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Welsh Grand Committee
Thursday 23 June 2005
The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chairman: †Mr. Martin Caton
†Ainger, Nick (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales)
†Brennan, Kevin (Cardiff, West) (Lab)
†Bryant, Chris (Rhondda) (Lab)
†Clwyd, Ann (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
†Crabb, Mr. Stephen (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)
David, Mr. Wayne (Caerphilly) (Lab)
†Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth) (Con)
Flynn, Paul (Newport, West) (Lab)
†Francis, Dr. Hywel (Aberavon) (Lab)
†Griffith, Nia (Llanelli) (Lab)
†Hain, Mr. Peter (Secretary of State for Wales)
Hanson, Mr. David (Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office)
Havard, Mr. Dai (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)
Howells, Dr. Kim (Minister for the Middle East)
Irranca-Davies, Huw (Ogmore) (Lab)
†James, Mrs. Siân C. (Swansea, East) (Lab)
†Jones, Mr. David (Clwyd, West) (Con)
†Jones, Mr. Martyn (Clwyd, South) (Lab)
†Law, Peter (Blaenau Gwent) (Ind)
†Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC)
†Lucas, Ian (Wrexham) (Lab)
Michael, Alun (Minister for Industry and the Regions)
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine (Bridgend) (Lab)
†Morden, Jessica (Newport, East) (Lab)
†Morgan, Julie (Cardiff, North) (Lab)
†Murphy, Mr. Paul (Torfaen) (Lab)
†Öpik, Lembit (Montgomeryshire) (LD)
†Owen, Albert (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
†Price, Adam (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC)
†Ruane, Chris (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
Ruffley, Mr. David (Bury St. Edmunds) (Con)
Smith, John (Vale of Glamorgan) (Lab)
†Tami, Mark (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
Touhig, Mr. Don (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence)
†Wiggin, Bill (Leominster) (Con)
Williams, Mr. Alan (Swansea, West) (Lab)
Williams, Mrs. Betty (Conwy) (Lab)
†Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon) (PC)
†Williams, Mark (Ceredigion) (LD)
†Williams, Mr. Roger (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
†Willott, Jenny (Cardiff, Central) (LD)
John Benger, Committee Clerk
†attended the Committee
[Mr. Martin Caton in the Chair]
Government's Legislative Programme
1 pm
The Chairman: It may be helpful if I remind Members that the debate on the motion can continue until 5.30 pm.
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): On a point of order, Mr. Caton.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Can we remove our jackets?
Mr. Llwyd: That, too, but this point of order takes precedence; I shall deal with jackets in a moment.
I received a note via the usual channels saying that I shall be speaking for Plaid Cymru together with the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis). I regard the hon. Gentleman highly, and we in Plaid Cymru are not control freaks, but if he is going to speak for the party I would ask for a few minutes to discuss exactly what needs to be said.
The Chairman: Clearly an error has been made. Members may remove their jackets.
1.1 pm
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the matter of the Government's legislative programme as outlined in the Queen's Speech as it relates to Wales.
Before we begin our debate, Mr. Caton, I congratulate you on your appointment as Chairman of the Welsh Grand Committee. I also record my thanks and appreciation for the contribution made by your predecessor, Mr. Griffiths, the former Member for Bridgend. He was one of the most respected Members and, as I have remarked on other occasions, he was unique in this place in that he had no enemies.
I am delighted, as Secretary of State for Wales, to address the Committee and to set out the legislative programme for the first Session of a first-ever third-term Labour Government.
I note that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) is present today; he has been a tremendous support to me, and I know that everyone in Wales is proud of the role that he played in Northern Ireland. Although he did not gain a profile for it, he was the engineer of the Good Friday agreement and of the progress that has been made. If I can do the job of Secretary of State for Northern Ireland half as well as he did, I will be pleased.
The outlook for Wales is extremely positive. Employment is up by 110,000 since 1997. Private sector business activity in Wales is growing for the 26th month in a row. Unemployment has halved. Exports are up 14 per cent., which is higher growth than any in other part of the United Kingdom.
Against that background, the Queen's Speech contains an unprecedented legislative programme for
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Wales. The trail-blazing Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill, the Welsh clauses on public smoking in the Health Improvement and Protection Bill, and new transport powers all demonstrate that the Government are working in partnership with the Assembly to enable it to take forward its policy agenda in Wales.
Only last week, we published the ''Better Governance for Wales'' White Paper as a prelude to introducing a Bill based on it in this Session. That ground-breaking White Paper will move the devolution process forward, help deliver better public services and improve on the economic success that Wales has seen in recent years. It will help build a world-class Wales.
Although the general election was only seven weeks ago, two Wales-only Bills, the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill and the Transport (Wales) Bill, have already had their Second readings—one in the Commons and one in the other place—and have received a broad welcome. Later in the Session, we will be publishing for pre-legislative scrutiny a draft Bill on tourism accommodation registration in Wales. With three Wales-only Bills and one draft Wales-only Bill, the Government's commitment and determination to give the Welsh Assembly the tools to deliver policies tailored to the needs of people in Wales has once again been clearly demonstrated.
The Queen's Speech promised a Bill to reform the devolution settlement for Wales. The White Paper sets out the Government's proposals for that Bill. We are not proposing change for its own sake, but to ensure that the Assembly continues to meet people's needs in Wales and that it remains accessible and accountable to them.
The White Paper deals with three concerns. First, the creation of the Assembly as a corporate body has led to confusion: confusion in the Assembly itself as its Members try to balance their role in developing policy with their role in scrutinising the decisions of Ministers in implementing that policy, and confusion in the minds of the people of Wales as to who is accountable for the decisions that affect their schools and hospitals. That is why we propose a formal separation between the Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government.
Secondly, there is the legislative framework within which the Assembly operates. Since devolution, there has been far more Wales-only legislation in Westminster than ever before. It has been carried through by my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen and subsequently by me. Opposition Members might concentrate on the number of Wales-only Bills, but that does not give a true picture; much Wales-only legislation has been in Bills covering England and Wales. However, the timetable for that legislation has depended on the Whitehall and Westminster timetable, which has not always chimed with the way policy is being developed in Cardiff.
We therefore propose to enhance the Assembly's legislative powers through a staged process. First, we shall give the Assembly wider and more permissive powers in drafting current Bills, beginning this Session. Then, we shall provide new powers for it to
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enact measures. Finally, we shall provide the option of a post-legislative referendum to trigger primary legislative powers in the future.
Thirdly, we have what has become known as the Clwyd, West issue, with candidates soundly defeated in a constituency election still ending up as Assembly Members by election through the regional list. Widespread concern has been expressed about this issue in Wales, including by the Electoral Reform Society, which gave evidence to the Richard commission.
Mr. Llwyd: May I take the right hon. Gentleman back a sentence or two to his reference to a post-legislative referendum? When the Bill is published, will it include full details of a Welsh Parliament, or at least a fully legislative Chamber, as foreseen by the Government?
Mr. Hain: If I interpret the hon. Gentleman's question in my own way and use my own language, I can tell him that the Bill will contain primary powers. Those will be enacted when it receives Royal Assent, so no further legislation will be needed to implement them, save for an Order in Council. That would trigger a referendum under the process that I outlined, which is why I described it as a post-legislative referendum.
I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman has sought clarification of that on the record. Those in the ranks of his party and those Liberal Democrats who want a full Welsh Parliament ought at least to acknowledge the progressive advance represented by having primary powers on the statute book as a result of the Bill, even though they will be waiting to be triggered some years in the future. We have not been given sufficient credit for that, if I may say so.
We will give candidates the choice of standing for either the constituency or the list elections, but they will no longer be allowed to stand in both.
Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): I distinctly remember asking in an earlier debate whether candidates could stand on the list in one constituency and under the first-past-the-post system in another. Has the right hon. Gentleman given some thought to whether that possibility will arise?
Mr. Hain: No. We are clearly proposing that there is a choice to be made. A candidate stands either in the constituency section or in the list section; that applies across Wales. Either they decide that they will seek to represent a constituency and, if they are defeated, that will be the voters' verdict on them, or they decide to be a list candidate.
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