WEDNESDAY 28 FEBRUARY 2007

MR PAUL SILVERWOOD, MR NEIL GREIG, MR ANDREW HOWARD AND MR EDMUND KING

  Q160  Chairman: So changes are needed?

  Mr Howard: Changes are needed and that is back to schools, I am afraid.

  Q161  Chairman: So what kinds of changes and do the instructors need a different type of professional training?

  Mr Howard: The instructors are getting a review of their training, that was announced earlier in the week. That is a good thing but what we have got to be able to look at is whether they are the people to provide the sort of classroom training, the training down to 12, 13 years—

  Q162  Chairman: So you are suggesting no. This is the evidence we have taken all afternoon, these people are testing, they are not testing the right things, they are teaching, because of what they have to earn, to a level of a particular test which we have already decided is the wrong test. Are you really saying that these people will not do? That is what you are actually saying, is it not?

  Mr Howard: What I do not know is whether an Approved Driving Instructor would have the necessary skills to keep the attention of a class full of 14, 15, 16, 17 year old children who perhaps do not really want to be there.

  Q163  Chairman: Your suggestion is that they would not.

  Mr Howard: I have absolutely no experience of that at all. Enough teachers have problems!

  Q164  Chairman: Are you suggesting the introduction of a minimum learning period?

  Mr Howard: I would worry about minimum learning periods. In an ideal world it would be magnificent if we could find an arrangement by which everyone who learns to drive has 100 hours of experience. Given the costs of learning to drive, the problems that people face if they have not got adults who are prepared to help, if they cannot afford that much professional tuition, it is impractical to say that should be the case, but that is a goal that is well worth pursuing.

  Q165  Chairman: I want to ask Mr Silverwood about the pre-licence training. Should this be introduced as part of a minimum learning period and structured tuition?

  Mr Silverwood: Yes, I think it should. If we could recognise off-road training, as was mentioned earlier, whereby they learn basic technical skills on how to handle a car so when they do go out on the road they have got that, it is then that you can overlay all the different hazards that they will face every day which we cannot replicate off-road and then we are going to make some improvement.

  Q166  Chairman: Are you convinced that your scheme could be replicated right the way across the United Kingdom?

  Mr Silverwood: Parts of it, yes. As we said earlier, the parental involvement is self-selecting. Trying to tackle those whose parents are not prepared to give that commitment will be a greater challenge but I still think the ethos and how we approach it within the structures of the club, a graduated scheme whereby they have to achieve certain goals before they can move on to the next one, coupled with the right approach to driving itself, both for themselves and the other road users, will make a difference.

  Q167  Chairman: Surely one of your strong points is the commitment of volunteers and people involved at every level. If you suddenly found yourself confronted with a whole group of bolshie kids whose parents had not suggested that this was a good idea, I am asking you honestly, could you cope?

  Mr Silverwood: Yes, because if they are doing it as a privilege, before they are legally entitled to be on the public road, if you take them off-road and say, "Here are your keys, drive", those who are going to be bolshie and do not want to be there can go somewhere else.

  Q168  Chairman: It is the ones who want to be somewhere else that we are targeting. What you are really saying is it depends on two things: on commitment, on getting people early enough and it must depend, although you are being very tactful about it, on having some kind of sanction for those who do not want to be there.

  Mr Silverwood: Yes, absolutely. Those ones I would question whether you are ever going to be able to reach and if you are not going to reach them at that age maybe with some changes in the structure of the test to make it more attitudinal based and a longer period and graduated licensing, all those types of issues, maybe when they are a bit older they will appreciate they missed a good opportunity.

  Q169  Clive Efford: Does it not take parents who are a bit car orientated to show that sort of commitment, a bit Jeremy Clarkson-like?

  Mr Silverwood: No. Some are but a lot are not. A lot are quite concerned that the club is elitist in that respect, that it is only for those who are interested in cars, but it is not, we have them from all walks of life. We have quite a lot of single parents who want to do the best for their kids but they have not got a clue how to go about it and this is one very good way. Just going back to the question on ADIs, I cannot comment for all ADIs but the ones we have who come to us and do not get paid for it are absolutely fantastic.

  Q170  Chairman: Are you not answering the question that we asked you? We all say we wish we could get it as well organised but are you not in effect saying you not only have ADIs who come but by definition they are those who are genuinely committed and have got, some would say, a non-commercial attitude towards what they do because they are prepared to give you time. Are you not in effect already putting up caveats on two particular things, that the young people are a self-selected group and some of the ADIs who help you already who have the professional training are themselves a self-selected group?

  Mr Silverwood: Yes, but that is not necessarily going to be the whole answer. We can get some of the youngsters at that time; others, through the structure of the test, will be picked up later on.

  Q171  Chairman: I think we understand that but we are trying to think of some way round some of the problems. The low pass rates show too many people present for their driving test before they are ready. How can we ensure that drivers are better prepared? You are telling us the ADIs when faced with this lot are teaching them to get through and if they fail presumably they sign up for another set of lessons or, even worse, say to Uncle Joe, "You're teaching me because I know it all but these idiots do not realise it".

  Mr King: I think there is some evidence that the training is geared towards passing the test and that is perhaps quite logical but this is where some kind of log book approach that covers perhaps not a minimum period in time but—

  Q172  Chairman: Mr King, you know that there are large numbers of people driving on our roads who do not give a damn about whether or not they have a log book, they are already driving without complying with existing laws.

  Mr King: Yes, quite, and that is a danger of over-complicating the system for people taking the test. It has to be kept—

  Q173  Chairman: Is that not what you are suggesting, not just a very radical change but also an extension and a limitation on those who are taking the test? I am not saying whether I think that is good or bad, I am trying to work out what you are saying.

  Mr King: What I am saying is for the driving instructors to follow a log book of core competence rather than just the pure physical things for passing the test, and that can involve more attitudinal testing as part of the training, so it makes it, if you like, less focused on the three point turn and the parallel parking or whatever, which are important and should still be there, but it tries to broaden it out.

  Q174  Chairman: So what happens if we charge people a lot more money, is that going to work?

  Mr King: I think one does have to be cautious that you do not price people out of it. You have to be cautious that the educational levels needed to pass the test—

  Q175  Chairman: Mr King, you cannot on the one hand say people are only being taught to pass the test and it is not extensive enough to judge their ability, but then when we suggest we will charge more for the test which will mean people will come less often and certainly will not be prepared to come if they think they are not ready your reply is that you must be very careful not to push them out.

  Mr King: I think you must get this balance between a cost that is affordable and perhaps getting people to think a little more whether they are ready for the test. If they had been through a log book process, they covered all the aspects that they need to pass the test, I think currently the pass rate is only about 50% so there are a lot of people wasting money and time going up for the test who are not ready for it, having the log book might actually concentrate the mind a little bit and prepare them a little more for the test.

  Q176  Clive Efford: I just want to follow up on a point that was made earlier by Mr Howard about the reduced blood alcohol content for novice drivers. This Committee has taken evidence before on the issue of the level of alcohol in the blood and whether it should be reduced or not and has not recommended a reduction. If we have identified a group of drivers where there is a specific problem is there not some logic in having a lower blood alcohol content?

  Mr Howard: As I tried to say last time, there are arguments both ways. There is this argument that you are saying, "Congratulations, you have held your driving licence for X years, now you can drink more and drive", that is a complication and something which I suspect will be a trap that an awful lot of drivers will fall into. At the other end of the scale there is obviously a very attractive idea that those drivers most likely to make mistakes and the most likely to be affected by alcohol have a lower limit.

  Q177  Clive Efford: With all due respect I know that is the argument, I am asking for your view.

  Mr Howard: I would be sorely tempted to come to the view that we are giving wrong signals and I think we would be giving wrong signals to the whole population because we would be suggesting that for young drivers there is a safe level.

  Q178  Clive Efford: So your view would be that if we have this problem with drinking and driving we should reduce the level?

  Mr Howard: I suppose I would come down to reducing it for everybody or not interfering with it for young drivers because it gives a very strange message if you say, "You can drink more once you have got so much experience".

  Q179  Clive Efford: I do not recall, did you give that evidence to us before when we were looking at that issue as part of our inquiry into road enforcement?

  Mr Howard: We have always given answers on the drink-drive limit which are very much "on one hand this, on the other hand that".

  Clive Efford: I would not dispute that for a minute.

  Chairman: No, I do not think any of us would. For the record, some of us did vote for zero alcohol in the blood and got dealt with quite sharply.