UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 263-ii

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

HOME AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

Domestic Violence

Tuesday 29 January 2008

MS SHAZIA QAYUM, COMMANDER STEVE ALLEN and MR NAZIR AFZAL

Evidence heard in Public Questions 102 - 156

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Home Affairs Committee

on Tuesday 29 January 2008

Members present

Mr Keith Vaz, in the Chair

Ms Karen Buck

Mr James Clappison

Mrs Ann Cryer

David T C Davies

Mrs Janet Dean

Patrick Mercer

Margaret Moran

Martin Salter

Mr Gary Streeter

Mr David Winnick

________________

Memoranda submitted by Association of Chief Police Officers' Honour-based Violence Working Group and the Crown Prosecution Service

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Ms Shazia Qayum, a survivor of a forced marriage, Commander Steve Allen, Association of Chief Police Officers' Honour-based Violence lead, and Mr Nazir Afzal, Director, Crown Prosecution Service (London West), gave evidence.

Q102 Chairman: Can we now resume our inquiry into domestic violence and forced marriages. Yesterday the Committee had a very useful visit to Croydon where we saw the Family Justice Centre there, and today we have a number of further witnesses in our inquiry. We are going to start with a number of questions to Shazia Qayum. Ms Qayum, thank you very much for coming to give evidence to this Committee. We know this is a difficult thing to do and we are very grateful to you for sharing this experience with us. The Committee has, of course, heard from other survivors of forced marriages and domestic violence in private but this is the first evidence we are taking in public. As I understand it, you were taken out of school and held prisoner in your home, forced to marry abroad and only returned to the United Kingdom after agreeing to sponsor your husband under duress.

Ms Qayum: That is correct.

Q103 Chairman: You left your home in 1998 and were subsequently disowned by your family. Could you give us a brief account of your experience, in particular, in dealing with the agencies that are there to help you and others deal with these immensely difficult problems?

Ms Qayum: Firstly, I would like to thank you for inviting me and giving me a platform to share my experiences today. My experiences started at the age of 15 when my parents presented me with a photograph of the person they wanted me to marry in Pakistan, who was my first cousin. When I refused to get married I was told that I would not be able to finish my education. At 15 it was very important for me because it was my GCSE time. I was kept at home for a whole year; no one from the education welfare, no one from social services asked the question where I was. My parents handed in a sick note from the family GP telling them that I was not well enough to attend. I was kept at home for the whole year and chaperoned everywhere I went. At the age of 17 I was taken to Pakistan on a family holiday. I was told: "It's a family holiday and we're going for four weeks". I was quite excited to go because I had never been to Pakistan in my life - I am a British-born subject, born in Britain and never been abroad in my life. On arrival in Pakistan and a week into the holiday I was told that my preparations were going ahead and it was my marriage. I was also told that "no" was not an option and if I did not go through with the marriage I would not be able to return to the UK. Unfortunately, I did not feel that I could turn to anybody abroad or any member of my family. I went ahead with the marriage and then I was forced to sponsor my spouse for entrance to the UK. I was not only forced to sponsor him to come to the UK, I was left in Pakistan for a further six months by my parents until I had done that. When I submitted the application form to sponsor my spouse, unfortunately, because I was interviewed with the spouse and the rest of the family, I was not able to raise my concerns. If I had that opportunity I would have. I then arrived back to the UK and had to demonstrate that I could financially support my spouse. While I was working I used that time to write to the immigration and write to the Home Office explaining how I was forced to marry and how duress was a factor, and how I did not want to sponsor the particular person to come to the UK. I also said in the letter when the marriage took place I actually told my ex-husband that I was forced to marry him, and his response to me was he did not care; he just wanted to come to the UK. Unfortunately, the letters that I did write to the Immigration and the Home Office, I wrote seven letters and none of my letters were acknowledged, and to my surprise he got a visa to come to the country. He arrived in the country ten years ago. I left home, which was a very big decision for me to contemplate being disowned by my family, from my community and everything I knew. I did leave home; I actually rang the police and was escorted by the police. When the police escorted me from the property my father was shouting abuse and he actually said he would find me and kill me. The police officers took me to the police station, took a statement off me and then told me to make my own way - did not signpost me to any agencies or any support networks. I then went and put myself in a bed-and-breakfast and stayed there for six months with some money that I had saved up prior from working. After staying in a bed-and-breakfast for six months I then heard an advertisement for a support agency for domestic violence and access to refuge provision, and I then went into the Karma Nirvana refuge where I started rebuilding my life. It has now been ten years and I am still disowned by my family today. I believe my ex-husband is still in the UK. I did not support him for indefinite leave to remain; I left two weeks after him coming into the UK, and he is still there.

Q104 Chairman: Does he have indefinite leave?

Ms Qayum: I believe he has.

Chairman: Thank you very for that statement. My colleagues on the Committee are going to explore each of the various agencies with you (they have each got a question, for which we would be grateful if you could answer), starting with Ann Cryer.

Q105 Mrs Cryer: Shazia, your story is a story I hear every other week in my constituency. Things have improved because we are able to help girls like yourself, I believe, through the two organisations that are presently here, but things are still difficult. My question was to have been what sort of response did you get when you want to the police station, but from what you have already said you did not get much of a response. I hope that that would not be the case today, but I am sure there are certain areas where we have a lack of understanding of your sort of case. Do you have any views as to how a police person, on the front line, on hearing of a case like yours, should deal with it immediately?

Ms Qayum: I think the immediate response should be to believe that person, first of all. I think that is the most important thing because nine out of ten times people do not get believed and it is looked over. Also, to take the risks on board, because the risks do not stop there when you are leaving home; the risks really start when you have left home. I think, also, for the police to understand and put that particular person in touch with a survivor in order for them to share their experiences with someone else in order to let them know that there is help and support and light at the end of that tunnel.

Q106 Ms Buck: Just picking up that point, Shazia, about support, at the very end you just mentioned the refuge option. To what extent do you feel you knew and had confidence that there may be safe accommodation available to you; that there were refuges and that there was somewhere physically you could go? Again, what kind of improvements do you think need to be made to that system to help the people like you of today?

Ms Qayum: Firstly, I did not know about any refuge accommodation and did not know that until I heard the advertisement on the radio for a support agency who signposted me to refuge provision. I have never known that there was any support agency for south Asian women, or any women for that matter, in terms of domestic violence, forced marriage or honour-based violence. The only thing I did know was that there were social workers and foster care homes, and I think that was because of the whole awareness raising. I think not having posters up in schools, not having teachers talking about it, no awareness-raising at schools to make you aware that if you are going through that there are people you can turn to. I do not believe that I could have turned to my teacher because I felt my teacher would have gone straight home and told my parents, but if the teacher is more aware of forced marriage and honour-based violence more pupils would feel more confident in turning to them.

Q107 Ms Buck: Is that because you thought your teacher would not believe you? Or do you think that the teachers would instinctively take the view that your welfare was best served by your parents, regardless?

Ms Qayum: I think the teachers would contact my parents, and they would think my best interests are with the parent. I think that was also because of my own experiences of my best friend getting married at the age of 12 for truanting school. So therefore I was very fearful.

Q108 Mrs Dean: I hope things would be better nowadays than they were ten years ago in your case. I was interested to hear what you said about not being interviewed on your own when you went to the Immigration Service. Were there other times when you had problems with the Immigration Service? Clearly, that would have been a chance for you to be able to say to them that you did not wish to bring your husband over. Can I ask you two questions, really? What problems did you have with the Immigration Service, and had you been interviewed at the time, on your own, would you have felt strong enough to actually say to them that you did not want to bring your husband over, bearing in mind that your family could have disowned you for telling them that?

Ms Qayum: Firstly, if I had an opportunity to raise my concerns and I know that my parents - that I would be disowned by my immediate family and my extended family members, I would have taken that route. The reason why I would have taken that route is I was considering writing to the Immigration and the Home Office on my arrival to the UK. If I had that opportunity, yes, I would have raised my concerns then.

Q109 Mrs Dean: The other question is more general: what are the problems you had in actually getting through to them that you did not want this marriage to exist?

Ms Qayum: The only problems with Immigration, I feel, is when I wrote to the Immigration, and I continued to write to the Immigration and I called and they told me they had a backlog, and unfortunately my letters were not acknowledged; I felt very let down.

Q110 David Davies: Shazia, thank you for sharing your story with us. Do you think that, in your experience, this is happening to many young women in your community?

Ms Qayum: I do, I do. I think it is happening to many, many young women and men, but I believe it is very under-reported.

Q111 Margaret Moran: Just on the immigration case, Shazia, you said that (I was going to call him a gentleman but I will not) the person in question got indefinite leave to remain. Have you any idea how that happened? The second point is, before you were taken to Pakistan did you have any inkling or was there anybody to whom you could have said: "If I don't come back by such a time alert somebody"? Would there have been anybody you could have trusted to do that for you?

Ms Qayum: I did not feel that I could turn to anybody before I went to Pakistan but I also did not know that I was going to be forced into marriage, because when I was taken out of school at the age of 15 and kept at home until the age of 16, for a whole year, as a prisoner, I was then allowed to find a job, and marriage was not an issue at home - no one talked about marriage. Therefore, when I turned 17 and was told to go on a family holiday I did not really think my parents would force me to marry. The second question: on his arrival to the UK, on 5 November 1999, I left home two weeks after that. I had no contact whatsoever but he still got indefinite leave to remain in the UK. I do not understand how.

Q112 Mr Streeter: Thank you for your courage in coming here today. Education you have already touched on - that you were kept back from school and the school did not make any inquiries. Has there been any subsequent follow-up from school at all? Really, I suppose, that has wrecked your education? Have you been able to get qualified in anything since?

Ms Qayum: It was a very big impact on my education because it was a very important time - GCSE time. I was kept at home for a whole year and no one from the education welfare came to ask the question why; I almost felt invisible and no one cared. I also remember sitting there thinking that if I was any other child and if I wasn't Asian would school teachers be knocking on the door? Was I different just because I was Asian? In terms of my education now, I have just managed to get my first qualification, which is the first year at university in community research in mental health of South Asian women. That is very recent - last year.

Q113 Mr Streeter: I am going to ask a question but feel free not to answer it. What impact has all this experience made on your personal faith?

Ms Qayum: Quite surprisingly, I have used my faith to empower myself. My parents used my other faith, our religion, as a tool and told me, in particular, that no matter what your parents say you have to obey your parents. Yes, you do obey your parents, but if your parents are abusing you, you know - a wrong is a wrong and a right is a right. I have used my religion to empower myself.

Mr Streeter: Well done. Thank you very much.

Q114 Martin Salter: Shazia, what is very alarming is the lack of practical support you were able to draw upon from the authorities. Could you just explain for us why the GP was able to sign you off when you were apparently completely healthy for an indefinite period of time? Was the GP part of the conspiracy in your view?

Ms Qayum: The GP was a family friend. My parents actually went to the GP without taking me to the GP surgery and they had a sick note and handed it into school. I do not know how long that period of sick note was for - three months, three weeks, or six months - but that was handed into school to say I was not well.

Q115 Martin Salter: Would it be your advice to us, in the course of our inquiry, that we should probe the role of GPs in cases like this, where the GPs are actually in breach of the ethical standards that govern their procedures by signing sick notes in order to facilitate, effectively, forced marriage?

Ms Qayum: Absolutely.

Q116 Martin Salter: Okay, we will certainly take that on board. Secondly, you now work for Karma Nirvana.

Ms Qayum: I do.

Q117 Martin Salter: And they recommended, in this incredibly helpful submission, DV36, that we called you as a witness, and we are all delighted that you are here. However, we also noticed, in the same submission, that they note that "not one secondary school in Derby would display the Government's forced marriage poster, which we have tirelessly advocated schools to display".

Ms Qayum: That is right.

Q118 Martin Salter: This appears to me to be touching on the nub of the problem. If the Government's own Forced Marriage Unit cannot put posters advertising its services into schools that are funded through the taxpayer, do we not have a serious problem of institutional resistance? Is this another area that we should be probing?

Ms Qayum: Definitely. It is very important to me for all 0young people at schools to know what help and support is out there. Before the summer holidays myself and Yasmin Sangerra (?) approached all secondary schools in Derby and spoke to all heads of schools and told them that we wanted them to put the posters up for children to know what kind of support is available and where they can get in contact. They told us they did not want to offend parents. They have posters for drugs, alcohol and all other posters up there, and to offend parents and not have the forced marriage poster is not a good enough answer.

Q119 Martin Salter: You said that your husband really was not interested whether it was a marriage under duress or not, all he was interested in doing was getting into the UK. Is forced marriage used in many ways as a way of shortcutting the established immigration procedures?

Ms Qayum: Definitely. I see a lot of young women and men who tell us that forced marriages are used to get entrance into the UK. I quite clearly told my ex-husband that I did not want to be his wife and I did not want to be his partner, and he told me he did not care, he just wanted to come to the UK. At the same time, that was something we agreed on so that we did not consummate the marriage. Because I did not want to consummate the marriage I played along with him to sponsor him to the UK until I could get help or try to get help from the immigration by writing to them. Unfortunately, I did not get a response.

Martin Salter: Thank you very much for coming to see us.

Q120 Mr Winnick: As I understand it, your husband, you told us, was given permission by the Home Office to stay here as your husband, because, clearly, from what one can gather, there was no proper investigation. If the answer from the Home office had been no, is it likely that your parents, either with you, against your wishes but nevertheless, or on their own, would have gone and seen their Member of Parliament and urged the Member of Parliament to take action to try and allow your husband to stay?

Ms Qayum: Possibly. Possibly. I am not sure. I did believe they would have tried to use every opportunity they could for him to remain in the UK. Unfortunately, I have not had any contact with my parents whatsoever.

Q121 Mr Winnick: So there does seem a problem, does there not, with Members of Parliament (who, obviously, are always concerned to try to please constituents, for the most obvious of reasons) taking up cases which, in the end, in some instances like your own, if it happened (and it did not happen because the Home Office said yes), can cause great unhappiness.

Ms Qayum: Absolutely.

Mr Winnick: Perhaps that is a lesson, Chairman, for Members of Parliament ----

Chairman: I do not know why you are looking at me!

Mr Winnick: I would have thought that is a matter that should be of concern to us.

Q122 Chairman: It is a matter of concern. Ms Qayum, have you written to the Home Secretary to ask her how it was possible for indefinite leave to be granted to someone in this country where the spouse was not supporting that indefinite leave?

Ms Qayum: No.

Q123 Chairman: Would you like to write to the Home Secretary and send us a copy of the letter?

Ms Qayum: Absolutely.

David Davies: We could, perhaps, Chairman, on Ms Qayum's behalf.

Mrs Dean: The problem is I think Ms Qayum will be told she is the third party, as we are when we write to constituents.

Q124 Chairman: She might be. If you write to us we will forward the letter on.

Ms Qayum: Thank you very much.

Q125 Chairman: It is not possible to get indefinite leave by fraud if somebody has fraudulently done it. I am not suggesting you did, but you simply need an answer. The Committee will write on your behalf.

Ms Qayum: Thank you very much.

Chairman: Thank you very much for giving evidence today. You are welcome to stay. We have some questions of Mr Afzal and Commander Allen. As time is relatively short, we have enough time to ask all our questions but what we are going to do is direct questions to each of you in turn. If you want to chip in, please do so. The Committee promises to put the questions briefly but we would like brief and succinct answers, if that is possible. I would like to start with David Winnick, who has a question on the police.

Q126 Mr Winnick: Commander Allen, we have heard a very impressive and very courageous experience told to us today. There was, however, the very sad and tragic case of the woman who was murdered, Banaz Mahmoud. How far would you say that those seeking assistance from the police are in a position where they will be helped and not, indeed, in the case we have just heard, told they are virtually on their own?

Commander Allen: Chairman, good morning. Unfortunately, many of these questions do not lend themselves to short answers, but I will try, and trust you to take me to other places if you want to. The answer to your question is that I am more confident now than I have ever been. Ten years ago, as the head of operations for the City of Bristol, I had never heard of this issue, which, when I reflect on that, strikes me now as being quite remarkable and astonishing, given the nature of that community. The service has moved to a point where now, quite evidently, we have an ACPO lead on the subject and a developing strategy and much has been done. To summarise, in answer to your question, I think at a strategic level and at a policy level, in terms of the guidance that we have developed, the evidence base that we have developed over ten years, and the resources that are available to officers, it would be reasonable to say, without wishing remotely to sound complacent, that in terms of the investigation of honour related homicides the service is now far in advance of where it previously has been, and most investigations now receive credit for the quality, sensitivity and professionalism of them. I think we have also witnessed some significant improvements in the responses and the knowledge made by what I would call specialists in, particularly, domestic violence functions - those who receive additional training, those whose job it is to manage the risk assessment process and then conduct investigations. The further we get towards the front end the less confident one can be. The key challenge that I have always seen and articulated with this work is that we have in excess of 100,000 people around the country who may be the first person to whom a victim reports, and the ambition has to be to have the confidence that every one of those 100,000-plus people, every single time they come into contact with a victim, gets it right. I cannot sit here and, in all honesty, say to you that I believe that on every single occasion we do get it right, because I know from contacts with those working in the field that on far too frequent a basis we still do not get that right. My assurance is that we are doing the work to try and improve that situation. As I say, we have developed much guidance and many tools for officers in developing training on a national basis in order to try and make sure that we can give that guarantee. We are much better than we were, but we still have a way to go.

Q127 Mr Winnick: Where it went disastrously wrong, in the case which I mentioned, Banaz Mahmoud, a 20-year-old woman of Kurdish origin who her parents were trying to force into a marriage, she approached the police four times - four times - in fear of her life, including writing a letter to the police with the names of three men, her uncle's henchmen, who she thought - with every justification, sadly, as it turned out - would murder her, and her body was found buried in a suitcase in a family garden in Birmingham in 2006. It has, of course, been a case where the IPCC are conducting an investigation into what was described as an inadequate police response to her appeal for help. It is a terribly tragic case; terrible that her life should be taken by thugs simply because she was desperate not to marry a particular person, and all her efforts to contact and be helped by the police did not succeed in any way. Do you feel, Commander, that every police station in the UK has been notified about this case - the circumstances and the lessons to be learned? Are you satisfied that wherever the police station may be (obviously, there are many parts of the UK where the number of people of Asian origin are few), by and large, the police sergeant, etc, and his superiors would know and understand the situation - different from what happened to this lady?

Commander Allen: Our response in relation to that particular tragic case, sir, is that the IPCC have still not published their investigation report, and we await that, hopefully, in the next month or so. Of course, we will learn lessons from that. I have delayed putting the draft ACPO strategy into the ratification process precisely because I want to make sure that that strategy encapsulates the learning that comes out of that. As you will be aware, there were two different police forces involved at various stages during the inquiry. In terms of your question about the lessons coming directly out of that case - have we circulated those to police forces - no, because we have not seen the IPCC view of those lessons yet, but what we did do in the immediate aftermath, or as soon as that case came to light (originally produced by the Metropolitan Police but now under an ACPO badge) is produce a two-page guidance document, which I am very happy to circulate to the Committee.

Q128 Chairman: Please. That would be very helpful.

Commander Allen: Which sets out some background and some of the key dynamics, and it gives very, very specific guidance to officers in terms of what they should do and what they should not do. It also gives, reflecting on Shazia's experience, a range of contact details for organisations and agencies that can provide that support. We have re-circulated that; that was the second time that had been circulated to every police force in the country immediately that that case came to light. Certainly, I can tell you that my own responsibility as the Commander of Westminster resulted in that being brought to the attention of every member of staff who works at a front counter.

Mr Winnick: Thank you.

Q129 Mrs Cryer: Nazir, what are the specific barriers to pursuing cases of honour-based violence or forced marriage? I recognise that forced marriage in itself is not a criminal offence, and therefore I recognise that you cannot pursue it, but in the course of someone being forced to marry there must, of necessity, be various criminal acts carried out.

Mr Afzal: Absolutely.

Q130 Mrs Cryer: Yet to date I do not know of anyone being prosecuted for committing these acts of violence or criminal acts in order to force someone to marry.

Mr Afzal: Good morning, Chairman, good morning, Mrs Cryer. You are absolutely right; forced marriage is seen by us as a trigger for much of the violence that we end up prosecuting. As you know, forced marriage itself is not a criminal offence. However, false imprisonment, abduction (the kind of things that happened to Shazia), violence, duress and psychological harm - all of those things could potentially be criminal offences. You will know there are examples up and down the country, many presently ongoing, where we are prosecuting vigorously, robustly cases which would perhaps surround a forced marriage, but enable us, using the current legislation to prosecute, we hope, successfully. I am not overly concerned about the legislation; I think we have more than enough legislation available to be able to prosecute these crimes as effectively as we are. I also concur totally with Commander Allen about the level of knowledge of officers: 100,000 police officers, 8,000 prosecutors - you cannot expect everybody to know everything about everything. However, we recognise there are large numbers of people who are better informed now than they ever were. The main obstacle, quite frankly, Mrs Cryer, is the lack of awareness, the lack of education, I guess, around this issue. As much as I have been talking about it - and Commander Allen, Shazia and others, and yourself for many years - there are still people who are surprised by it. There is a need to make sure that everybody is familiar with the issues, everybody is aware that this is an issue not of honour, it is an issue of power and control - male power over female behaviour - ultimately, as long as you put it in the context of human rights, and not just women's rights, if people are prepared to listen. Until we can get to a situation, as Shazia pointed out, where the educationalists, people working in education, people working as health professionals and others, spot and identify the triggers which potentially will lead to a forced marriage or to honour-based violence, then we are limited, because the evidence is not going to come to us. Also, on the other aspect, awareness, of course, the victim or witnesses themselves are reluctant to come forward. It may be necessary for the others, who have a duty to care towards them, i.e. the health professional, the teacher, the headmistress, or headmaster, to actually bring it to the attention of the authorities in a way that they, perhaps, would not. At the moment, I am not convinced that is happening routinely up and down the country. There are many examples; Shazia's may have happened ten years ago but ten years later I can point to many examples right now where the educationalist, a teacher, perhaps inadvertently, as in the case of Heshu Yunes, informed the parents that there was some reason why she was missing school, which ultimately led to her death. So you have the inadvertent and you have the unconscious, really, lack of awareness. That said, great news (I think Commander Allen said it); whilst we have not shared all the good factors that have come out of Banaz and Zafar Aqbal (?) (another major case that we dealt with last year), other areas around the country are picking it up very quickly of their own volition. I was in Cleveland just before Christmas where they have launched their own hotline. Cleveland you would not imagine to be a hotbed of honour-based violence and forced marriage, but in the month since that hotline became active 90 'phone calls and 22 active investigations. These are places that are running with it themselves. They recognise how important it is that they take the lead, and they are taking the lead.

Q131 Mrs Cryer: You do not feel that the CPS, or the police for that matter, have a problem in not wishing to be too clear about certain prosecutions, because they do not want to be accused of discriminating against certain ... That is behind ----

Mr Afzal: Many, many years ago, thank God. I think it was a former Solicitor General who said political sensitivity is no excuse for moral blindness. We are not interested in the idea of sensitivities here because, ultimately, we are talking about child protection, victim protection, and homicide - serious offences taking place - hidden victims and hidden perpetrators. You will know the figures: you will know that three times as many Asian women commit suicide as opposed to white women from this country; you will know that just in the line between Slough and Southall 80 women killed themselves in the last year, and you can work out for yourself the ethnicity, perhaps, of those individuals. So suicide and self-harm; again, these are hidden victims. We are not interested in hidden victims; we are about bringing them out into the open, and I am not in the slightest bit concerned about being criticised for being discriminatory or racist, or whatever that might be.

Q132 Mrs Cryer: I understand there are specialist training courses for CPS solicitors so far as domestic violence is concerned. Do you have anything similar for honour-based crimes and forced marriages?

Mr Afzal: Yes. We are now piloting in four areas - West Yorkshire being one of them, West Midlands, four boroughs in London and Lancashire - specialist prosecutors. These are people we have identified who are in a position to use their knowledge that we have given them and which they have picked up from other sources, and we are also giving them special guidance, and they are working in those areas to be able to deliver a better service to their local police services. Once we have finished the pilot, which we hope to finish in three months' time, we will look then and share best practice, deliver guidance and see whether or not we can identify further specialists up and down the country.

Q133 Chairman: Commander Allen has a quick point.

Commander Allen: I just thought it was important to reiterate the point about (let us call it) political correctness or political sensitivity shaping operations. We have come to learn that whatever we do we will attract criticism. I led the raids into Slough on Thursday of last week and spent all of yesterday being accused of stigmatising and targeting a particular community. If we do not take action we get accused of not taking action because we are frightened of taking on cultural issues. Our view is that we target criminality. Our view is that our responsibility is to identify and protect victims, and we are very, very clear about that being the focus of all our interventions.

Q134 Mr Winnick: You should carry out your duties and not worry about unnecessary and irrelevant criticism. That is what we would like you to do, and I am sure you do it day-in and day-out.

Commander Allen: Absolutely.

Q135 David Davies: Mr Afzal, yesterday I spoke to somebody about the Forced Marriage Unit and I was told that the CPS had figures showing that in Bedford alone 300 girls aged between 13 and 16 have disappeared from school rolls. I do not know why the CPS would have that ----

Mr Afzal: Exactly. It is not the CPS. We are aware of the figures.

Q136 David Davies: Can you tell me what the figures are nationally, or what you are aware of?

Mr Afzal: I cannot give you those figures.

Q137 David Davies: Can you write to us about that. That would be very helpful.

Mr Afzal: On the main point that Mr Davies makes, we are not just working with victims of crime, we are looking at potential victims of crime. We have identified thousands, probably, of young girls between those ages, 13 and 16, who are no longer in education. Very many of them are, allegedly, being home-schooled and very many of them are not being home-schooled at all because there is no means of being able to check what is happening to them. Very many of them will end up being - well, they are victims already, I would say - victims of forced marriage or honour-based violence. I know that a number of institutions are receiving freedom of information requests to get the full information. At the moment I do not have that in the way that you would like, but I am sure we can give you what we have.

Chairman: If you could do that, that would be very helpful.

Q138 Mrs Dean: Commander Allen, do you agree that honour-based violence and forced marriage still remains very under-reported? Have you got any data on the extent of violence and forced marriage? Could you say whether it includes both male and female - I think 15% male has been mentioned somewhere?

Commander Allen: We have a significant amount of data in relation to forced marriage and honour-based violence that is reported to us. It is very difficult, because of the way that our data recording systems work or do not work across the country and their consistency, to understand how much is reported to us. We work on a figure which suggests it is around 500 cases shared between us and the Forced Marriage Unit per year. Is it under-reported? Massively. What we will never know, or cannot know at the moment, is the extent to which it is under-reported. If you were to ask me to hazard a guess, if the generally accepted statistic is that a victim will suffer 35 experiences of domestic violence before they report, then I suspect if you multiplied our reporting by 35 times you may be somewhere near where people's experience is at, but we simply do not know. We recognise that the issues are those in relation to the police about trust and confidence; there are also issues about whether the criminal justice system and process actually provides people with the kind of outcomes that they believe that they want. Clearly, it is one of the key strategic aims of ACPO's work to find ways of developing trust and confidence. The key way that we do that goes back to my first answer, which is that every single one of our people gets it absolutely right every time they come into contact with a victim.

Q139 Mrs Dean: How are you working, or how are the police, in general, working, with communities to overcome the under-reporting?

Commander Allen: I think it is fair to say that since about 2003, with some work that was led by Commander Andy Baker and DAC Carol Howlett, for the first time, I think, a range of agencies and community groups, voluntary sector groups, were pulled together in order to start to understand the issue and work together. It is a field populated by deeply passionate and committed people with very strong views, so those relationships are always dynamic and productive, but I think we are now in a place where we have productive relationships with a range of community organisations. I hope that they would say that we listen and respond to the issues they raise with us. However, I do think, in terms of the Committee's considerations, one of the things that is on my shopping list around the role of government, is that I firmly believe that the Government needs to develop a clear and comprehensive cross-sector communications strategy, an engagement strategy. To tie that in, in my work I have folders on my shelves, one of which says: "Crime Reduction Strategy"; one says: "Community Engagement Strategy"; one says "Community Cohesion Strategy"; one says: "Preventing Violent Extremism Strategy", and one says: "Community Justice Strategy. All those things, really, are facets of the same diamond. I believe there is a real need now not to articulate those engagement strategies but to bring them together in a really coherent way. When you begin to look at all those different strands of engagement you begin to understand that issues around honour-based violence and forced marriage fit into each of those. There is a real crying need for that bringing together of an engagement approach.

Q140 Mrs Dean: How do you respond to claims from specialist organisations that current risk assessment models are not suitable for use with honour-based violence, and that the police are not prepared to provide adequate protection to people at risk of honour-based violence?

Commander Allen: I think those are two different questions. The first, in relation to the risk assessment process, I am sure, although I did not hear his evidence, that Chief Constable Brian Moore would have talked to you last week, or whenever, about the work that the Domestic Abuse Portfolio (to which I report) is doing around trying to develop a consistent and single risk assessment model across the country. I imagine he talked to you about the "specs plus" (?) model. I do not know whether that means anything to you, but that is the risk assessment model that is currently being used by about 29 forces across England and Wales, and we are trying to make that the basis for risk assessment across, certainly, England and Wales. That model is constantly updated and has been recently updated by Laura Richards to include specifically the appropriate questions and the appropriate factors to take into account honour-based violence. Now, there is still, inevitably, debate about whether we have got that right, but it is an explicit aim of the work to develop that risk assessment model, to make sure that it caters for victims of honour-based violence. The other piece of work that goes alongside that, of course, is not just police forces not using the same risk assessment model but, perhaps more crucially, the range of different agencies involved in public protection arrangements not each choosing the same risk assessment model themselves. So the work that is being done and supported through ACPO is around trying to make sure that a consistent risk assessment model, as in the Marac model, is available to all agencies, which encompasses the particular dynamics of honour-based violence.

Q141 Mrs Dean: Lastly from me, the Metropolitan Police are undertaking a review of, I think, 109 cases of murder, suicide and missing persons over a ten-year period across the country. Could you tell us what progress has been made in that review, and are there staffing issues? Have you got enough staff running that review?

Commander Allen: It sounds from your question as though you are well-informed about the person who began that review, Laura Richards, who is responsible for much of building the evidence base over the last few years. Laura began that review two years ago and has since moved on from the Met and now is working as a consultant to Brian Moore in the ACPO role. That piece of work continues but I think it would be fair to say (and I would not sit here as a spokesperson for the Met because I have my ACPO hat on) that the way that that piece of work has evolved is that, rather than producing a single document that will identify particular lessons, it has become more of a process by which the murder review process feeds into lessons learned. The other aspect of it is the cold case review and the way in which cold cases get brought forward for re-investigation. I can say with certainty that the Met has a process, which is wider than just honour-based violence, which is specifically about how do we bring forward appropriate cold cases based on additional evidence and based on the requirement to resubmit forensic samples, given new technology. Those cases will form very much part of that process. The issue in terms of staffing, of course, is that cold case investigations tend to be done when the capacity is there and not being used on current cases. So, of course, there are resource issues - you would be astonished if I sat here and said the British Police Service has no resource issues that we want government to address - and there are competing priorities, but the work goes on.

Q142 Mrs Dean: How many of the 109 have been investigated?

Commander Allen: Would it be helpful to let you know on paper?

Chairman: That would be very helpful.

Q143 Martin Salter: A couple of quick questions to Mr Afzal. I note that the CPS has brought in enhanced electronic monitoring since April 2007, flagging up cases, and, also, that we have these four pilots on forced marriage and honour-based violence in, I think, Lancashire, London, West Midlands and West Yorkshire. Mr Afzal, how many cases has this process flagged up, just so that we can get an idea? Secondly, I know you have not finished the pilots yet, but what are the kind of emerging lessons, if any, you would like to share with us?

Mr Afzal: Thank you. In terms of quantity, I think it is impossible to say right now, largely because we have given an undertaking that we will not talk about it until we finish the pilot in March. Nonetheless, I think the point being made about under-reporting and under-investigation and, subsequently, under-prosecuting will be borne out by the pilot in that respect. In terms of the emerging findings, we have recognised that there is a reluctance (we know already) by victims to come forward. What can we do to make it easier for them? We have identified certain things that we can do; not just the simple, special measures and those kinds of things that you have already heard about, but what else we can do. I think Shazia made the point very validly earlier on that the moment they engage the authorities, as such, their risk is escalated substantially, which is where it varies from your standard domestic violence crime. Undoubtedly, (and Shazia is, thankfully, not one of those) they will require support and, perhaps, protection for the rest of their lives. I am sure you will know this, Mrs Cryer, from examples in your constituency. That is something we have become aware of. There is also a recognition that if you can get 22 actual investigations in Cleveland in a month, for example, then, perhaps, there is more work to be done locally with the communities, because that is one means by which you can do that. I listened to what Commander Allen was saying about the community response: you get two responses, one of which is a very positive one, where young people get together and talk about how horrible this is, and what we can do about it and what they should do about it. Then you get the response (I will give you two examples) from a faith leader whom I asked to talk about this during a ceremony, telling me: "I have to deal with my congregation every day; you only come here once a year" - so immediately saying he was not going to talk about it because he thinks he would lose his congregation. The second example is of a women's group, which wanted to set up a memorial tree for each victim of honour killings over the last few years, hearing from within the community that somebody would chop them down. When you have that kind that obstacle to face is it no wonder that victims or witnesses are reluctant to come forward? However, working together, all of us together, I think we are able to give them more confidence to deal with these cases better than we have ever done before.

Q144 Martin Salter: Thank you. I note (and this is really a question across to Margaret who is leading on this) that our inquiry is going to run well into March on this subject, and your pilot ends in March as well.

Mr Afzal: We will do our very best, Mr Salter.

Q145 Martin Salter: What I am asking is would you be prepared to share some further conclusions with us as our inquiry comes to fruition at the end of your pilot scheme?

Mr Afzal: Absolutely.

Q146 Martin Salter: One last question: there is a suggestion rattling around from ACPO that where the exacting standards for criminal proof in an honour-based killing or honour-based violence case cannot be met, there may be some scope of going down the civil route. Does the CPS have a view?

Mr Afzal: We are having very early discussions about that. There are some legal obstacles, the first of which is that we do not actually own our statements; a victim makes a statement for the purpose of criminal proceedings and we are not at liberty to simply hand it over to a civil lawyer, for example. There are some legal obstacles that we have to overcome, but we are certainly in discussions with ACPO about whether that could be done.

Martin Salter: Thank you.

Q147 Mr Streeter: Mr Afzal, do you think that forced marriages should be a criminal offence - forcing someone into marriage?

Mr Afzal: There was a very, very detailed consultation, as you know, Mr Streeter, a couple of years ago, and two-thirds of the people consulted - lots of people who are in this room who work in this field more than I ever do - said that it would actually drive it underground; that people would be reluctant to come forward. As I said at the outset, I have every offence available to me to be able to prosecute these types of crime, so simply having a forced marriage one would not make it any easier for me.

Q148 Mr Streeter: Thank you very much. Has the 2004 Act, the new crime about people being aware and not telling, helped you in prosecutions?

Mr Afzal: Right this minute - I am not able to discuss it - there is a very, very important case taking place in West Yorkshire around this subject itself. Yes, it does, because I think a lot of people have said: "I couldn't do anything about it", but if we can now demonstrate that you could have done somebody about it and protected somebody and you did not, you, yourself, can be guilty of an offence. That, I think, is a very strong tool for us.

Q149 Mr Streeter: Finally, from me, are you happy with the new powers that you have been given in the 2007 Act? It is very early days but do you think they are going to make a difference to your work?

Commander Allen: I think it is a mixed picture, sir. More tools with which to protect victims is a good thing. I think the most powerful thing, in terms of the response of agencies, is that it puts the guidance on a statutory footing. That cannot come quick enough, in my view, and I hope that government is relentless in making sure that that proceeds. At the moment the proposal is a pilot later in the year; I am not sure whether we need a pilot or whether we just need to get on with it, but I think that will mark the step change, particularly in some forces which may be not quite as advanced as others, in terms of sorting their act out. I think, powerfully, because it sends a very clear message. So, yes, huge supporters. A couple of options, I think are missed, in the piece of legislation (and you may think I am chancing my arm): a statutory duty to share information, which I know Brian Moore would have talked to you about, is a key step forward. If you think back to Shazia's experience, if agencies were under a statutory duty to share particular information then that is a good thing. I am not sure how this legislation would have done this but, once again, we have another piece of legislation in relation to these types of issues that does not begin to touch on people with no recourse to public funds. I also thought there was an opportunity, maybe, to mandate into the performance frameworks that operate across crime and disorder organisations, in particular in relation to Local Area Agreements, which we are all busy negotiating at the moment, some element of that mandatory performance framework that pushed us into activity around forced marriage and honour-based violence. So a mixed picture. Yes, of course, we welcome it and we look forward to the next iteration.

Chairman: Thank you. Finally, Margaret Moran has questions to both of you.

Q150 Margaret Moran: We have heard from various evidence that many of the victims and survivors of (I am not going to call it "honour-based") forced marriage and the consequences fall outside the remit of a lot of the policies on domestic violence and fall outside of the specialist domestic violence courts, for example, because they are under the age of 18. What can we do to try and address that?

Mr Afzal: Our old domestic violence definition, which is still in being, talks about "irrespective of age" - victims and perpetrators. So we do not take an issue. Obviously, if they are under 18 we will deal with them as a child protection issue through the child protection processes. I am not overly concerned about the age aspect. We have enough awareness, education and knowledge within our organisation - and I am sure the police have - to be able to tackle them regardless of their age.

Commander Allen: Our approach has been to try and balance the interesting relationship between domestic abuse, in its most general form, and the particularities around forced marriage and honour-based violence. We are of the view that there is some value still for the police service in identifying a specific definition, separate from the domestic abuse definition, which will be part of the new strategy. A huge amount of consultation; it is very difficult to get consensus on it but we are going ahead with a single definition which we hope will address some of the issues around data collection, in particular, around the country.

Mr Afzal: Going back to the other point you made about how it squares with domestic violence more generally, we keep it within our domestic violence strategy but it will obviously be encompassed by our violence against women strategy, although there are male victims, which I think you are aware of - 15% of all the forced marriage cases dealt with. I have seen an assessment being carried out in your constituency, Ms Moran, and I know that this is an issue that people do not want to talk about, for whatever reason, but it is alive. I have learnt, particularly, over the last two or three years how organised many of these things are. It is not a case of one perpetrator on one victim, which we all tend to think of as domestic violence, but very many cases - very many cases - are all organised; half-a-dozen people. The Banaz Mahmoud case which Mr Winnick mentioned - six or eight people were involved, potentially, in that kind of scenario. That kind of organisation requires an organised response, requires multi-agency responses and requires us to be aware that it is very easy for us to go after the man with the bloodied knife but what about the people behind the man with the bloodied knife? We have made it very clear that we will go after everybody that is potentially responsible for a particular crime, because ultimately you are all as guilty as the person with the knife.

Q151 Margaret Moran: Just following that point, how much research has been done? As you rightly say, this is highly organised, often based on plans and very extended families. I have actually got in the middle of some of this at various points in Luton. In Luton we have done some research, which Dr Nasir Karnum has done for quality networks and the response from the community itself is that there should be a mediation process, which most of us agree is extremely dangerous. Can you clarify whether there is any work around that clan-based organisation and how we can ensure that the perception that mediation is going to solve a problem is overcome?

Mr Afzal: On that latter point, thankfully, I do not get involved in relation to investigations, but those people who do, and you know them better than I, will tell you that mediation is the last thing you should consider because there are often families who will say anything they like in order to get the individual back to enable them to harm them further. So I think that is absolutely true. In terms of research more generally, there is a great deal of research that I am aware of it, because I contribute to it and I am sure Commander Allen does too, and others do as well, on very, very general issues, some of which highlight the organised nature of this crime - some of it highlighting the international nature of it. In fact, you can probably involve more than one jurisdiction in many of these criminal offences. However, I do not think there is anything specific on this sort of clan-based issue that you have highlighted. Perhaps there is a need for that.

Q152 Margaret Moran: Mr Chairman, there seems to be quite a lot of issues around guidance and reports out there, which seem to be coming to a point of conclusion. Could we, perhaps, have a round-up of what those reports are so that we can ensure that we have all the best information that is available? That is just a point. Largely to Steve Allen, if I may: obviously, the point has been very ably made here today that the level of risk is extraordinarily high at the point at which survivors reach the criminal justice system. Are there any special measures which should be put in place over and above what is currently there? Should you be looking at things like covert intelligence and witness protection schemes in order to enhance the protection?

Commander Allen: One of the features of this work that our research tells us is that, by a small amount, the majority of reports to front counters of police stations are from someone who is in fear of becoming a victim. Of course, that, for us, is not in the mainstream of our work; most of work is where people have become a victim. So in terms of accessing things like witness protection programmes and things like that - no crime, no witness, therefore outside the criteria. One of the pieces of work that we have already begun that, again, is a key part of the new strategy is trying to get a much more structured approach to an equivalent to the witness protection programme that can be accessed specifically by victims of this type of crime. We have (again, I will make sure it is included in the schedule of documents) published, in ACPO, in the summer of last year, what we call a "menu of tactical intervention" for officers dealing with these cases, which sets out the whole range of different options available that will include things like covert intelligence-gathering, that will include things like the measures we need to take to protect people - how to put together a safety plan. That guidance is very detailed. I will make sure it is available to you, you can have a look at it and if you have any further questions we can come back to it.

Q153 Chairman: That would be very helpful.

Commander Allen: May I make one more point on that, which I think is an important one, which is to highlight the extent, in that initial response, to which the statutory agencies absolutely depend on the contribution of the voluntary sector. The importance of organisations like Karma Nirvana, to us, in identifying for us what is really happening in a case and, overcoming, sometimes, those issues about awareness and knowledge cannot be understated. I am not here to advocate on their behalf, simply to point out the importance of what they do and the level of resources on which they do what we require of them. I think there are some real challenges about the whole funding regime that operates around the voluntary sector in an absolutely critical piece of work that does save people's lives.

Q154 Margaret Moran: When you are coming back to us on the guidance and, indeed, the action plan that you referred to, could you tell us the timetable for implementation and, also, what monitoring is being put in place for that? You do not need to answer that now, but if you could write to us.

Commander Allen: Except to say I do not want to leave you with the impression that we have lots of stuff that we have not put out there and are not operating. All the stuff I have talked about, with the exception of the new ACPO strategy, is out there as a resource for the police service and is in use already.

Q155 Margaret Moran: Perhaps we could have a little note on that. Could I ask one final question of Mr Afzal? Just a congratulation to the CPS because I understood you took a case on, if you like, forced suicide. We have heard evidence from a survivor of forced marriage that she just feels that she is going to be forced into suicide because of this ongoing situation. That case was not successful, but well done for trying. What more can you do to try and draw attention and have an impact on that?

Mr Afzal: Absolutely. That was my case - R v D. (?) It has established the principle now in British law that you can be guilty of driving someone to commit suicide. That in itself is a wonderful principle to have. What we have done since that time is shared some thinking around that with coroners around the country through the Secretary of the Coroners' Society. So there is greater awareness now. Undoubtedly, they will identify, first, the kind of cases that need, perhaps, further investigation and, ultimately, need prosecution. We are learning from what we did not do right in relation to that particular case, given the fact that it was the first of its kind, but you can rest assured it will not be the last.

Margaret Moran: Thank you very much.

Chairman: Thank you, Ms Moran. Mr Davies has one, very final, question.

Q156 David Davies: A very simple, yes or no, question to all three of you, perhaps starting with Ms Qayum. Is there an argument that we should be examining raising the legal age of marriage in this country from 16 to 18?

Ms Qayum: I think so, definitely.

Mr Afzal: Personally, a number of cases that we deal with involve 16 or 17-year-olds. Yes.

Commander Allen: Yes.

Chairman: Commander Allen, Mr Afzal and Ms Qayum, again, thank you very much for giving evidence to us today. You did promise us some evidence in writing, and we would be most grateful if this could be sent as soon as possible. Thank you.