RT HON CAROLINE FLINT MP AND MR DAVID MORRIS

19 MAY 2008

  Q204 Chair: Thank you very much, Minister. We are a bit thin on the ground, I think there are people at the by-election, particularly our Conservative members, apart from ones in the Chamber.

  Caroline Flint: I have just come back myself.

  Q205  Chair: Excellent. If I could start, Minister, the Government has very ambitious targets on its housing, transport, environment and regeneration targets. Apart from the slow-down in the economy being a bit of a problem, how do you think that the Government is going to be able to meet those targets if the planning profession does in fact face labour shortages of 46% by 2012 as some estimate?

  Caroline Flint: I would say a few things in relation to that. First of all, obviously, before I came into the Department, there has been some good work happening over the last few years to encourage the flows in, into the courses that exist, I think roughly about 1,500 new entrants, where it was 800-900 a few years back, so that is good. But I think clearly, and other people have raised this with me, there is a concern about that generation of people who might be exiters from the profession, retiring and what have you, and what do we do about that? Again, I think some of the programmes that people are able to do actually in the local authorities, for those technicians and admin people to upgrade their skills, I think that has been a good development. I think where it is appropriate for other people within a local authority, who again could take advantage of distance learning as well, that is another opportunity which I think we have tried to facilitate, and I know you have had the ASC in before to speak to you. But I think there is another aspect of this as well, which is about how planning is valued within the local authority, and given the opportunity we have given through the planning delivery grant, other resourcing we provide, fees for planning applications—which of course is not ringfenced, that is for a local authority to decide what they want to do with that money that they gain from their applications—is how, within the local authority, planning is valued, and in doing so, how you make sure you have the right people in the right place, but as importantly as that, the right teams in place. I do think, and in the last three months in this job, I have become even more acutely aware that there are a number of people who are not necessarily planners but who have skills to offer to the process, and I think there is a task here to be smarter in how the function is supported and also planners are grown.

  Q206  Chair: Just on that point about the status of planners, there has been a suggestion that every local authority should have a chief planning officer. Is that the Government's view?

  Caroline Flint: Well, that is a matter for local authorities to decide. We have just appointed our chief planner in the Department, Steve Quartermain is taking up his post. I certainly feel that it should have a status that is reflected in terms of the importance; as a function, whether they want a chief planning officer, that might be for them to decide. I asked a question the other day actually, I did not get the full answer back, about how many chief executives are actually planners by profession compared to a few years back. I did not get the answer to that as yet, but I know that Richard McCarthy, my senior director, one of the things he has been doing over the last few months is actually going out and meeting chief executives, I suppose in many respects to talk up how important this is, because so much of what I am working on at the moment, whether it is in terms of the housing targets or sustainable communities, it really does touch every aspect of a local authority, in terms of having that vision about your needs for a community, both in housing, in terms of regeneration and development, how you are building green spaces in those communities, cohesive communities and neigbourhoods and so forth, that it is hard actually to think about where planning does not have a role in all of that. Therefore, the smarter aspect of how different departments work together I think is an important part, as well as addressing a serious issue about the professionals themselves and how we can not only have them coming in but where we might gain professionals to, if you like, create and sustain planning for the future.

  Q207  Andrew George: In the Government's memorandum, it says that the shortage of planning capacity is historically rooted and stems from underinvestment during the 1980s and 1990s, and this was identified in Lord Rogers' report in 1999. Given that it was identified so early, why is it that labour shortage is still so chronic and persistent and in fact growing at the moment?

  Caroline Flint: Well, as I said earlier, I think the response to some of that has been to boost the numbers going into the profession in terms of graduates and entry, and I think that has shown that there has been a significant improvement, I think it has gone up by something like 40%, so I think that is a sign that is positive, but I think again, part of the work of the Department, but other organisations that help with this, whether it is providing through the Planning Advisory Service in IDeA or through the Academy of Sustainable Communities, it is about how you actually also make sure that planning is valued in the local authorities, the staff feel valued, that they stay there. We know that planning is one of those disciplines in local government which always has, if you like, a tension between those who stay in the public sector and those that go to the private sector. They are not exclusive to that in local government, but I think there is clearly, if you like, a labour market tension there that does not exist in other parts of local authorities, and we are just trying to do what we can, as I say, to support the status of the profession, but also in different ways, whether it is the bursaries or whether it is training within local authorities, and with the resources we give back to local authorities to support their activities to make it happen, but I have to say local authorities have to also take some responsibility for how they see this work within their authority, and how they support it and encourage it and value it.

  Q208  Andrew George: If it is down to local authorities and you can wash your hands of any responsibility for the lack or the shortage of planners in local authorities, surely you would accept that the government still sets or is able to steer the budgets, is able to give local authorities, if you like, plaudits for good practice, is able to steer and encourage, and you also debate and meet with local authorities, so surely you are able to perhaps set targets, to actually improve on the success of local authorities in achieving these objectives?

  Caroline Flint: I think what we try to do is support it in a number of different ways. For example, we have over 500 planners being funded through university, we have 24,000 practitioners who access the ASC learning programmes. We obviously have the Planning Advisory Service that supports, we have ATLAS that has worked on 47 development projects. As I say, we do try and support in different ways local authorities for both best practice and enabling their planners and other staff that are important to the planning function to improve their skills. We have given, through the planning delivery grant, £605 million over five years; we have £510 million over the next three years through the housing and planning delivery grant; and planning fees, as I said, we have seen, in 2005, the fees increase by 25%, they have increased again by 23%, taking planning fee income for local authorities to £290 million. So in a lot of different ways, both enabling people to get qualified, whether that is a full-time course or distance learning, we have tried to facilitate that, and I think have had some good outcomes. In terms of the value of planning and support to have the very best, we do that in a number of different ways, and I have to say there are some excellent local authorities out there, both large and smaller local authorities, who clearly show that smarter working can have good outcomes. And finally, in terms of resources, the overall resources have gone up in the sector as well, but at some point, and this is not passing the buck, it is about devolution, local authorities also have to think about how they are going to support the function within their own organisation, and the staff and other allied teams that have a contribution to make.

  Q209  Andrew George: You have listed a catalogue of a lot of inputs, a very impressive list of inputs there, but over recent years, the status of planners has unquestionably fallen, and senior planners have been leaving local authority planning departments in their droves, so where has it all gone wrong?

  Caroline Flint: I do not think it is where it has all gone wrong, I think we have had a period of intense activity in terms of building and planning and development, and we have seen that over the last eleven years. As I mentioned earlier, I think within that, there has always been a particular issue around the private sector and the public sector, and trying to find that flow and balance right in terms of where professionals go. For example, we have taken action for the bursary from this year, for 2008-09, to make a condition against the bursary that in the first five years of employment in the sector, at least two years would be in the public sector, for those graduates coming out. So we have tried to learn, if you like, from the past, and think about where it is reasonable, given the investment and support we are giving, to expect some input into that sector, but I think again the other part of this is there are things we still need to look at about this balance in terms of where planners are, whether they are in the private sector or in the public sector, but I also think as well looking at other mechanisms that can achieve better outcomes. Certainly, you know, looking at some case studies over the last few months, there are some very good examples where pre-application engagement has actually led to some good outcomes, it has led to some more resource for the local authority to spend on the planning function, and actually has helped the process, because the other side of this is: how do you motivate people? Part of the motivation has to be: does the process make sense, do they think they will get satisfaction out of it, and does that make them keen to stay on and continue to work in the public sector? I think that is another side of what we are looking at in terms of reforms that we think have good outcomes for those working, for those applying as well.

  Q210  Mr Betts: You just made reference to the bursary scheme, which most people think is an excellent idea, but could not the Government have foreseen the likelihood that without any requirement to work in the public sector, the majority of people on the bursary scheme will simply not work for local government? Has that not been a bit of time lost in terms of the scheme?

  Caroline Flint: David might want to say a bit more on this, but I think we have had about 51% actually going to work in the public sector bursary scheme. We would like to see it more than that, but actually --

  Q211  Mr Betts: We had a figure of 36% went into local government.

  Mr Morris: Well, it is 51% in the public sector, because obviously there are a lot of planning jobs in other agencies, like the Environment Agency and Regional Development Agencies and so on, that also employ planners, so that might account for the difference.

  Q212  Mr Betts: Perhaps we could have a breakdown of the figures, because we have slightly different ones here.

  Caroline Flint: Yes, that is fine.

  Q213  Chair: Which actually came from the Government memorandum, so I think the Government needs to agree with itself.

  Caroline Flint: In the public sector, just over half of the graduates have gone into that area. Again, you learn from different things, this was something which was felt that given the resource that was going in, it was another way we could underpin and sustain those skills and those talents for those young people going into local authorities.

  Mr Morris: Part of the reason when we started this was to try and attract as many people as possible into the profession and so did not want to place too many restrictions on it. It has actually been highly successful, and we are now putting these criteria on people coming in through the scheme, so that more of them hopefully will spend time in the public sector.

  Q214  Mr Betts: Do we have any figures overall of the number of people who are going into the planning profession now, in net terms, over the last couple of years, and how many specifically have gone into local government? What we are hearing is all right, there may be some going in at one end, but there is actually an outflow at the other as well. Do we know whether there has been an increase in people, as planning professionals, working in local government and the public sector?

  Mr Morris: There has been an increase in the number of graduates coming through, which has gone up by 50% since the bursary scheme came in. There are actually more people coming through than there are bursaries, so it has had a knock-on effect on other people who are not actually getting bursaries, which is also very good. There has been an increase in the number of people employed in planning in local authorities, because of the increase in work, I would have to get hold of the actual numbers.

  Q215  Mr Betts: It might be helpful to have some numbers there. Is there more that the Government can do in the short-term? Everyone can see that you work in a bursary scheme and over a period of time things will improve, but actually in the short term, we have some very big issues to tackle: the housing programme, regeneration schemes, a whole range of other major construction-type activities. So in the next three or four years, are there things that can be done to improve the situation in terms of planners? At the same time, we know there are quite a few planners reaching retirement age, you almost have this gap, you have new people coming in, you have quite a lot of experienced planners, and a gap in the middle, but as some of those experienced planners drop out the other end, there are going to be additional problems there, are there not?

  Caroline Flint: In terms of those currently working in local authorities, one of the things is whether or not there are certain aspects of the planning function that could be better done by technicians and admin staff within the teams and departments, as well as the other side of that, whether some of those employees would like to upgrade their skills through the distance learning programmes. I think again, some aspects of planning today, in terms of strategic planning, regeneration and the wider vision for communities, I think there probably are other people who are working in local authorities who probably have a role to play in that, and maybe one aspect of that is how they work much better together across the departments in a local authority. We know that local authorities, for example, do employ people involved in community engagement; again, those people might have something to offer as part of that planning process, not to deal with the details of what a professional planner would do, but certainly bring something to bear that could inform the debate at a community level and add to the process, I think. Again, there is not a one size fits all, but I think there are certain factors of good practice. Some of this was brought out by the Egan Report about communications, about leadership, about more effective working together across different disciplines, that there is something we could do in the short-term on, and in fact some local authorities are doing. Some smaller local authorities, for example, have sought to work in partnership with each other, so that actually, they are working together on planning applications that affect maybe more than one district. Again, I think there are some aspects of this that are just about, say, looking at the best practice, which obviously we do try to get out there in various forms, every single day, but again, we need, with partners like the LGA, and hopefully with the HCA as well, to see how we can get better at that, and get that best practice taken up, because some of it is not about inventing something, it is already out there.

  Q216  Mr Betts: I suppose the bottom line is do you have any concerns that any of the Government's key programmes are going to be hindered, stalled, delayed, reduced in size by a shortage of planners?

  Caroline Flint: I do not think so per se, I think the thing is about any given day, what do we have, at the moment it is something like 600,000 applications a year, some of that is about looking at how more effective local planning authorities could be. For example, from this autumn, in a number of areas, permitted development will take out of the planning process some of those applications that come in at the moment. As I say, we are looking through the HCA—and I have had discussions with Sir Bob Kerslake about this—about how better with the ASC as part of the HCA (ATLAS going in there as well) we can improve more on particularly the big developments where extra support might be needed, not taking away from local authorities but trying maybe to align better some of our supportive services to get better outcomes. But we are still focused as best we can on all our different big projects.

  Q217  Emily Thornberry: Was it an unintended and probably unforeseen consequence of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act, with a significant change in the planning system away from development and control planning towards wider spatial planning for communities, that the planning officer status has been undermined? We have heard witnesses talking about tick box culture and targets and that sort of thing, so has that been one of the reasons?

  Mr Morris: I actually think it is the opposite, in that what the 2004 Act did was introduce this idea of spatial planning, which is trying to move away from planning as being a purely regulatory function, and it should be taking it right to the heart of the local authority, and setting out what the long-term vision should be. What we are trying to do, and we have been doing a whole programme with the Planning Advisory Service, which is trying to instil something called development management within local authorities, which is getting away from development control, which is this tick box yes/no procedure, and trying to think about how planning is going to deliver this vision which you are setting out: are you talking to developers about what their plans are? Are you doing pre-application discussions to ensure that these projects are moving forward? What are you doing after planning permission has been granted to ensure that they are actually built? So it is trying to open out the profession, so it is actually really about delivering what a place looks like over 20 years and getting it out of this regulatory box. That is a big change for a lot of planning departments, and that is part of this culture change which a lot of the evidence you have had has talked about, but that is partly what we are trying to address here.

  Q218  Emily Thornberry: But you saw the evidence that we had had from Lindsay Frost of Lewes District Council, who cited that as being one of the ways in which the skills held by older planning officers were swept away, with the sort of things they used to do just not being valued any more.

  Mr Morris: I do not think it is being swept away, but it is a question of adapting to change, and the environment in which planners are working is changing the whole time, not just the regulatory environment which we are setting, but also the way that business operates and the way development operates, and planners need to adapt and change to that as well. There is a lot of resource going in, in terms of training and help and best practice that we have just been talking about, to try and help planners do that.

  Q219  Emily Thornberry: We have been given an amazingly long list of agencies that have been given the job of helping to develop planning skills. We have DCLG; the Academy of Sustainable Communities; ATLAS, that has already been referred to; the Planning Advisory Service; the Improvement and Development Agency for Local Government. I have another 10 on this list, it goes on and on. Is this a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth?

  Caroline Flint: Obviously a lot of different organisations are very protective of their own identity, obviously the ASC and ATLAS will be going into the Homes and Communities Agency, and they do have different roles. Then also we have CABE as well, and as you mentioned, the Planning Advisory Service too, and obviously you have another load on your list. I think part of what we are trying to look for, in the ones we directly, if you like, support, is where they are in terms of their connection to other things that happen. That is why I think actually the move into the HCA is a good idea for the two I mentioned, but also, I think even for those that are outside of that, what I would be quite interested in, and it would be interesting to hear your views when you produce your report, is how some of the work could be better aligned, because as an ex-local government officer myself, I suppose, you could imagine a scenario where with the best will in the world, you have competing organisations which are all about making the planning function work better and improve, and one week you are getting something from one organisation saying, "Come to this conference, come to that conference", and what have you, followed by another one the next week. So it's not against that, because again, it is quite different, say, for example, the ASC's work in terms of, if you like, the academic framework, and how that exists, and how that can be made more accessible for people, whether they are going into it fresh or they are already working in the area they want to refresh, or they are working in local government and they want to get into this discipline, as opposed to ATLAS dealing with major applications. But I think some alignment is worth looking at to make sure that we are not just creating organisations for the sake of it, and just ending up with lots of different voices all on the same issue which is supporting the function and trying to raise the quality, competing for space, because that is probably not the best thing that people working on the ground really need.