UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 281-ix

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

WELSH AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

GLOBALISATION AND ITS IMPACT ON WALES

Monday 14 May 2007

MS CHARLIE JONES and MS BARBARA HALE

COUNCILLOR ALED ROBERTS and MS GILLIAN GRAINGER

MR JOHN GALLANDERS, MS ALISON HILL and MS JANET WILLIAMS

(Evidence taken at North East Wales Institute of Higher Education, Wrexham, North Wales)

Evidence heard in Public Questions 653 - 751

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Welsh Affairs Committee

on Monday 14 May 2007

Members present

Dr Hywel Francis, in the Chair

Mr David Jones

Mr Martyn Jones

Mark Williams

________________

Memorandum submitted by T&G and TUC Wales

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Ms Charlie Jones, Project Manager Union Learning Organiser, transport and General Workers' Union and Ms Barbara Hale, Development Officer, TUC Wales, gave evidence.

Q653 Chairman: Good afternoon and thank you for your written evidence which was most helpful. In your memorandum you refer to "growing numbers of employees being brought into the area by employment agencies", what is your estimate of the extent of migrant labour in Wales?

Ms Hale: I attended a conference last week which estimated the number of registered Polish workers between the period 2005-07 was 17,000 in Wales.

Q654 Chairman: 170,000?

Ms Hale: 17,000.

Q655 Chairman: Are most migrant workers to Wales Polish? How has this pattern changed in recent years, and what further changes do you anticipate?

Ms Hale: At the moment they are mostly Polish, however there is a shift on a regular basis, as two to three years previously it was Portuguese and Spanish, but in the last few years there has been a shift.

Q656 Chairman: And what changes do you anticipate?

Ms Hale: Recruitment shifts from country to country, some employers recruit from a particular country within the EU. Some employers bring people in on six month contracts to fill gaps in labour.

Ms Jones: Recruitment is also made from Slovenia and Lithuania.

Q657 Mr M Jones: Thank you and good afternoon. You refer in your written paper to "intimidation and threats" faced by migrant workers. What more can you tell the Committee about this and what are the main problems faced by migrant workers in Wales?

Ms Jones: We are unable to persuade anyone to say anything publicly. One individual was bundled into a car and threatened at gun point. They are having illegal deductions from wages. Individuals have been charged extortionate rates through sub-contractors with regards to providing lifts to get them to work. The police have also not been helpful.

Q658 Mr M Jones: The problem is extortion.

Ms Jones: Absolutely.

Ms Hale: There is also a question about hot-bedding. Lots of people are living in one house, being charged £50 per week rent, and living in cramped conditions. The Gang Masters Licensing authority was supposed to include reasonable accommodation standards but this is not being enforced.

Q659 Mr M Jones: Horrendous. Are the police involved?

Ms Jones: The police have also been receiving threats.

Q660 Mr D Jones: If I could just come in with a supplementary here, are you aware of any threats to families in Poland?

Ms Jones: Family members have been threatened. One 55 year old who arrived in the UK having being offered work was told that no work was available, he complained, so he was threatened that if he went to the police he would be shot and that they would also get his family.

Q661 Mr D Jones: Was it the Poles issuing the threat?

Ms Jones: Yes.

Q662 Mr M Jones: In which sector is most migrant labour employed?

Ms Hale: They are employed mostly within the food processing industry, which is unionised. However a lot are employed within the hotel and fruit picking industries, similar to the work at home.

Ms Jones: Most of the workers are not in unions, and the majority are employed through agencies and not by the company. There seems to be some mistrust in the unions because of the links to communism.

Q663 Mr M Jones: Is the "casualisation" of labour a growing phenomenon? What implications are there for the core workforce?

Ms Hale: Core workers feel the issues with migrant labour agencies in general undermines their position. Casualisation is prevalent with the migrant worker force, most of the jobs which are filled by migrant labour are because there are not enough people here to do them.

Ms Jones: But that presumption is fuelled by the media.

Q664 Mr M Jones: To what do you attribute the "shortfall in local supply of labour" which you refer to in your written paper?

Ms Hale: Research at our conference showed there is a big shortfall in unskilled labour and there are also gaps in other areas.

Ms Jones: We are filling low skilled jobs with highly skilled workers

Q665 Mr D Jones: There seems to be a large number of workers from outside the EU for example Russia and Ukraine. How do they get work permits?

Ms Jones: I have not explored this, some may not have.

Ms Hale: I could not really say, the people we see are mainly from the EU and are on a six month working permit.

Q666 Mr D Jones: Did they come through agencies?

Ms Jones: Not the Russians.

Q667 Mr D Jones: In Llandudno hotel workers are from Russia and Ukraine which is not in the EU.

Ms Jones: They could be on visas.

Ms Hale: No, in Llandudno they are mostly EU.

Q668 Mr M Jones: You refer to the "perception of local people that their jobs are being undermined by agency workers"; is there a sense of friction between the two groups?

Ms Hale: In some areas I think you get mixed reports and there is a lot of anecdotal evidence. People who live close to Polish people say they are nice people, those who do not know them feel intimidated.

Ms Jones: Stewards also feel this way, until you meet people, go on a course with them, it is difficult for people to integrate.

Ms Hale: These workers work such long shifts that they are moved from their work place to their house by their employers. They do not mix as much and join in with the community as much as they would if they came over independently.

Ms Jones: They work long hours and do not meet people.

Q669 Mr M Jones: The perception is they do not stay and they go back to Poland at the end of their time working here.

Ms Jones: It is mixed, some would like to stay and bring over their families and integrate in to school and learn Welsh and English. The young Polish workers return and go back to university and some into parliament.

Q670 Mr M Jones: I have heard that 10,000 are living in Wrexham. Would that be right?

Ms Hale: Yes there are very high numbers. There are low employment rates and lots of people living in Wrexham. Wrexham County Borough Council is proactive in making links relating to community cohesion within the surrounding areas.

Q671 Chairman: Do you have a sense of where exactly they are?

Ms Jones: Caia Park, Telford and Shrewsbury.

Q672 Mark Williams: Does the TGWU have links with, for example, Polish unions, through which information can be passed onto people thinking of coming to Wales to work?

Ms Jones: I cannot speak for the whole union but as far as I know we do not need to tell people what their rights are as workers before they come here. We need to be telling them that agents take money off them for accommodation and fuel, about £50 per week, but they want to send money home, they need to be told the streets are not paved with gold.

Q673 Mark Williams: In Ceredigion it is the same for agricultural workers.

Ms Hale: Even in these cases some people believe they can save enough for their retirement.

Q674 Mark Williams: You note in your written paper that agencies are flouting the Gangmasters Licensing Authority by working in partnership with European agencies which are not regulated from with the UK. How do employment agencies in Wales work with other such agencies abroad, and what is the relationship between them?

Ms Jones: The police are taking on Polish speakers. The workers are asked to sign contracts which are in English. The impression they are given is that there is going to be a great job arranged but they do not speak English. They have been told they will be self-employed. In reality they come here having signed a contract in English that they do not understand, then the worker arrives in England and no one turns up at the appointed place to meet them, then another gang, or the same one, but under a different name turns up, and takes them on. They are actually the same people. They say we will find you a job, so already they are put in a position of fear.

Q675 Mark Williams: What is the age profile?

Ms Jones: They are very young or pushing retirement. They get bundled off and left sitting on coaches at the side of a motorway for up to 24 hours.

Ms Hale: At this stage passports are taken away from migrant workers when they get here.

Ms Jones: They have no passport, nowhere to live, and they do not know where they are, which is not a good start.

Q676 Mark Williams: Your paper describes "deductions from wages for accommodation and travel" made by employers. You also refer to the high fees charged by some agencies. Typically what level of pay do migrant labourers receive, and what fees do agencies charge?

Ms Jones: Accommodation is about £50 per week, £20-£30 probably to travel to work in an unlicensed car with no MOT, sometimes additional fees of about £40 for special cleaning of the accommodation. The agency charges additional fees of about £40 a week for special cleaning of accommodation and other charges the agency sees fit.

Ms Hale: It is very common for them to be in debt when they arrive.

Q677 Mark Williams: According to your figures of the workers who come to the UK, how many stay, and on what basis do they make that decision?

Ms Jones: Most tend to stick it out, they hope to pay the agency off, and there are some good employers who take people on reasonable terms. They tend to be the ones who are most established and stay, some are living in South Wales. One worker brought a case against an agency which paid him his wages in an envelope although the figure on the payslip was different and he never received the right amount of money. The worker had a witness who watched him open the envelope. He successfully brought a case against the agency, and is now working as a fitness instructor in a gym in South Wales.

Q678 Mr D Jones: You say that the Workers Registration Scheme has been abused by some agencies. In what way?

Ms Jones: Some agencies abuse it, by telling workers that they need a worker's registration fee at a cost of £120-£150 when the cost is actually £70. Agencies take the passport from the workers saying they are applying for residency, which they cannot apply for as they have not been here for 12 months, the worker then receives a rejection slip from the Home Office. The workers believe they have been refused for registration, they cannot claim for benefits and housing, there is a lot of confusion.

Q679 Mr D Jones: These practices are clearly illegal.

Ms Jones: Absolutely.

Q680 Mr D Jones: What are the authorities doing about it?

Ms Jones: I thought you would tell me. The workers are not experienced, they are afraid to do anything in case it jeopardises them working in other EU countries.

Ms Hale: It appears to be intimidation.

Ms Jones: It is quite a tangle.

Q681 Mr D Jones: It is a type of organised criminal activity which the authorities are doing little to stop.

Ms Hale: There must have been a lot of complaints. Agencies change their names and office addresses to at least eight or nine different names.

Ms Jones: Yes, but they are one and the same company.

Q682 Mr D Jones: But extortion is obviously a police matter. Have there been any police prosecutions?

Ms Hale: The police have been advised. However a lot of people are frightened of the police, they do not think they are someone to whom they can go. People are afraid to bring this forward and afraid to put names on paper when it comes to prosecution.

Ms Jones: There is also a language barrier.

Q683 Mr D Jones: So where are you getting the information you are getting now?

Ms Hale: In a lot of areas police are getting the information. Police in Flint are involved with Wrexham in community cohesion issues.

Q684 Mr D Jones: Are they prosecuted?

Ms Hale: People are too afraid to give statements.

Q685 Mr D Jones: This is clearly more or less mafia activity, is it not? The TUC Wales's programme Access Across Wales is intended to spread good practice by strengthening links between various centres working with migrant labour. Can you describe for the Committee which organisations are involved, what sort of projects have been initiated, and what examples of good practice you have identified?

Ms Hale: Access Across Wales established a lot of good practice. We established that North Wales has growing numbers of migrant workers and that there are patterns happening across Britain. There have been tutor and learning champions to promote learning and awareness with regards to living in Britain and Wales, so it is not just about language, it is also about citizenship. The TUC Wales are working with Bangor, Flintshire, Llanelli, Wrexham and now Merthyr Tydfil.

Q686 Mr D Jones: What organisations were involved in this?

Ms Hale: In Llanelli a credit union has been set up by a Polish woman where advice can be obtained for people who get into debt.

Ms Jones: The credit union provides bonds for people, for example, agency housing, they also help to rent private accommodation.

Ms Hale: The North Wales Race Equality Network (NWREN) have been good and VALREQ (Valley Race Equality) who are set up on a slightly different basis. Funding has been difficult to get. It is important people adapt to local areas, you can get a lot of things done and adapt to particular circumstances. Everybody is saying it is better to link up with other local initiatives.

Q687 Mr D Jones: Is there a problem with access to financial services? In London mainstream banks are targeting immigrants. Is that happening in Wales or are they excluded from financial services? What initiatives are there happening in Wrexham?

Ms Jones: Nothing is happening yet, they are very much excluded, if they go into a bank here, no one speaks Polish.

Q688 Mr D Jones: It is a question of the language and not prejudices?

Ms Jones: No, they are very much excluded, no one speaks Polish.

Q689 .Mr D Jones: The Access Across Wales project is halfway through its planned two-year programme. What longer-term projects would you like to see follow on?

Ms Jones: We are developing that as we go through this project.

Ms Hale: It is also essential to link up to other organisations and we work with Wrexham County Borough Council, police, CAB. So, really it is important people are talking to all the other agencies and linking up. We will be putting in new initiatives when it comes to an end.

Ms Jones: It is crucial that we need to do something for all agency workers, this is not just about migrant workers.

Q690 Mr M Jones: Are employers seeking to recruit migrant labour from countries outside the EU, for example by attending recruitment fairs?

Ms Hale: There are recruitment fairs in Europe of food manufacturers. We know of one particular food processing factory who fill their gaps of six months.

Q691 Mr M Jones: Are they workers from Ukraine, Russia or China?

Ms Hale: Not China. People from the Ukraine are employed, and the Filipinos are employed on factory shop floors.

Q692 Mr M Jones: How do union learning representatives work with migrant workers? Does the union have a role in ensuring that, for example, health and safety information is available in the workplace in other languages?

Ms Hale: We are trying to get migrant workers on union representatives' courses. Migrants cannot get time off work to attend these courses, it would be useful if they attended. There are no migrant shop stewards.

Q693 Mr M Jones: Do unions have a role in making sure health and safety is observed?

Ms Hale: They need to be able to read the signs. These people are not literate in English. We are setting up learning centres across Wales as an initiative. There are employers who really take that on board. They tend to be the kind of employer that has a big interface with the public. Agencies speak to the employers regarding health and safety, some have lower standards of equipment, people are only there for a week or two but all workers should get some health and safety.

Q694 Chairman: But within the set of responsibilities, where do you reckon the trade unions have a role?

Ms Jones: They need to help ensure everyone can read the signs properly and that it is quite clear to all workers.

Q695 Chairman: With regards to the Welsh Language Forum only the T&G have taken interest in this, this is about membership issues and the T&G are at the sharp end.

Ms Jones: It comes more readily to the T&G.

Q696 Chairman: Can I move on and ask you about the recommendations that you make at the end of your memo in support of the migrant community and the local workforce. Would you like to describe these in more detail?

Ms Hale: There have been some joint educational events on the Welsh culture and language with celebrations and trips on the cultural aspects of having a mixed community, which lead to greater community cohesion.

Ms Jones: Part of the problem is a lot of agency workers are not union members so they are not coming to our attention. More migrants are needed to take up membership, we are not capturing as many as we should. We have no ESOL (English Speaker of Other Languages) link up with educational establishments with initiatives.

Q697 Chairman: Can I ask about the Social Institution and ask if there are any working relationships with the Catholic Church here?

Ms Jones: There was in Anglesey in 2005. Holyhead Catholic Church held ESOL classes in Anglesey Gwynedd.

Ms Hale: The church in Flint, which is not Catholic runs a practical ESOL.

Q698 Chairman: And I am sure NEWI does some excellent work here.

Ms Hale: Yes.

Q699 Chairman: We will be taking evidence from the Commissioner of Racial Equality Wales, Reverend Aled Edwards.

Ms Hale: I have worked with Chris Byant and Steve Bennett.

Q700 Chairman: It occurs to me in listening to this evidence and what we have learnt in Poland that there are some lessons to be drawn out in comparison with Solidanorch.

Ms Jones: I think I will have to speak to my regional secretary to answer that one.

Q701 Chairman: It would be very helpful if you could provide a list of the conferences you have attended.

Ms Hale: Yes.

Ms Jones: Yes. The migrant workers support union comes to Wrexham on 15 May.

Chairman: Thank you both very much for your evidence today and your memorandum that you submitted. If you feel that you have something else that you would like to add then we would be pleased to receive it.

Witnesses: Councillor Aled Roberts, Leader, Wrexham County Borough Council, Ms Gillian Grainger, Community Cohesion Co-ordinator, Wrexham County Borough Council, gave evidence.

Q702 Chairman: Welcome to the meeting and thank you for your memorandum, which was most helpful. The report you have submitted to the Committee notes that "it is difficult to be precise about the numbers of economic migrants in Wrexham". What is your best estimate, and what methods do you use to arrive at that figure?

Ms Grainger: We struggled to put a figure on it due to recording national insurance numbers but it is between 4,000 and 8,000. Research by the Welsh Assembly Government on the figures is ongoing.

Councillor Roberts: One of the major problems we have is questioning the fluidity of any of the figures. The local press recorded community cohesion costing £15,000 which was then reported as an 'explosion'. The figures we have are the best guestimates.

Q703 Chairman: I suppose one accurate measure is the number of school children. The Council offers English as an additional language as a service for the children of migrant workers. Have there been any recent changes to the level of demand? Are you being provided with any additional funding by either the Welsh Assembly Government, or the UK Government?

Councillor Roberts: We have been. Up to 2004 when growth in numbers started, there were 199 school children. In March 2007 there were 456 with around 85-90 of those registered in September. But the number is not dying away. It is on-going at that rate.

Q704 Chairman: Are you being EMAG (Ethnic Minority Achievement Grant) funded?

Councillor Roberts: There are no issues, it is paid in arrears over a 6 month period. EAL funding and WAG resources are not keeping pace with the growth. Spending for people was £1,200 in 2004 reducing to £879 now. The other difficulty we have as an authority is that there appears to be a trend. During the last 9-12 months it appears that the number of children who have come from Poland and Portugal with special needs or no real educational history is growing. Following a meeting last week we know that an increasing number of children who have come from Poland and Portugal are from institutional care. Poland and Portugal are our two largest communities. We have heard evidence that there are a number of children from very rural areas that have about 5-10 hours provision per week.

Q705 Mark Williams: I was just going to say it must be quite a challenge as an authority to find enough adults to support.

Councillor Roberts: Yes it is.

Q706 Mark Williams: So practically speaking how big a difficulty has that been?

Councillor Roberts: It is big. We have to make different allowances for special needs children especially from Portugal where they would be institutionalised.

Q707 Mark Williams: You note that "Wrexham experiences significant changes in its demographic composition as a result of economic migration". Can you describe these changes for the Committee? What has been the impact on Council services?

Councillor Roberts: I suppose the greatest impact at the moment is in education but also in housing. We have seen a huge growth in HMOs (houses of multiple occupation). The migrant workers' population takes up a lot of slack in the migrant working sector. The reality is we are only scraping the surface

Q708 Mark Williams: On the HMOs what figure are you talking about? How big an explosion has that been?

Councillor Roberts: There has been an increase with the number of houses with multiple occupancy, from 620 to 970 now. Over the last 18 month period this has impacted on every day issues, for example kerbside recycling and complaints have been received from the local level.

Q709 Mark Williams: How has the council responded to these changes and adapted its services to meet the challenge? Have services provided by the council for other vulnerable groups been affected as a result?

Ms Grainger: We are very mindful of this. We have targeted migrants, we have some practical things in education, we have revised the process. A child gets additional support and relevant language skills. We are trying to develop our cohesion agenda and trying to provide how things work across the borough.

Q710 Mark Williams: As an education authority and personal experience as a teacher, it is an enriching experience when children arrive from a different background and with a different mother tongue.

Ms Grainger: We have recognised this within our schools as part of our curriculum.

Q711 Chairman: I have got a question about the issue of language. There are three types of schools, church, including Catholic, Welsh medium and others. Is there a different approach to each of these categories?

Ms Grainger: I am not aware of any different approach.

Councillor Roberts: We have a standardised approach. The majority of migrant children are in primary school, the capacity within that sector has been reached. All the provision is within the mainstream schools. We took a policy decision not to set up specialised units. The number of migrant workers in villages in Wrexham is increasing.

Q712 Chairman: Can you be more explicit here?

Councillor Roberts: I have seen correspondence from Assembly Members. Assembly Members understand the council has been providing accommodation. If that is the level of knowledge in the Assembly then as a council we need to be more proactive in explaining that.

Q713 Mr M Jones: What specific projects has the council undertaken to raise public awareness of the issue and to foster social cohesion - for example, your public information programme, the "myth-buster" leaflets and the "One Wrexham" initiative? Have any employment agencies subscribed to the "One Wrexham" initiative so far?

Councillor Roberts: We have developed one Wrexham Charter rolling out to all our schools but there is a danger we sign documents and take it no further. Gillian met the primary heads and I am meeting them next week to discuss the PCE curriculum within our schools. We need to have a blunt and robust dialogue of the issues. We kid ourselves we play happy families. Within the Wrexham Charter it states people should expect some standard of services and benefits.

Ms Grainger: Another piece of work we have taken forward is an information booklet for migrant workers in four languages and English and Welsh which gives information on how to access police support, refuse collection, health, unemployment issues, higher education and where to go for advice.

Q714 Mr M Jones: How do you get that information out to the community?

Ms Grainger: Through the existing structure, police, Polish shops, Catholic churches, we use what is available.

Councillor Roberts: We had a community cohesion event last week which I think was quite a reality check really. Another one is planned in 2-3 months time and interested parties are involved. One of the elements being developed within our ID was community cohesion.

Q715 Chairman: Which are the four languages?

Ms Grainger: Polish, Portuguese, Czech, Slovak.

Q716 Mr D Jones: What more can you tell the Committee about the council's community cohesion strategy, and the various groups it involves?

Ms Grainger: The group is still in the early stages and those involved are the police, fire service and health trusts. We are trying to develop a strategy at strategic level, and to pull together and identify gaps and mainstream activities and take forward community cohesion.

Q717 Mr D Jones: This activity obviously does not come free of charge but ultimately falls to the council taxpayer. Have you costed this?

Councillor Roberts: Currently we have a very robust strategy but we need to develop the dialogue.

Q718 Mr D Jones: Which clearly would come at a cost.

Councillor Roberts: Not necessarily. The intention is to utilise the links we already have. The issue as far as Wrexham is concerned is 4/8/15 thousand. This figure represents 2-10% of the Wrexham population. They should be entitled to the same services. £14,496 additional lost is spent on translation services.

Q719 Mr D Jones: You are effectively telling the Committee that the only additional cost to the taxpayer is around £15,000?

Councillor Roberts: That is the cost. The community cohesion section was Gill, who was appointed for two years. The post was already in existence but Gill's role has been extended quite rapidly.

Q720 Mr D Jones: Are you talking about Caia Park?

Councillor Roberts: Yes.

Q721 Mr D Jones: Well turning to Caia Park, both Wrexham Citizens Advice Bureau and the Caia Park Partnership have secured 3-year funding from the National Lottery further to develop the support services they offer to economic migrants in the area. Can you give the Committee some further details of the community-based support services offered by the CAB and the Caia Park Partnership?

Ms Grainger: The CAB provided some case work for the interpreter from Wrexham and Caia park.

Q722 Mr D Jones: I seem to recall that Caia Park had a large Kurdish population. Is that the case?

Councillor Roberts: The problems in Caia Park happened at the first phase of migrant workers and a relative number of tenancies were given to Kurds. I was the mayor and a solicitor at the time.

Q723 Mr D Jones: Is there still a Kurdish population there?

Councillor Roberts: At the time of the first phase of migrant workers we had a number in Wrexham. From discussions last week with the Welsh Refugee Council there are certainly a number of Kurds living in the Wrexham area.

Q724 Mark Williams: I was interested in your work with two groups; the National Assembly's Wales Refugee Policy Forum and the North Wales Police.

Councillor Roberts: We have a regular dialogue with the Forum.

Q725 Mark Williams: And the North Wales Police?

Ms Grainger: I am a member of the consortium and work at all levels and attend a wide range of meetings supporting the consultation on that policy on regular and written dialogue. North Wales Police have a diversity officer and offer fulltime support to migrants, and this is a useful conduit. There is ongoing work with the Caia Park Partnership.

Councillor Roberts: On operational Wales, the relationship is very healthy and the migrant worker influx started. There were some very sharp practices from the agencies. I am not sure the Assembly is real to this issue. The sub-group has only met on two occasions. It is not just Wrexham, there is Dee-Side and Llanelli. The Home Office has suggested a consortium takes over strategic police policy for Wales. There is an enabling grant and the actual additional expenditure is £5,000 per annum. The local authority representatives, on the consortium, will be telling the Home Office that they are not willing to accept responsibility.

Q726 Chairman: The migrant workers' action plan update you have provided notes that "a recent survey in the county borough suggests that there are in the region of 1,000 houses in multiple occupation and anecdotally it is believed that the majority are occupied by economic migrants sometimes to the point of overcrowding". What inspection and monitoring of houses in multiple occupation does the council undertake? Have any prosecutions been brought regarding overcrowding or fire protection issues?

Councillor Roberts: The new legislation introduced in 2006 complies to properties where there are more than three storeys, 5 occupants, and we have an obligation for statutory licensing. The problem is the actual scale of the task. A local housing strategy has been undertaken and confirms 900 properties in Wrexham, and at the time this report was presented to the Committee only 32 out of the 900 have gone through a full licensing process. 24 are in process at the moment. Since 1 April 2006 the Council have received 11 complaints of over crowding from 900 properties. We have been ensuring legislation is being adhered to. There are other issues with regards to infestations in other tenanted properties probably due to the circumstances people are living in.

Q727 Chairman: Could I end by asking a couple more general questions. Do you share experiences and good practices with other local authorities?

Councillor Roberts: The Local Government Improvement Agency identified best practice in Boston, Lincolnshire, Slough and Southampton. Politically there is scope for sharing best practice within Wales. In reality there are only four authorities and they are dispersed. Discussions have been held with Carmarthenshire on an informal level.

Ms Grainger: At officer level discussions are more informal. Discussions are held within England, this is best practice, however Wales does have its own issues.

Q728 Chairman: Are you aware of any attempt to celebrate cultural relations between Wales and Poland through for example the British Council?

Councillor Roberts: We had the first twinning at primary level with Silesia four years ago. A church from Marchweil went to Poland during Christmas time. Wrexham library have held an exhibition by a Polish artist. Six teachers from Wrexham have visited Silesia and Silesia visited Wrexham two years ago.

Q729 Chairman: Is that unique or do you know of others in the UK?

Councillor Roberts: Denbighshire has a twinning arrangement with the Silesia Assembly but it is very much on an ad hoc basis. So far it has been on a cultural and sporting level. We need to do more.

Chairman: Thank you both very much for your evidence and memorandum. If you feel that there is anything that you would like to add then we would be very pleased to receive it.

Witnesses: John Gallanders, Chief Officer, Association of Voluntary Organisations in Wrexham (AVOW), Alison Hill, Chief Officer, Caia Park Partnership, Janet Williams, AVOW Health and Social Care Facilitator, AVOW, gave evidence.

Q730 Chairman: Good afternoon and welcome to this hearing of the Committee. For the record would you like to introduce yourselves.

Mr Gallanders: My name is John Gallanders and I am representing one of nineteen voluntary organisations in Wrexham.

Ms Hill: I am Alison Hill, Chief Office of Caia Park Partnership.

Ms Williams: I am Janet Williams, Health and Social Care Facilitator.

Q731 Chairman: In concluding your memorandum you write that "The third sector has much to give in terms of making globalisation a positive rather than a negative experience for Wales". What more can you tell the Committee about the positive contribution to be made by the third sector?

Mr Gallanders: The starting point really is that the third sector can react much quicker than statutory agencies. Migrant and asylum people arrived in Wrexham five years ago and the Wrexham asylum seeker and support group made up of representatives of a wide range of community and voluntary organisations who had actually had a feel for what was happening was the first to be set up. We have had a very close involvement with people on the ground. People were arriving in the area with no real idea of any of the statutory agencies. We represent a wide range of individuals including religious organisations, the Salvation Army and local Methodist churches. They are very quickly able to muster up a significant number of volunteers and operate a drop-in facility. One of the key things is to involve local people in the community. Help and information is given for housing, council or private sector.

Q732 Chairman: If you would just pause at that point you mention in your paper to the committee that the third sector organisations you consulted identified the lack of hard data about the number of migrant workers as a major concern. In your view, who should be responsible for collecting such data and, given the nature of labour migration, how accurate can it be? Which organisation is better suited to help?

Mr Gallanders: It is very difficult to identify any one sector. 30% of workers go through the Job Centre, and the remaining 70% go through agencies so actual figures are not known.

Q733 Chairman: Are other family members coming in?

Mr Gallanders: Some migrants bring family members with them. The figure could be indicated through the number of children accessing schools.

Q734 Chairman: Could I ask a question that occurred to me when you were speaking then? Who would you include within the voluntary sector? Would you include the church and trade unions?

Mr Gallanders: We have extremely close links to faith groups in Wrexham, a number from the local Catholic church.

Q735 Chairman: Are they actual partners?

Mr Gallanders: Very much so. There are various information groups within the voluntary sector that form the backbone in voluntary management committee, in particular areas of cohesion. The Catholic Church holds a service.

Q736 Chairman: Could you describe to us the faith groups in Caia Park?

Ms Hill: The reverend of the local church is very supportive of work with migrant workers.

Q737 Chairman: What about the trade unions?

Mr Gallanders: We have not got a great deal of involvement with the trade union directly. However, there are partners around the table.

Q738 Chairman: Do you not think that is something of a gap?

Mr Gallanders: Voluntary organisations are currently working with faith groups at NEWI where Muslims have a meeting place. They wish to build a mosque within Wrexham. The voluntary organisations are working with them to raise funding to build a mosque.

Q739 Mr M Jones: Your memorandum states that estimates of the number of migrants living in the County Borough of Wrexham vary from between 8,000 and 15,000 - a wide range. In your estimation, which end of the scale is more accurate?

Ms Hill: The figure is moving on an upwards trend, and new families come in on a regular basis. Plus the figure rises on seasonal work, as in June in Poland schools end. I would not like to pick a figure between 8,000 - 15,000, the figure is rising.

Mr Gallanders: Could I just mention, and it seems a very strange analogy in a sense, but if you look around the area you can see growth by looking at areas with Polska net and satellite dishes. You can physically see in the streets 8,9,10,15 Polska dishes. So, you can relate that to the fact that there has been a change in the community.

Q740 Chairman: Can you describe for the Committee the additional challenges for the third sector which migrant labour brings? What welfare and information needs do migrant workers have, and how does the third sector a) establish what these are, and b) seek to meet them?

Ms Williams: The third sector existed to fit gaps. We have to be flexible, and there are language barriers. The language line is actually quite expensive. There is an increase in trauma counselling and mental health issues. We have to promote our services via word of mouth. It is difficult to promote your services given the language barrier. It is impossible to use traditional routes.

Ms Hill: We have to train up resources to meet the challenges. There has been an ongoing battle and that is not being dramatic. It is quite resource intensive, simply because of the language issue. We provide a drop-in service three days a week to provide support for migrant workers. ESOL classes are available. We could fill 18 classes a week but funding has cut to four per week. The Welsh Assembly Government cut the resources.

Q741 Mr D Jones: How flexible and responsive is the third sector in being able to adapt to demographic changes?

Mr Gallanders: Historically Wrexham has had a large number of overseas students including a large number of doctors and nurses. Wrexham Maelor hospital had a large recruitment and brought in 40-plus Filipinos. They advised them of housing, accommodation, educational and language support. Support is given to parents arriving with children, placing them in play groups. This was a planned approach; other migrant workers have been unplanned. The strategic agencies are having to look downward from the top and cannot move so quickly

Q742 Mr D Jones: So the answer is pretty responsive or pretty flexible. As a matter of interest have you ever discovered why so many Poles want to come and settle in Wrexham?

Ms Hill: There is the historic Penley site where Polish people are located, and an economic development programme promoting Wrexham was held, which gave a big push.

Q743 Mr D Jones: You note that the lack of data makes planning statutory sector services difficult, leading to gaps in provision which voluntary organisations then seek to fill. The result is that third sector resources are diverted towards "emergency, short term solutions rather than a longer term strategic approach".⁵ Which longer term projects and programmes are being sacrificed, and what are the immediate problems which the third sector is having to meet?

Mr Gallanders: If you look at things like finance for migrants and the work of the CAB, compared to the local authority and welfare rights services, clearly there is a significant gap of our works directly through the fair share, through lottery funding, but this is only short term. Short term lottery funding is available for Caia Park and Welsh refugee groups on a three yearly basis. There is no mainstream or statutory funding. Certainly the Polish migrants would prefer to have access to the ESOL courses. Caia Park have to keep putting funding bids in, and this is an essential part of living in the area. Polish migrants are seeking to work and are not wanting everything to be translated, this is a myth.

Q744 Mark Williams: What additional support needs does migrant labour place on the school system? In what way is this "not only language but also cultural awareness"?

Mr Gallanders: There are cultural differences, the relationships within a family setting can be quite different. There was an incident about 12-18 months ago of a Portuguese family in which a Portuguese lady was actually looking after eight children in the house. Social services were informed and the house was raided, and they took the children away, but it was culturally acceptable amongst the Portuguese community for one lady to act as a childminder. What is acceptable in one country is not in the UK. The role of the male within households is significantly different. Professionals need to be aware of cultural differences.

Ms Williams: There is concern with the Black Association of Women who are travelling on their husbands' visas, and who are often culturally dominated and physically abused, they have no rights as individuals. There are a number of case studies. Children are also vulnerable. They are afraid of going to the police, in case they are sent back. For example, the North Wales BALSO, which is a funded resource, had 25 cases and now 64 across the area. The UK Government needs to look at visa and migration issues.

Q745 Mr M Jones: And the school system?

Mr Gallanders: There are issues particularly around faith; how does the school engage with the Muslim community on practical issues.

Q746 Mark Williams: Thank you. The final paragraph of your memorandum says that "differences in policy and legislation across the border can throw up issues which Wrexham as a border town can find it difficult to deal with". Which particular issues are you referring to, and is there currently a problem?

Mr Gallanders: I think there are two or three areas where this is relevant. Legislation changes maybe UK-wide, just England or devolved to Wales, like health and education and how long it takes to filter through Wales, like the Welsh Baccalaureat and its effect. There is currently a lot of employment legislation from the DTI which covers both England and Wales at the same time. If powers are devolved from Wales there is a time delay and as a consequence people maybe receiving misinformation. Because migrant workers live and work in different areas and on the border there can be confusion from TV because they maybe watch the BBC or BBC Wales. It seems minor but there is confusion over the smoking ban, but this is significant.

Q747 Mr D Jones: Presumably a number of migrants, although they might live in Wrexham, might work across the border in England?

Mr Gallanders: Some migrants live in Stoke and work on the Wrexham Industrial Estate.

Ms Hill: I am concerned about the obsession of the numbers of migrant workers, and the issues of assistance to migrant workers, needing to be dealt with and the number of them should not be an issue. The term migrant labour gives the impression they are coming and going but they are here, staying and bringing their families. Most migrant workers are doing jobs which their skills are too high for. Their qualifications in this country account for nothing, they bring services in and positive things to the community. We should look at ways of harnessing their skills.

Q748 Mr D Jones: Could you expand on your first point?

Ms Hill: Sometimes in social cohesion, questions start with "how many are there". It should be how do we deal with migrants coming in, the numbers should be second. We are so hung up about the numbers, should we not be providing opportunities and numbers.

Q749 Mr D Jones: You are saying that the discussion about the numbers has been an excuse for not doing anything?

Ms Hill: We are in partnership discussions. I cannot give you particular names, we do not know what we are dealing with but it involves the statutory agencies, health authority and local authority.

Mr Gallanders: We are in the third year cycle. In the first year there was an assumption that it was a transient group of people. We have moved on in Wrexham. There is a more stable group of workers settling and bringing over their relations. In a few years' time the parents of the migrant workers will impact on health and social care services and as the children grow up they will be seeking employment.

Q750 Mr D Jones: Are you saying there is resistance on addressing issues regarding the migrant population?

Ms Hill: I am not implying criticism or resistance, it is a new area and in order to respond to it there has to be discussions. What often happens is we start thinking about the numbers first and we need to break through from this.

Mark Williams: In my area most migration is into Ceredigion and it is young individual people mainly in farms and hotel work. In Poland the perception is it is a temporary phenomenon but here it is a permanent phenomenon.

Q751 Mr M Jones: I was just going to raise the same point that Mr Williams has just raised, the perception in Poland is that most immigrants are young and fit people and that they are going to return. In Caia Park the perception is of people settling. We all know it is impossible to find out the figures.

Ms Hill: Those who have gained qualifications in Poland can use them for two years and then they have to return to re-new them, so they stay otherwise they have to start and re-train at their own cost.

Chairman: We have learnt a lot, and hope you have too, from your earlier evidence. Thank you for your evidence and memorandum. If you have something to add, we would be very pleased to receive it.