LORD JONES OF BIRMINGHAM AND MR ANDREW CAHN

16 JULY 2007

  Q100  Mr Weir: No, you are a joint minister with FCO.

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: And DBERR, yes.

  Q101  Mr Weir: And another one is a joint minister with DBERR and DFID and I think another one DBERR and the MoD. There are three departments.

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: We have got Lord Drayson who we share with at the Ministry of Defence; we have Gareth who we share with at DFID and there is me who is shared with the Foreign Office. I actually think that is incredibly healthy, I really do, because, just as I told you earlier on, I am thrilled to bits that business has at last got its name into the title of a department and it happens to be me but I sincerely hope after me this will go on forever. It has someone whose focus is only this for the first time, both of which must be fabulous for wealth creation in this country, that pays tax and builds schools and hospitals. The other thing about business is that it moves across every sphere of the political domain and every sphere of society. Making sure that business every day tries to get its act more clean, more green, more socially responsible; making sure that we are an agent for the improvement of the poor countries of the world; making sure that we help in the sensitive areas, Defence is an excellent example of that, where you always had the problem of doing jobs and are we doing the right thing and where are we doing it; Treasury, for all the obvious reasons we know, and at the same time with the Department of Work and Pensions for the pension reasons we discussed earlier. I believe if we can pull this off, and it is down to John Hutton who I fully support in this, if he can run a team of ministers who can really get their feelers into all different parts of government, he will have pulled something off which has never happened in this country before. That is part of what the Prime Minister is saying, "Let us govern the country a little bit differently", and on the delivery mechanisms, notice these people are not in the Cabinet, nor should they be, it is about democratic election there, but if you come down to the delivery mechanisms let us have some different strands going off to govern Britain a bit differently than in the past. I applaud the Prime Minister for that. I know I would, would I not, but I do.

  Q102  Mr Weir: Do you not fear there is perhaps a loss of business focus, specifically on trade policy, and some concerns have been raised about competition policy and influence within the EU and the United States by the fact it has spread through so many departments? Do you feel there is a danger?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: I think that is for the Secretary of State to talk about, not me, only for one reason, which is that he is the boss of it so he has the job to make that work, not me. I do not think I would be doing him a service if I got involved in that. What I would say, so you understand, is that when it comes to trade negotiations, which is not my bag, I am not doing that side of it, I am staying focused on trade overseas in every respect, but trade policy and negotiations is down to Douglas Alexander and input from DBERR, the mix between using business as an agent for social inclusion and enhancement in poor nations, you cannot pull that off without business. Those two have got to work hand in glove, got to, otherwise it will not work. I am sure it will, but it is down to John Hutton to make that work with DFID.

  Q103  Mr Weir: If I understand you correctly then Douglas Alexander is the lead in negotiating trade policy in the international arena. Does that not conflict with your work in promoting international trade?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: No, no, no. In fact, I hope that Douglas will come with me on one or two visits, or I suppose I should say I will go with him. I would really hope we can pull something off together. What we have got to get is the NGOs, who have an inordinate influence on the developing countries, especially the poorer developing countries rather than the top end, to understand that business is the only way they will achieve sustainable economic development in these countries. The way to do that is I will go and carry Douglas's bags once or twice around the world, that is how to pull this off. It is a long haul, I am not saying we will succeed but we will give it a damn good try.

  Q104  Chairman: Would that be the politically motivated, opaquely funded NGOs you referred to in that speech then which is not now?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: You might say that I could not possibly comment.

  Q105  Chairman: You have rather covered the question that Mr Hoyle was going to ask you next but can I ask you, the mechanism you have been describing to Mr Weir as novel, innovative, fresh, is that not just a Cabinet committee made a little bit more public?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: Certainly not. Definitely not. Chairman, do I look like somebody who would spend my life in a Cabinet committee in London?

  Q106  Chairman: There is going to be some kind of trade committee, is there not, chaired by the DFID secretary?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: Yes, but that is (a) the Secretary of State, not me, and (b) that is on the trade policy side, not on what I am doing.

  Q107  Chairman: You were talking about "innovative" and I do not see it as particularly innovative. I welcome the explicit recognition of DFID's role in trade policy, I think it is absolutely right. The Doha Round, development led, that is absolutely right, I have no problem with it but it just seems to me it is just a rebadging of an old process really, is it not?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: That is not for me.

  Chairman: Okay.

  Q108  Mr Weir: One of the key conclusions of the Committee's recent report on UKTI was that the Government had meddled too often with its strategy and structure, and that it should now be allowed to get on with its job. That was something we got time and time again.

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: You just had your wish. That is what I am doing. That is precisely what I am doing, getting on with the job. That is the job.

  Mr Weir: You can give us an assurance there will be no further change in UKTI in the foreseeable future?

  Q109  Chairman: No further significant changes?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: Change as in?

  Q110  Mr Weir: Reorganisation?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: I will give you the assurance while I am the Chairman of it, the only focus is going to be on what we have talked about all afternoon. I do not want to do anything else. I am not here to go off and do anything else or be waylaid on anything else, that is my job, this is my chief executive and my people are going to follow us.

  Q111  Chairman: We see very good people working for UKTI at grass roots level in country after country after country but they do feel a bit punch drunk with the changes of strategy, the changes of message, the changes of priorities, the new language.

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: Do you mean are we going to be initiative lite?

  Q112  Chairman: I would like you to be initiative lite, yes.

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: I am a great believer in setting a target, go for it, get it, put the ball in the net, move on.

  Chairman: I think that is a yes, we will see your response to our report as well and be sure it is a yes.

  Q113  Mr Binley: Two questions. The first is very simple: are there any plans to cut funding to UKTI?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: I sincerely hope not.

  Q114  Mr Binley: No, that was not the answer I was looking for. I want a yes or no.

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: I will tell you I do not know.

  Q115  Mr Binley: That is a truthful answer.

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: That is a truthful answer, I do not know.

  Q116  Mr Binley: Less of a politician's, if I may say so.

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: Thank you. The conclusion is I sincerely hope not.

  Q117  Mr Binley: We need to know. Secondly, the Chairman talked about changes of strategy, direction from the top, people not knowing where they are, where they are going, where they are coming from and, indeed, we found that out in the field, quite frankly. There are some excellent people out in the field but very often the target setting misses the point when it filters down, as it often does, that is the trickle down thing that really does not work in management, you know that and I know that. Will you shove power down the line? Will you do away with all this strategy-making at top level and allow people in the field to decide --- I see your civil servant is already advising you so you must have thought about it. Will you ensure that people in the field have real input into what we are doing in a given market in a given sector?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: There are two answers to you. The first is I did not hear what he said.

  Q118  Chairman: He can say it for himself. It is a shame to have Mr Cahn sitting here all this time and not allowed to speak. Let us give him a chance to say something.

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: It will be a good moment for him to speak, if I can just say one thing about it. I really do believe you get a better result, as long as they are competent and they know what they are doing, if you devolve as much as you can to as near to the coalface as possible. I have always believed that. Contrary to what Mr Woodley said in the newspaper, I have run many businesses. He wrote in a newspaper I have never run a business, which is untrue. Nevertheless, I have always done it by getting your decision down the line so I can tell you now that is what we will be doing. You need competent people to do it.

  Q119  Mr Binley: This is not "that was then, this is now" then? You are going to do exactly what you believe with this organisation and drive decision making and power down the line?

  Lord Jones of Birmingham: Yes. In the context of the strategy document that was a year ago, "that is what you buy into five years, now go and deliver it". Are there going to be changes of strategy every five minutes, no certainly not. "That is your document, now go and do it." Well, they have had a year at it and they have done an incredibly good job so now let us just build on that. We might just ask my chief executive if he has anything to say about that.