DEPUTY ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER JOHN YATES QPM, MS CARMEN DOWD AND MR ASKER HUSAIN

13 JULY 2006

  Q40  Grant Shapps: So it was a chance thing?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: Yes.

  Q41  Grant Shapps: Because I was surprised to hear you say before that you knew we were not going to continue calling in witnesses. That is not my understanding of what the Committee had actually decided; indeed we never said we were putting our investigation on hold, only that we would try not to interfere by interviewing witnesses that you would want to obviously speak to, and I think we understood who those witnesses were, so my understanding was very much we would have been had there not been a fairly high profile move—

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: I hope I have not disclosed a conversation I should not have disclosed, but that was the clear indication you gave me on Friday.

  Jenny Willott: Until the autumn.

  Chairman: I think we are talking slightly at cross purposes. We took a view that we would not come across your investigation by interviewing certain witnesses and we have stuck with that, and there seemed no reason to depart from that until it was clear what your investigation produced.

  Grant Shapps: Just to be clear, though, we were clear amongst ourselves that we would come to a further decision having met you today.

  Q42  Chairman: No. This is part of the review process which is what we are engaged in.

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: That was what I had in my mind so—

  Q43  Grant Shapps: There is no need to be obsessed about that. We are, as we have said, in our minds continuing with the investigation—indeed, issued a report today, and are at liberty to continue to interview other witnesses around the subject of propriety and honours, so would it cause you a problem if we asked the Prime Minister to come and be interviewed and be our witness?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: It would cause me a problem for you to take any evidence of that nature at the moment, yes.

  Q44  Grant Shapps: Because you may need to speak to him at some point.

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: It would cause me a problem for you to take any evidence about this matter at the moment whilst this is under investigation—

  Q45  Grant Shapps: Hold on, because we agreed last time that we may well continue with, I suppose, what we call low level witnesses who would not obviously cause you a problem so we have to be able to make a distinction between those who would cause a problem and those who would not. The Prime Minister, you are saying, would be on the list of those who would cause you a problem?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: I think it would be unwise to see anybody in connection with this matter at the moment.

  Q46  Grant Shapps: Are you going to speak to the Prime Minister at some point?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: I am not going to discuss that.

  Q47  Grant Shapps: But you have certainly not ruled it out?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: I am not going to discuss that.

  Q48  Grant Shapps: Because it seems to me that if this Committee wants to have the Prime Minister in front of it then it can, and if he is out of the frame, as it were, then there is no reason why we should not be doing that. Yet you are saying it would be unwise to cause a problem and so on and so forth—

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: What I have said is that it would be unwise to see anybody in connection with this investigation at the moment. We are clearly at a very delicate stage; it would be very unwise, in my view.

  Q49  Chairman: I think we did what you asked; we took you on trust which is that you were doing a serious investigation and there were some possibilities of danger if we were to take evidence from certain people; we took legal advice on that and I think we have stuck with that view. We discussed whether we might take the evidence privately or not; we decided on balance there would be more disadvantages than advantages in doing that; so my view is, as I have said to you already, that we took a correct view on that and these are parallel investigations, but I think you will find that what we have done here is useful context for the work—

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: Can I respond to that? I am very grateful for the entirely responsible way that this particular Committee has approached this. It has been very helpful in terms of how we have been able to progress our inquiries. Thank you.

  Q50  Grant Shapps: You have not read our report yet, have you! Finally on this, what I am struggling with slightly here is, in my mind at least, you were coming back today—I think—to convince us that this was moving in some sort of direction, and you must have been aware that in the arrests taking place yesterday, if not us then at least the media would think that that was a move in some way related to you coming in today. You have already referred to that so you obviously were very acutely aware of it. So why yesterday? Why not distance it, or make it after this, or a week ago?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: As I say, it is the evidential point in time. It is, and I come back to this, the prompt and effective investigation of the offence. As I say, in my mind I did not think there was a threat from this Committee taking evidence, and you have to be assured on that point. So it was not designed to try and influence, sway you—any of those considerations at all. It is simply around that is the moment we considered it appropriate and a professional judgment to exercise the power to enable this investigation to continue.

  Q51  Kelvin Hopkins: Very briefly, you said at the beginning that you were not worried about the Committee referring to what you said in your first statement, but you did not intend to issue that yourself. I was just wondering, would it not be helpful all round if you did issue a statement, or at least used it as a response to journalists who may ask you questions?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: Whilst an investigation is on-going, particularly where we have someone being interviewed today, it would not be appropriate for me to do anything in a public way.

  Q52  Chairman: But you are happy for us to be your parliamentary spokesmen?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: No. I am just saying it is a matter for the Committee.

  Q53  Paul Rowen: You said you had arrested two people. The first was obviously to do with the Academy programme. Have you completed your investigations on that area?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: No. It is all part and parcel. Parallel but clearly linked.

  Q54  Paul Rowen: Clearly linked, in your view?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: Yes. It is parallel and linked.

  Q55  Paul Rowen: Right. Do you envisage opening up any other lines of inquiry?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: Not at the moment.

  Q56  Paul Rowen: You say you have interviewed members of the Conservative Party as well?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: Yes.

  Q57  Paul Rowen: And do you think there is cause for concern?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: Well, lenders. One assumes they are members of the Party but I do not know.

  Q58  Paul Rowen: Is there anybody likely to be arrested from that investigation?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: I do not want to speculate on that, sorry.

  Q59  Chairman: Did I miss a question which asked you how many further people you thought you were going to have to interview?

  Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates: It was really "How long is a piece of string". I do not know. They are becoming smaller numbers but I can suddenly interview someone tomorrow which will require me to go and see X number.