MR CHRIS AUSTIN, MR DAVID MAPP AND MR RICHARD MALINS

14 NOVEMBER 2007

  Q60  Mr Hollobone: A number of your members allow police officers off duty to travel free of charge on rail services on the understanding that if there is trouble on the train they can assist the ticket inspector or the other rail staff to deal with that. To what extent do your members offer that service?

  Mr Mapp: Are you referring to the agreement that we have with the Metropolitan and City of London Police Forces in the London area?

  Mr Hollobone: I represent a constituency in Northamptonshire and I understand that the rail operator there allows off-duty police officers to travel free of charge.

  Q61  Chairman: I think Mr Hollobone is referring to a custom and practice which has always been in most transport systems. Nobody specifies it but I think it is accepted, it is one of those nod-and-a-wink jobs.

  Mr Mapp: Right, okay. Well, in the schemes that I am aware of there is certainly an agreement with police forces in Greater London and there are also some schemes around the country that I am aware of where police officers receive free travel. In the case of London there is a financial arrangement in place. In other areas it is on the basis that the police officers provide support and assistance.

  Chairman: We are getting a bit tight for time now so Mr Simpson.

  Q62  David Simpson: I think, Mr Austin, you mentioned earlier on that customers had the right of appeal and I understand also that train operators appoint their own appeals panels. How can customers be sure that they are getting a fair deal?

  Mr Austin: There are two companies that offer an appeals service, one of which is owned by one of our members and the other of which is independent. Independence is guaranteed by the fact that they do not exercise a personal discretion in that they are administering a code of practice set by the Department for Transport, which audit them, so that is the guarantee of independence. The other is perhaps the financial point, that the funding is on the basis that it is paid for by the train operators who participate in the scheme but on the basis of a flat payment for each appeal, regardless of whether it is accepted or not, so there is no financial incentive one way or the other; it is a straight payment.

  Q63  Chairman: Can I ask you very briefly now, gentlemen, is it true that revenue protection staff have got too much power and occasionally are a bit heavy-handed?

  Mr Austin: I do not think they have too much power. I think they have the powers they need to implement their responsibilities and duties. In the event of any of them being, or appearing to be, heavy-handed there is an appeals procedure.

  Q64  Chairman: This appeals procedure Mr Simpson mentioned, you are quite convinced it is sufficiently transparent and people will be quite reassured because they will know that it is separate from the people who have appointed those to run the system?

  Mr Austin: I think so, Chairman, and they are set up to be independent.

  Q65  Chairman: Yes I understand that but does the passenger understand that they are totally separate?

  Mr Austin: They are audited by the Department for Transport and Passenger Focus is also involved, and I think if there were any concerns over the way the code was being applied there is a right of appeal to Passenger Focus as well.

  Q66  Chairman: So you think the passenger can be assured that this is a satisfactory appeals procedure?

  Mr Austin: Yes I do.

  Q67  Chairman: You have not talked about PlusBus in relation to buses.

  Mr Mapp: PlusBus is a scheme that eight[1] train operating companies have supported since its inception. It is a scheme that has been developed entirely by private sector bus and train operators without any central government funding. Over the course of the past three or four years it has grown to the extent that there are now 227 PlusBus schemes across the country with more planned, including Crewe to be added during the course of 2008. Whilst initially numbers were small they have grown significantly, over the last year in particular, in response to the first national promotional campaign for PlusBus, and this year we are expecting there to be over 100,000 issues of PlusBus tickets. I think it demonstrates the ability of the private sector to work co-operatively together. There is, we believe, further potential and further opportunity in PlusBus and the PlusBus product lends itself very well to delivery through smartcards.

  Q68 Chairman: You have spoken quite a lot about Internet sales and how the trend is upwards, but it is not possible if you have a cycle, to book the right of passage, is it, on the Internet? PlusBus is not available on the Internet, cycle carriage bookings are not available over the Internet. The point you were being asked very specifically earlier, on which I think is enormously relevant, is if you are moving towards more and more technology do you understand how some of this can exclude whole groups of passengers? I must tell you unless it is a three-wheeled cycle I cannot see myself fighting my way on to a train with a bicycle, but supposing I went mad and decided to put a bicycle on at Euston to get to Crewe, how could I book that if I cannot use the Internet (although you tell me that Internet booking is the way to do it)?

  Mr Mapp: The vast majority of rail products are available on the Internet.

  Q69  Chairman: But this particular one is not and it is not alone, is it? All I am saying to you is why is it that you have a system that you are telling us you are going to use more and more, that you are telling us is very helpful, that you are telling us provides the passenger with the right sort of information, and then you are not able to say why certain groups of passengers are excluded from using the system?

  Mr Mapp: I think the development of the Internet has focused on the major products that the vast majority of customers wish to buy. I would accept that there are omissions from the product range at the moment that need to be addressed and PlusBus is one and cycling is a second, and I think that is something as an industry we do need to address.

  Q70  Chairman: What about frequent and unco-ordinated bus timetable changes; is that going to undermine PlusBus?

  Mr Austin: That was something we referred to in our paper and I guess that is a concern. The suggestion was that, if possible, there should be a move with connecting rail/bus links to make the changes at around the same time as the train time tables twice a year, which are themselves governed by European requirements, so that there would be some co-ordination.

  Q71  Chairman: Integration is going to be enormous and we have been talking about concessionary fares, we have been talking about special simplified systems, are you quite confident that if as an industry you are required to move forward the companies will not only be responsive to the complications that will come with the new technology but they are in talks with government about the implications of the difference between the Oyster system and the ITSO system?

  Mr Austin: Yes, I think it is very interesting to look at the historical perspective of this because the[2] card ticket lasted for 150 years, the magnetic stripe ticket for 30 years and now we are already talking about changes to the Oyster system. It is going to change more frequently and more dramatically over the next few years then we have ever seen before so we are going to have to be pretty light on our feet, and we want to be doing that.

2   Note by witness: Insert "Edmonson" Back