people who live outside urban conurbations are able to access these services on an equal footing, and I think that there are comparisons to be made with the situation that we had in the 1980s before privatisation of BT, that there was a responsibility to provide a telephone line at the exact same cost regardless of where you lived; and I think there should be a way of addressing that issue and using that principle of universality of access in the digital era.

Q1959 Mark Williams: As a Member of Parliament for Ceredigion I can relate to that from my postbag on that particular area. As you know in a rural area it is a very live issue, particularly in terms of the effect that digitalisation would have on, if you like, people's democratic entitlement. You talk about the history of BT and the universal obligation there; how else can we address that problem?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think the more that democracy relies on being able to communicate to the citizens through Broadband and through the Internet, if it is for example televising this type of Committee so that people have access to finding out what you are doing as their representatives, the more that democracy depends on Broadband services the more Broadband services become part of a basic package or a basic entitlement, and that you should be able to access those. The technology is there but there is a cost implication and where the market does not deliver the kind of society that we are used to living in means that if the market does not deliver and if it is something that we as a society feels is very important then the public sector steps in.

Q1960 Mark Williams: You heard the discussion we had earlier about the discussion of the children's channel and broadcasting from the National Assembly. Presumably in that context there is a serious concern there?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: Yes. Personally I think that broadcasting Parliament and broadcasting the National Assembly is something that is very important to democracy, but I think it is possibly more accessible to more people through Broadband than through broadcast. I think that the system you have here is very good for people who are able to access it, but again we are down to the issue of being able to access through broadband. If we are in a situation where people are able to do that then I think it would be a better way of disseminating the work of the Assembly to put it on Broadband and it would be a better way of serving the children audience in Wales as using that capacity as a television channel. If you look at the popularity of children's channels, niche broadcasting for children, I think that in Wales CBeebies is the fifth most watched digital channel. The CBeebies is aimed at children who are under five or six years' old. It is just an example, if you like, that children - as I am sure many of you know - want to watch children's channels now, not just children's programmes, and they are very, very receptive to picking up the brand - they know what channel they are watching.

Q1961 Hywel Williams: Bore da. You say in your memorandum that citizens in certain parts of North Wales will be unable to receive BBC Radio Cymru and Radio Wales on digital until June 2015 and that is because international spectrum agreements. Can you expand a little on that and tell the Committee whether anything is being done at present to address the situation?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: You will be able to ask Ofcom as well; they will probably have more details than I do. The situation as far as published information is concerned is that DAB radio is carried on more than one multiplex and the BBC's services, BBC Radio 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and the Asian network are on the BBC's DAB radio multiplex. However, in Wales Radio Cymru and Radio Wales will be available, or must be available on the commercial multiplexes. So when the commercial multiplexes are opened out for tender Radio Wales and Radio Cymru must be carried by the commercial operator. However, we have had one situation in the Heads of the Valleys where there was no commercial interest in the commercial multiplex, and so what Ofcom has done in that situation is that they have redrawn the map and included the Heads of the Valleys with other more densely populated areas in that part of the country. But the problem we have with North West Wales, so Gwynedd, Mold and parts of Denbighshire and Conwy too is that Ofcom cannot put the commercial multiplex out to tender until the Republic of Ireland has switched off the digital television signal because of the interference, if you like. So that means that if you buy a digital radio set and you live in one of those areas you will only be able to get those six main BBC services and you will not be able to get Radio Cymru and Radio Wales. I think that it is a matter of some concern that when we look at the advance of the technology that we are in a situation where we have less choice and we have fewer services that provide specifically for our areas. So I think that it is a very, very serious question and it is something that certainly affects more than one constituency around this table.

Q1962 Hywel Williams: For the record, just to make sure of what you said, it is when the Irish switch off their analogue ---

Ms Gruffydd Jones: Television.

Q1963 Hywel Williams: I think you might have said digital.

Ms Gruffydd Jones: Did I? Sorry.

Q1964 Hywel Williams: Do you know if anybody is doing anything about this, such as DCMS? Are they talking to the Irish and is it possible to do anything?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I do not know what the possibilities are in terms of the technical aspect of these problems. I do not know what the BBC is doing on a Welsh level. I read the Audience Council for Wales' minutes of their meeting in May 2007 and they did not seem to be aware of the problem. However, since Ofcom announced that there would be a delay up until 2015 for this that that is a signal that something should be done, and I think it is very possible that you as a Committee would be able to take the matter further if you thought that it needed further attention.

Q1965 Hywel Williams: So what are the implications for Wales? Is the digital service going to be dominated by commercial radio?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: Again it depends how the programme rolls out over the next couple of years. The issue of digital DAB radio in that part of Wales is also going to be a problem for commercial radio too. So the rest of the UK or other parts of the country will be moving ahead and using DAB radio sets, whereas people who live in Gwynedd and Conwy and so on will be using the DAB radio sets but will not be able to access more than that limited amount of radio stations.

Q1966 Hywel Williams: I do not know if it is unique but the area is the only one - apart from Ceredigion perhaps - where you have not only Welsh language broadcasting on the BBC but also on commercial radio, and that will be the very area where digital will not be available. That is an observation really. Will digital switchover, and the closure of BBC 2 Wales in particular, have an effect on English language production from Wales?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: Certainly it is the end of a brand, is it not, and I think that it is very important in a situation where you have numerous, countless outlets to have a very strong brand that people can turn to and they know what to expect. So it is very important to make sure that the 2W brand, as it disappears that there is something that replaces it in terms of branding and also in terms of programme content and the number of programmes that are produced by the BBC in Wales and for Wales.

Q1967 Hywel Williams: You will have heard us early on asking John Walter Jones whether there is any potential for S Pedwar commissioning and broadcasting English language production from Wales. What do you think about that?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think first of all there would have to be a change in the parliamentary Act because the legal basis is that S4C is funded through DCMS to produce programmes in Welsh, so there would have to be a change at that level in order to proceed with English language programming. I think that it is extremely important to ensure that broadcasting and content production through the medium of Welsh can stand up against any kind of competition. As viewers we do not expect lower standards just because it is in Welsh; we want to enjoy programmes, we want to be informed just as well through the medium of Welsh about what is going on in our society as we do if we want to be informed in English. So I think that it is important to ensure that there is a very high level of standard of programming through the medium of Welsh. Similarly, we are not all the same, are we, as people who speak and understand Welsh today would agree? We are not just one group of people; we do not have one set of tastes, and I think it is important to recognise that in Welsh language provision as well. So I think that it is a positive step to see the authority move into the direction of setting up a niche channel for children because that is a way of extending broadcasting in Welsh rather than producing it.

Q1968 Mark Williams: Turning now to the written media and your thoughts on the trend towards concentration of ownership of the Welsh written press?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think we are in a position in Wales where we do not have the diversity of written press and we do not have the strength of written press compared to what is happening and what has been happening for a number of decades in Scotland and also in Northern Ireland and in other countries too. So in that sense we are very dependent on the broadcasters for a plurality of coverage and also studies show that we look to the broadcasters for news coverage more than to the printed press. I think that the concentration of ownership that has taken place in the past couple of years has shown that we live in a society in Wales where there is a dangerous monopoly, if you like, that the company that owns the main Welsh newspapers is possibly taking out of Wales more money than it should do in terms of profit, and there was a report published by the Cardiff School of Journalism that came to that conclusion. So I think there is a danger where you have one large player that they are taking out too much profit and not putting enough back in. So the NUJ and others have concerns in that respect. I perhaps ought to declare an interest however in that I am a member of the Board of Directors of Dyddiol Cyf, which is the company that is trying to set up a daily newspaper in Welsh, just for the record.

Q1969 Mark Williams: I am coming on to that now. In your memorandum you said, "Of the minority language communities that have a strong media, Wales is an anomaly in that it has not yet succeeded in setting up a daily newspaper in the language." Is the establishment of a newspaper viable in Wales, not least in view of the report that came out on January 14, which questioned the viability of that?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think the Welsh language is in an anomalous position and that has been identified by the Council of Europe as well; the Council of Europe's Expert Advisory Committee, the international committee that observes the implementation of the European Charter for regional and all minority languages on behalf of the Council of Europe stated in their report that the Welsh language was in an anomalous position in having a strong broadcast media but relatively weak in terms of the printed press. The Bianchi Report identifies that there are viability issues with the production of a daily newspaper in Welsh if there is not a level of public funding allocated to it in terms of a revenue grant. Our research, looking at the various models of daily newspapers in minority languages across Europe, suggests that the vast majority of daily newspapers in minority languages actually have access to public funds, and I think that is a picture that we are traditionally not familiar with in the UK, and that we have not been subsidising the printed press in the same way that we have accepted public subsidy for broadcasting. So I think it requires a little change of attitude if we are going to have a daily newspaper in the Welsh language. For example, the Basque daily newspaper was established in 1990 and today that newspaper receives around €1.5 million, so about £1 million in revenue grant from the government, and that is about 20% or so of its turnover. So in comparable terms it is necessary to have that kind of level of public support in order to produce a daily newspaper that can serve a minority language.

Q1970 Mark Williams: I think that was acknowledged in the report where the word was used that the need was actually "pressing". So how advanced are we in your work to achieve discussions with government on this?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: As far as we are concerned as a company now we would be ready to move very, very quickly once the government decides if it wants to pursue this issue.

Q1971 Chairman: You mentioned that figure for the Basque newspaper; how does that compare with the indirect public funding of, say, the Western Mail, as a result of advertising by the Welsh Assembly Government and local authorities?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think that the indirect is substantially higher - I think it has been mentioned in terms of three and four million.

Q1972 Chairman: That has been quoted, has it?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: Yes, I think it is in the Cardiff School Report.

Q1973 Mark Williams: In terms of the regulatory and policy framework, you will know of course of the controversy around Ofcom and their representation of Welsh interests with the new arrangements. For the sake of the record for the Committee could you tell us how Ofcom Cymru is represented within Ofcom's overall structure, and perhaps your observations on that?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think that Ofcom has done some very thorough work into the nations and regions in terms of broadcasting and in terms of communication in general, so I would welcome the level of detail in their report that they have attached to the Welsh consumer, the Welsh citizen, and equally in Scotland and so on. I am not entirely familiar with the level of decision-making that takes place on a Welsh level or on a Scottish level and so on, but my impression is that though it is very much a UK-based operation that there is a level of operation that takes place in Wales but I do not know how strategic that is. I think you would be better placed than to ask me.

Q1974 Hywel Williams: Moving on to the international context with people accessing all kinds of media from global sources, do you envisage a shift away from national to international regulation of the media, or the European parts, which I suppose the business end here?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: There are elements of European regulation within the current UK framework of regulation. I think that when it comes to ensuring that people who live in border areas in Europe are able to access the audio-visual content or broadcasting, however it is delivered, I think it is important that people are able to access material that is culturally relevant to them as well as the material that is available in their state. So in that sense cross-border arrangements have to be watertight when it comes to digital switchover and I know that there are problems associated with the Danish minority, Germany and the German minority and Denmark, and as a result of digitisation that they are having less and less access to material in their language on the other side of the border. We do not have that level of problem here. In terms of regulation there needs to be a subsidiarity approach I think in terms of content regulation maybe the closer you can get that to the people then the better, but then of course you have the issue of where does your audience live? Does it live within the proximity of the culture or the cultural base, the territorial base or is it diasporic?

Q1975 Hywel Williams: Do you see on the European level an impact on the competition policy, for example? Or, for example, the chances for minority languages; is that impacting at all, do you think?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: There is also the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities and that is a Council of Europe Charter that the UK government and others have signed up to; so there are clauses within those two pieces of legislation that protect the rights of minority language speakers outside the defined territory as well as within it. So there would be possibilities of implementing those if there was a big problem.

Q1976 Hywel Williams: To move on to the evidence that we had from the NUJ last week, where they called for the establishment of a commission on broadcasting and the media in Wales in order to achieve a greater degree of joint working between the Assembly, Westminster, media representatives and regulatory bodies - that is what they called for - do you agree and, if you do, how do you think it could be best achieved?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: As important as broadcasting is - and it still is a very, very important vehicle for communication - it is important to recognise that we are moving in the direction of the communications rather than just broadcasting, so I think it would be important to identify areas outside traditional broadcasting that are relevant to an inquiry of that kind, and I think the issue of access to broadband is something that is very, very pressing in Wales. So if you are going to look at the issue of broadcasting you need to look at it in this wider context. So if there was a Broadcasting Commission for Wales I would like to see its remit extend beyond broadcasting and I would like to see it look at the issue of communication and broadcasting as a whole and not just look at what is being produced in Wales, but we need to look at what is being consumed in Wales as well.

Q1977 Mr Jones: Can any lessons be learned for the future of media policy in Wales from the experiences of other bilingual nations and regions, and you have mentioned the Basque Country but Catalonia and the Republic of Ireland who must have experiences that they could share with us?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: I think the issue of looking at the whole of the creative industries is one that can be learned and in that sense having a daily newspaper would represent another link in the chain. I think that it would enrich the other communication and creative industries around it. If we look at Catalonia they are a couple of years ahead of us; they have established a 24-hour news service, a news channel in Catalan; they have established a children's channel; they have established other channels in addition to the main channel that they started with in 1983. So they have moved ahead and they have moved into these niche areas of broadcasting, so I think that is something that clearly we need to look at and the S4C Authority has looked at that. In terms of creating good produce that the produce that is coming out of Wales at the moment is on the whole recognised to be of international standing and I think in that sense we are probably leading a lot of minority language communities, but I think the strength that we have in some areas, mainly the Basque country and Catalonia, is that they have a holistic approach to it and maybe that is linked to the way in which their media was set up. They were set up as part of language legislation rather than broadcast legislation. So they are part of a jigsaw and they are very much aware of their role as part of a larger jigsaw.

Q1978 Mr Jones: You mentioned the regional newspaper in the Basque country. Do you think that there are different lessons to be learned from the written press as opposed to the broadcast media?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: When the Basque language newspaper started in 1990 its circulation was well under 10,000 copies a day. By now it is around 20,000 copies a day - it has peaked, it has gone over 20,000, it has gone down to 17 but on the whole it is around 20. I think the way in which they established that newspaper, by popular support if you like, they went out and they sold shares in the company and they tried to build it as a popular project, is something that is interesting to look at and it is part of creating a vibrant society that people feel that they belong to something, that people contribute to it. They can also judge it and criticise it but they have a stake in the project.

Q1979 Mr Jones: Does it actually cross the borders?

Ms Gruffydd Jones: It does; it has several offices and one of them is in the French part of the Basque country. It is a very interesting project; it has about 60 or so staff on it and it has correspondents in many parts. In one piece of academic research they looked at all the newspapers available in the Basque Country and looked at the level of political coverage in terms of political viewpoints and in fact the Basque language newspaper was the one that projected the widest range of political viewpoints. I suppose if you are the only paper in the language then you feel that you have responsibility to be as wide as possible and not just to follow a specific party line.

Chairman: Thank you very much for your evidence this morning and also for the very helpful memorandum, which we found extremely useful in preparing for this session.