Dr Burhan Mahmoud Al-Chalabi

20 April 2006

Q60  Sir Philip Mawer: Understood. You went to Baghdad to get clearance for the flight. You also, either at that time or before, had been seeking sources of funding to enable this flight, which would be expensive, to take place. You had, is it prior to your visit to Baghdad, made contact with a number of companies, including Fortum?

Dr Al-Chalabi: Yes.

Q61  Sir Philip Mawer: And you had given them some advice.

Dr Al-Chalabi: Yes.

Q62  Sir Philip Mawer: When you were in Baghdad, are we talking about December or March here? December 1999 or March 2000?

Dr Al-Chalabi: No. I am pretty sure it was on the first visit.

Q63  Sir Philip Mawer: On the first visit. When you were there you made it known that you had made approaches to these companies, which included Fortum?

Dr Al-Chalabi: It was called Neste Oy.

Q64  Sir Philip Mawer: Yes, indeed. The name has changed. It is a wholly owned subsidiary, I understand, of Fortum. You were in touch with these companies—and that you were in a sense their agent?

Dr Al-Chalabi: Yes.

Mr Al-Mukhtar: Yes.

Q65  Sir Philip Mawer: Subsequently, just to complete the picture, Neste/Fortum received an oil contract?

Dr Al-Chalabi: Yes, because, as you know, they are well known to the government.

Q66  Sir Philip Mawer: Through your agency, because you were the agent?

Dr Al-Chalabi: I do not know whether it was through my agency or through my help or because they had made their position clear on the sanctions.

Q67  Sir Philip Mawer: You had advised them, you mentioned earlier, to make their position clear on the sanctions. They clearly felt, it appears, an obligation to you because they paid you commission.

Dr Al-Chalabi: Correct.

Q68  Sir Philip Mawer: So they felt they were getting something for what you had done for them.

Dr Al-Chalabi: Correct.

Q69  Sir Philip Mawer: If my understanding is correct, and you have not dissented at all from my understanding, you might draw the conclusion from the story that you have given me that the object of the then Iraqi regime in giving a contract to Neste/Fortum through your agency, and telling Neste/Fortum it had been achieved through your agency presumably, was to enable funds to flow to support the mercy flight. Would that be a fair conclusion in your view?

Mr Al-Mukhtar: No. This is the result of it, because Iraq had to sell oil. They had to sell to any company. They sold to American companies, Japanese companies, European companies, so it was felt that the companies which are friendly to us should get oil as well. Why sell to the American companies who are taking a position against us when we can sell to the Norwegians who act for this company?

Q70  Sir Philip Mawer: As you know, few contracts were placed with American companies, some but not many.

Mr Al-Mukhtar: Of course.

Q71  Sir Philip Mawer: Similarly, very few actually were UK donations, except for those which, according to the State Oil Ministry records, were made, one, to Dr Al-Chalabi or, two, to Fawaz Zureikat (the Mariam appeal) (George Galloway). That is the allegation.

Dr Al-Chalabi: The oil contract was not for me. The oil contract was for Fortum. I was a complete outsider. I was a commission agent.

Q72  Sir Philip Mawer: How do you explain the appearance in the State Oil Ministry records, which as you know list all the contracts awarded, of your name and also that of Mr Galloway in relation to the contract M/07/83? How would you explain that?

Dr Al-Chalabi: I do not know about Mr Galloway. I attended the first meeting between SOMO and a representative of Fortum, so I can—probably a note of attendance. That is the only thing I can—my comments are.

Q73  Sir Philip Mawer: So your attendance at that meeting was as agent for Fortum? Did you effect the introduction between them and the Oil Ministry?

Dr Al-Chalabi: Yes, I took them there.

Q74  Sir Philip Mawer: You mentioned Mr Amin earlier in the conversation. Is that Mudhafar Amin?

Dr Al-Chalabi: Mudhafar, yes.

Q75  Sir Philip Mawer: Who was at that time the chargé d'affaires in the Iraqi Embassy in London, as I recall?

Dr Al-Chalabi: He was the head of the Iraqi section of the Royal Jordanian Embassy.

Q76  Sir Philip Mawer: Forgive me. In essence he was the senior Iraqi diplomat in London at that time?

Dr Al-Chalabi: Yes.

Q77  Sir Philip Mawer: That is helpful. Can I, moving on, ask you when you …..

Mr Al-Mukhtar: Sir Philip, do forgive me if I just add one thing. The sale contract clearly is between SOMO and Fortum, so whatever reference is in the SOMO schedules is a mere note to the actual contractual relationship. The contractual relationship is signed by SOMO and the Norwegian company.

Q78  Sir Philip Mawer: I understand the point you are making, and I am sure that legally you are correct but, as you yourself indicated earlier, Mr Al-Mukhtar, the then Iraqi Government was in the habit of using—and understandably so, given its position—its oil contracts as a means of rewarding people who were favourable to its views and withholding them from people who were not favourable to its views.

Mr Al-Mukhtar: Absolutely.

Q79  Sir Philip Mawer: So the SOMO documents are not just an indication of with whom legally there was a contractual relationship over a particular oil delivery, but they are also an indication of in whose favour the contracts were being awarded, that is, of the wider purpose, if you like, of the contracts, and in that context the appearance of the names of Dr Al-Chalabi and Mr Galloway together appears significant.

Mr Al-Mukhtar: This is the point that I am trying to address, that too much emphasis has been put on some note which a clerk in the department puts on a piece of paper. Principally it is because this is by way of identifying which company was introduced by whom or something, rather than—I mean, it is preposterous to suggest that at the end of the day a state oil company like Fortum, which is a government agency, it is a European government agency,— to reduce it to a front for whether Mr Galloway or Dr Chalabi or whoever, is a little bit unreasonable, so this is the only point I am trying to make, but by all means—I thought I would just mention this to you.

Dr Al-Chalabi: And leaving aside the political view of the Iraqi Government, taking the humanitarian side, if an action is going to focus attention on the suffering of the Iraqi people, I think that is a view that would be shared by all humanitarians. I have no problem with that.