WEDNESDAY 28 FEBRUARY 2007

MS JOOLS TOWNSEND, MS BRENDA PUECH AND MRS JAN BERRY

  Chairman: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Members having an interest to declare?

  Mr Martlew: Member of the Transport and General Workers' Union and the General and Municipal Workers' Union.

  Clive Efford: Member of the Transport and General Workers' Union.

  Chairman: ASLEF.

  Mrs Ellman: Member of the Transport and General Workers' Union.

  Mr Leech: Chairman, for the witnesses that are to come, I declare that I am an associate member of the IAM and a former employee of the RAC and Arturo.

  Q1  Chairman: You are warmly welcome. Does any one of you have something to say immediately or can we go straight to questions? Does the collision involvement rate of novice drivers justify the introduction of significant changes to traffic law and the training and testing regime?

  Ms Townsend: I believe it does. We know that young drivers are involved in a disproportionately high number of road crashes, particularly involving deaths and serious injuries. Road death is the biggest killer of 16 to 24 year olds and frequently young drivers are responsible for the deaths and serious injuries of others as well as themselves and their young passengers. We recently had the publication of the Department for Transport three-year Road Safety Strategy Review, which has revealed that a particular area that we are not making as much progress in as others in terms of casualty reduction is in-vehicle deaths and serious injuries. We know that of all the age groups, 16 to 19 year olds are most likely to be killed in vehicles. In order to progress the Government's strategy and to continue to meet casualty reduction targets, we really need to address the issue of young driver safety urgently.

  Q2  Chairman: I want to as you, Ms Puech: your evidence suggests novice drivers are not the high risk group which other witnesses identify. Are we saying more enforcement and improved vehicle and road design would be a better use of government resources than measures designed specifically for novice drivers?

  Ms Puech: Novice drivers form a group at some risk to themselves, but mainly to other road users. In 2005, there were 1,077 fatalities that involved young drivers, but 300 of those were actually young drivers who were killed, so they pose a huge risk to other road users. One of the things that we feel is that the whole problem needs to be put into context. Yes, young drivers have caused and are part of one-third of casualties, but two-thirds of casualties and fatalities are caused by drivers over the age of 25. We do feel that we should not tinker with the problem, that we need to have holistic solutions to the problem. Yes, we do need to look at this problem and address it, but it needs to be kept in perspective.

  Q3  Chairman: Mrs Berry, is it a combination of inexperience and youth?

  Mrs Berry: I think it is. I agree with most of what has been said. It is interesting that whereas in many situations the casualty figures are coming down in many other groups, for young novice drivers they are actually going up. I think that is to do with age and it is also to do with experience but, more importantly, it is also to do with personality. By that I mean that some young people are risk-averse and some have no fear, and that is part of the problem.

  Q4  Chairman: The trouble is what driver training is going to equip novice drivers with that kind of experience?

  Mrs Berry: By way of an example, we have seen a change in the test regime over the last few years where you have always had a practical test and you now have a practical and a theory test. As part of that theory test, you now have to have the hazard perception. I think you can train people to a certain extent to identify what might be dangerous and what might not be dangerous. The key here is then analysing what they are going to do when they take part in a hazardous event. That is not tested at all at the moment. There are facilities, both in this country and in other parts of the world, where you could have that as part of the test. I see that as being an incremental improvement to the hazard perception test that we have currently.

  Q5  Chairman: How well do you think the programme for instructors currently assists learner drivers to gain the necessary skills?

  Mrs Berry: That is difficult because it goes down to the skills of the individual. Some research tends to suggest—

  Q6  Chairman: It does not entirely, does it, because you have just told us that one of the problems is that they are not being tested on the one thing that you think would identify the problem.

  Mrs Berry: No, I think the personality of some people and their skills will pick up driving better than others, but there is research that suggests that you do not reach driving maturity until you have had about five to seven years driving experience.

  Q7  Chairman: We are not suggesting that, are we?

  Mrs Berry: No, not at all. We have just done a piece of research with the Metropolitan Police, for example, where we were testing the behaviour of pursuit driving. It is very clear that the more experience you have of that type of behaviour, the better you are at identifying risk. That is for professional drivers who have been through six weeks' training.

  Q8  Chairman: That is interesting. Does that mean that in fact the Metropolitan Police are going back to the older tradition of picking people who are fairly mature for those kinds of jobs on the assumption that they have got experience?

  Mrs Berry: Certainly, from the research that we have undertaken, that is one of the recommendations that we will be making.

  Q9  Mrs Ellman: Ms Townsend, Brake has recommended a minimum of a 12-month learning period. How would that work?

  Ms Townsend: We think it is important that we do have, first of all, a minimum learning period. We have recommended 12 months for a number of reasons. Statistics published in the Department for Transport 2002 consultation on a More Structured Approach to Learning to Drive suggested that we would prevent 1,000 deaths and serious injuries each year if we had a minimum of a 12-month learning period. That is a significantly higher figure than if we have a six-month minimum learning period, which would result in an estimated 120 deaths and serious injuries being prevented each year. We know that certain driving skills, particularly hazard perception, develop gradually over time, as Jan Berry has mentioned. Having that minimum period in place would mean that drivers would have to have a certain level of experience before they can take their test. At present, it is possible for young people to take the test and pass within just a few weeks of turning 17. Frequently, we hear stories about that happening. Because of the focus of the driving test on the physical skills involved in controlling a vehicle, you can pick up a lot of those skills through off-road practice. The current test is not focused on having that on-road experience.

  Q10  Mrs Ellman: Would you then be specifying the number of hours and practice and tuition? Would that be part of the plan?

  Ms Townsend: Yes. We would like to see a minimum learning period. Ideally, we would like to see that as part of a graduated driver licensing system, and in the minimum learning period, yes, we would recommend, for example, 10 hours with a professional instructor. We are not opposed to learners having additional tuition with non-professionals, but we think additional controls could be added to ensure that learners are getting the right tuition from non-professionals as well: for example, if you are going to act as a supervisor, you have to be at least 25 years of age, have for example five years' driving experience, a clean driving licence and perhaps fill in a form to declare yourself as suitable for that role.

  Q11  Mrs Ellman: Have any of you seen the Department's new proposals for driver testing and training which were published earlier this week?

  Ms Townsend: That is the three-year strategy review. It was suggested in the document that the current learning and testing procedures are going to be overhauled. It did hint at the fact that the issue of the driving test's current focus on practical skills involved in controlling a vehicle may be addressed so that the test is more geared towards encouraging safe driving. We welcome that but of course the document did not specify how they might go about introducing that and informing the training and testing procedures.

  Q12  Mrs Ellman: The evidence is that Pass Plus does not seem to improve safety for novice drivers. Do you have any idea as to why that should be?

  Ms Puech: As I say, Pass Plus has not shown a significant improvement in falls in collision numbers after novice drivers complete this course. That is to do with the fact that more exposure to driving is more beneficial than having one or two days of concentrated driver training. That is why we agree with the minimum learning period and we want to see a minimum of 100 hours of learning before you even take your test. If you combine that with a graduated licensing system where you have supervision over the next two years with an experienced driver, then that broad exposure to different driving conditions in the US and Canada has been proven to be more beneficial and to reduce collision rates amongst novice drivers. It is the length of exposure rather than concentrated training.

  Q13  Mr Leech: As far as Pass Plus is concerned, is possibly the reason why they do not show any real difference with Pass Plus because the people who take the Pass Plus are not necessarily the people that you need to target?

  Ms Townsend: We would absolutely agree with that. About 14% of people who pass their test take Pass Plus.

  Q14  Chairman: Mrs Berry, you were nodding.

  Mrs Berry: Yes. It is self-selection. The people who may be more dangerous on the roads are the people who will not volunteer to take part in it.

  Q15  Mrs Ellman: Should the driving test include psychometric tests?

  Ms Townsend: We think that is something that should be researched and looked into. It is increasingly being used by companies operating vehicle fleets. I understand it is also being used on driver rehabilitation schemes and is showing positive results.

  Q16  Chairman: You are telling us that people operating commercial fleets are using a psychometric driving test before they take on people. This has come as a great shock to me.

  Ms Townsend: I do not think it is that widespread at present but we are aware of several companies using it, both at the time of recruiting drivers—

  Q17  Chairman: Name the companies?

  Ms Townsend: Arriva. It is showing itself to be a way—

  Q18  Chairman: There must be someone else other than Arriva. You dug yourself into this hole!

  Ms Townsend: That is one example I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure I could go away and research others. It is showing itself to be a way of effectively identifying those drivers who are more likely to take risks, who are less likely—

  Chairman: I do not think I necessarily want to know what psychological questions Arriva are asking.

  Q19  Mr Scott: How could the driving theory test be modified to provide a better indication of safe driving behaviour?

  Ms Townsend: We would like to see more in the theory test to do with risk. I think there is scope within the theory test to ensure that learners have at least a basic understanding of the risks they would face on the roads and the risks under which they could place others. For example, we could be including questions about the likelihood of a pedestrian being killed if hit at different speeds. There is definitely scope to include that within the theory test specifically.

  Mrs Berry: There is also an opportunity perhaps to use simulators or computer games in a more effective way. As I said earlier, for the hazard perception test, I think you can train people to identify what is a hazard. The real skill is what you do when you are faced with that hazard. At the moment, a lot of young people are playing computer games where they can race cars around a track; the cars crash off, they pick them all up and put them back on the track. If you were to use some of those in a more constructive way, that could be quite impactive and it could, with some research, be adopted within the test.