RT HON PAUL MURPHY MP, MR ALAN COGBILL AND MR JOHN WILLIAMS

11 MARCH 2008

  Q20  Mark Williams: Secretary of State, returning to cross-border issues, firstly, how advanced are the discussions between the parties undertaking the health protocol, and I am wondering what the extent of your role in that is as Secretary of State, a pivotal role perhaps between the Assembly Government and Westminster, in facilitating that protocol?

  Mr Murphy: I think the protocol of course is essential to the Department of Health and the Welsh Assembly Government, in this case the part headed by Edwina Hart, and certainly, as far as I know, we are well into discussions on these issues now, particularly since I think they have become a matter of interest over the last few months. In fact, as I said earlier on to you, I think that the cross-border issues are something which are more significant now by far than they were when I was holding this job before, so it is ongoing, as they say, and my role, I suppose, is to have an overview of the situation to make sure that the negotiations are smooth and that the operation is working.

  Q21  Mark Williams: You say that it traditionally has not necessarily been the role of the Secretary of State, but it is a developing one. Do you foresee an extension of that process in terms of perhaps education and transport, a remit our inquiry is undertaking? I think particularly you mentioned higher education and there are issues there, the universities in my patch tell me, in terms of fall-off in English students coming into Welsh universities. Would you welcome an increase in protocols in those areas?

  Mr Murphy: If they were necessary. I would not necessarily want to make things too complicated. I think in the health situation it is quite specialist because of funding arrangements and waiting list issues, as we talked about earlier, but of course higher education is an example. There are other issues as well and doubtless, Mr Chairman, when you go into the issues of cross-border matters, you will be able to identify the issues which perhaps none of us has identified in the same way. I would mention one thing. I read recently in an article that people were talking about cross-border issues, "read that for being anti-devolution", but in fact I think the opposite in many respects. It is a recognition that devolution is here to stay, but that we have to be sensible about trying to work out where there are cross-border issues and we have to address them. If, after almost 100 years in Ireland now, they have realised that cross-border issues are important and within the European context too, which the other Mr Williams was talking about, that is important as well, so it is not about being anti-devolution, it is about resolving the issues which need to be resolved for the betterment of people's lives both sides.

  Q22  Mark Williams: You highlight the role of local authorities as well, but the practicalities on the ground, for instance, the parent in a Powys school finding it difficult to obtain an educational statement for their child as opposed to the ease perhaps with which one might obtain one in Herefordshire, so indeed are the practicalities of devolution to be addressed in this way?

  Mr Murphy: Well, that is all within Wales too. There are regional variations within Wales and how different trusts deal with things in health and how education is structured and so on, so there is always going to be that issue. There were cross-border issues before devolution too, for example, people going to a school in Monmouthshire who might live in the Forest of Dean in the southern end, and obviously the enormous cross-border significance of north-east Wales where the conurbation is split down the middle by a border is something that was there before and now we have to acknowledge it and ensure that we are sensible about resolving the issues.

  Q23  Mark Williams: At what point, perhaps looking at the health example, has the National Assembly been drawn into the cross-border dialogue over the development of a protocol? This is an area the Committee will be exploring more. You talked generally, and I agree with you, that in recent months this has become an issue, but what has been the defining point where people either side of the border have said, "This is an issue we need to address in the form of a protocol"?

  Mr Murphy: I think the health one of course is one that has seemed to come to light over the last number of weeks. I have only been in this job a couple of months and, as I say to you, I have realised, because both English and Welsh Members of Parliament talk to me about those issues, that perhaps that is the issue which is of most significance. I do not think there is any reluctance on the part of the Welsh Assembly Government in dealing with these issues; it is just resolving them sensibly, it seems to me.

  Q24  Mrs James: Just moving on slightly from the cross-border issues, I wanted to talk to you about the role of the Welsh Grand Committee. How do you see its role and how can we develop it further?

  Mr Murphy: There has been some talk that there is no longer a role for the Welsh Grand Committee. I am not at all sure that that is right because I think the more opportunities that we can have as Welsh Members of Parliament, unique opportunities in some ways with the Scots and the Northern Irish—it gives us the opportunity, first of all, to cross-examine Ministers and the next time we meet, I think, after the Budget, there will be a chance to talk to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary and myself and address questions to us, so it gives us an extra bite of the cherry in scrutinising the Executive. Secondly, I think there is a case for having the Welsh Grand Committee dealing with issues which are not covered by myself. For instance, energy could be an example, an issue which is for England and Wales, a United Kingdom issue, and there is no reason in this wide world why an energy Minister could not come to the Welsh Grand Committee and take part in the debate on those issues which affect Wales. Thirdly, I suppose you could look at the Grand Committee in some form by which this legislative process could be used. It is like Cledwyn Hughes' old comment that there are pros and cons for and pros and cons against on that issue. One of the problems there is that our argument is that the whole membership of the House of Commons ought to be involved in dealing with Welsh legislation as well. The argument against is that the people who really take an interest in that are Welsh Members, so it is something we need to weigh up. When we have this review in the next few weeks about how best to deal with legislation, perhaps the Welsh Grand Committee could be a part of looking at that because of the burdens that impact upon yourself, for example, but I still think it is a big role for them.

  Q25  Mrs James: Do you think there is also a role for the cross-border MPs? We have seen this in transport, for example, where there is a great coming together and an opportunity because services are affecting them. Do you see some time when we might ask them to come in and join us in certain fields?

  Mr Murphy: It is something I had not really thought about, but it is an interesting thought. That of course is normally a matter for the usual channels and the business of the House would be dealt with through those, but, as English Members of Parliament who have border constituencies often take part in debates on Welsh matters and certainly take part in questions in the House, it is certainly an interesting point which I think ought to be considered.

  Q26  Mr David Jones: Secretary of State, you speak, and I am sure everyone in the Committee would agree with you on the whole, of the need for commonsense in dealing with cross-border issues and pragmatism, but would you agree or would you acknowledge that there is a perception in Wales that increasingly the Welsh Assembly Government is adopting a so-called `in-country' or all-Wales agenda on frequently a doctrinaire basis which is actually operating to the disbenefit of the people of Wales? I have got in mind the glaring example of neurosurgery where the Welsh Health Minister has announced that she wants to see an in-country solution so that all Welsh patients, from whichever part of Wales they come, will have to be treated in Cardiff or Swansea, and I am sure that you are very much aware of the consequent disquiet in north Wales where treatments have been carried out in Walton in Liverpool. Do you really believe that on every occasion common sense is prevailing or would you agree with me that there are some occasions when a more doctrinaire approach is being adopted?

  Mr Murphy: Oddly enough, I was talking to her yesterday about that very issue.

  Q27  Mr David Jones: I am glad I asked the question then.

  Mr Murphy: It is not as simple as I thought, but, as you know, a review has been set up to have a look at the whole question of neurosurgery and treatment for people who suffer from brain tumours and so on in north Wales and the relationship with the Walton Hospital in Liverpool. I think, as I say, or it strikes me anyway that it is what makes the most sense both in financial and in practical terms and we obviously await the outcome of that review now to see what happens, but I do not think that you should dismiss the use of English hospitals by Welsh patients, and I do not think that is ever going to be the case. Mid-Wales, for example, is classic with Shrewsbury and Hereford and so on, and we need to look very carefully at that. Now, as to whether there is sort of a philosophy underpinning that, that you do as much as you can within Wales, I would hope not is my answer there. I would hope that you do not see the border as an iron curtain or as a fortress Wales, but you do because that is what they are charged to do and people elect Members of the National Assembly in Cardiff in order to come up with solutions for dealing with Welsh issues for Welsh people, that is what it is there for, and overwhelmingly it is going to be dealt with within a Welsh context. Occasionally, it is not. If you take Edwina Hart's visit not so very long ago to Bristol to look at walk-in centres by the National Health Service, you are actually looking at issues across the border there which could be used in Wales and hopefully vice versa. We, for example, came up with the Children's Commissioner for Wales and we were the first in the United Kingdom to lead on that and now they have all got one. Similarly, as I said, there are things that we can learn from, as Edwina Hart did on walk-in centres when she went on her visit to Bristol, as an example there, and you know my view anyway, that it would be sensible to have genuine cross-border relationships which would benefit Welsh people, but inevitably the Assembly has to concentrate on doing what it is elected for which is to govern for Welsh people.

  Q28  Chairman: Secretary of State, this has been a very productive session and could I end with two questions. First of all, on this question of cross-border issues and the way in which Ministers in Cardiff and London deal with each other, we are all aware that they meet regularly, but do you think it would be helpful if they announced that they are meeting and what they are discussing?

  Mr Murphy: Yes, I think, is the answer to that.

  Q29  Chairman: Secondly and much more problematic, there are five government departments dealing with devolution policy and strategy. Do you think now, given your additional duties, we are now moving towards a situation where those five departments would become one?

  Mr Murphy: As I said earlier, that is a matter for Prime Ministers and they will have to take decisions on the way in which government departments are structured, but what is certainly the case is that over the last number of years, before I came back into this job, there was a need for a sort of central look at how devolution was working and, therefore, we have officials in the Ministry of Justice and we have officials in the Cabinet Office, and the Cabinet Office co-ordinating devolution issues, which is the job of cabinet offices, and the Ministry of Justice looking at those which involve both Wales, Scotland and indeed Northern Ireland. As I say, that is really a matter for the Prime Ministers. The important thing is that people are looking at those issues in a different way from perhaps when they were first looking at them when I first held this job.

  Q30  Chairman: I suspect that that kind of approach would be informed now by your more proactive role with the Joint Ministerial Committees.

  Mr Murphy: Yes, and the Joint Ministerial Committee function is one which is held by the Cabinet Office, and the British-Irish Council is a part of the Ministry of Justice, also with other functions dealing with devolution, and I have a very close working relationship with the officials in both government departments and I meet them very regularly as well.

  Q31  Chairman: You mentioned this health protocol. Could we write to you and ask you to provide a short paper on the progress of that protocol?

  Mr Murphy: Of course. [2]

  Chairman: We also wanted to ask you about globalisation and the Olympics. It may be that these are matters that could be discussed when you next come to us and we look forward to that. I presume that will obviously be after your report is published, so we look forward to seeing you in June. Thank you very much for your attendance.