MR ANDREW ROLLERSON

7 MARCH 2007

  Q300  Chairman: I think provide it in a note.[1]

  Mr Rollerson: I would be very happy to do that.

  Q301  Mr Khan: Have you been suspended from your employment?

  Mr Rollerson: I have.

  Q302  Mr Khan: Since when?

  Mr Rollerson: Since the day the Computer Weekly article appeared.

  Q303  Mr Khan: That was when?

  Mr Rollerson: Monday 13 February, I think.

  Q304  Mr Khan: Your evidence is that you have not retained lawyers?

  Mr Rollerson: I have retained lawyers but not for the purposes of attending this Committee.

  Q305  Mr Khan: That was not my question, my question was have you retained lawyers to do with your employment?

  Mr Rollerson: Yes.

  Q306  Mr Khan: Do you want to change that evidence? My question was quite specific, have you retained solicitors to deal with your employment and your answer was "No".

  Mr Rollerson: I have not retained lawyers at this point. I am waiting to see the outcome of the internal inquiry within Fujitsu before I determine whether I will do that.

  Q307  Mr Khan: During the period of time when you have moved on internally from Fujitsu, from the post you previously held where you had an opinion worthy of being deemed an expert to where you are now, during that period of time where these concerns were brought to your attention, have you brought to the attention of those now in charge of this project the concerns brought to your attention?

  Mr Rollerson: There is ongoing debate within Fujitsu about the best way of delivering the contract.

  Q308  Mr Khan: It is a really easy question, I will ask you again. Have you brought to the attention of those people who can do something about it and not seek publicity your concerns?

  Mr Rollerson: Two things. No, I have not specifically sought influence on either of those two subjects, neither have I sought publicity.

  Q309  Mr Khan: Do you think that it would be a sensible thing to do, to bring to the attention of your employers the concerns that you brought to the attention of these executives and these journalists?

  Mr Rollerson: I went through the official internal process within Fujitsu for gaining approval for a talk before I delivered it.

  Q310  Mr Bacon: Mr Rollerson, I have to say you seem like a fairly unlikely folk hero and it is very obvious from your comments that you are not comfortable in that role, and I do not suppose when you attended this conference that you were expecting at all to be cast in that role. When you read the comments on the Internet—and I have looked at a few from various specialist websites that deal in health IT—it is as if somehow you were the one who let the finger out of the dam and then a whole collective sigh of relief went around the health IT sector. Do you think that is a fair characterisation?

  Mr Rollerson: I think that is absolutely spot on.

  Q311  Mr Bacon: One comment said, "I cannot believe there are many people who have been surprised by what Andrew Rollerson said. Such openness and realism in those close to health is a refreshing change". Another one said, "It is good to hear the truth from the top at last". Another one said, "Those at the coalface within NPFIT have been telling their masters much of what Mr Rollerson said. Well done to Andrew Rollerson and others for exposing the real issues", "Kudos to Rollerson", and so it goes on. I suppose the real issue is what is to be done to try and improve things? I know it is difficult, but in one or two sentences can you say what the nub is of what you think should be changed to make it work better?

  Mr Rollerson: There are two things. One, I believe, is visionary and proactive leadership from the business itself, from the trust, from the NHS. It is, in my view, very much an IT-driven project and historically they have not succeeded. There is and there will be more resistance from the trusts if it is driven relentlessly along an IT path. I believe it is essential that the trusts are engaged so that the ultimate aim of the programme, which is the enablement of the transformation, the NHS, can be realised.

  Q312  Mr Bacon: Do you think trusts are more likely to be engaged if they are installing systems they want?

  Mr Rollerson: I think that would be true.

  Q313  Mr Bacon: In other words, to get ownership, that is really what you would think of almost as a precursor. If they do not like what is being foisted upon them, they are less likely to be engaged, and if they want the systems that they are being offered they are more likely to be. That would be fair, would it not?

  Mr Rollerson: I think it would be fair, but it is essential to engage the trusts in the discussions about why the national programme is the way it is and how it needs to be the way it is to achieve what it is trying to achieve. I do not subscribe to the view that the fragmented approach of before with a myriad of suppliers would have led to the possibilities of achieving what we are about to achieve.

  Q314  Mr Bacon: Do you think there is a balance that might provide a sensible way forward, not necessarily with a myriad but from a framework agreement, a panel of proven suppliers, where you have a balance between a central setting of standards and local choice, subject to compliance with those common standards?

  Mr Rollerson: That is one potential way forward, but within the current contract the trusts have the ability to contract through the suppliers for additional services, so there are many suppliers engaged but they are now focused through the LSPs.

  Q315  Mr Bacon: In terms of the core systems that they take, they do not have a regular choice, do they? With Fujitsu they have to install Cerner Millennium; if it is any of the three clusters now with CSC they have to install iSoft Lorenzo, assuming iSoft Lorenzo eventually gets developed. That is correct, is it not?

  Mr Rollerson: It is correct, yes.

  Q316  Mr Bacon: So as far as the core system is concerned, they have to go with that one?

  Mr Rollerson: Yes.

  Q317  Mr Bacon: The managing director, Mr Peter Hutchinson, who wrote to the Committee, describes you as: "nor is he a senior executive of the company". If you led a team of 18 healthcare consultants, does that not make you quite a senior manager?

  Mr Rollerson: A senior manager, yes, but not an executive.

  Q318  Mr Bacon: So that is a definition of the executive committee of the company?

  Mr Rollerson: Yes, I am not on the executive committee.

  Q319  Mr Bacon: But you are a senior person within Fujitsu?

  Mr Rollerson: Yes.