MRS LYNN FARR, MR GEOFF GRAY, MRS NORMA LANGFORD AND PROFESSOR BRICE DICKSON

2 MARCH 2006

  Q700  Vera Baird: What are you arguing for?

  Mrs Langford: An independent ombudsman for overseas. It is necessary because you do not get any reports. The investigations are not followed through properly. There is just nothing coming back from overseas at all if you have a death. You cannot complain to anybody because you do not know who is dealing with it. You have one Army officer that comes to you and talks about it but there is nobody. All you know is somebody at the other end is looking into a death. In my own case, I think a sergeant seemed to be the highest who looked into the death of my son.

  Q701  Vera Baird: What are you recommending though? I cannot see the ombudsman role fitting a death investigation very happily.

  Mrs Langford: I thought perhaps it could fit in deaths overseas.

  Q702  Chairman: An ombudsman's role would be more to investigate whether an investigation had been conducted properly rather than conducting an investigation.

  Mrs Langford: There are no civilian police involved. This is where overseas we have the Army investigating the Army. There is no one else involved in many, many cases.

  Mrs Farr: The only country that does that is Cyprus because they have the sovereignty police in place. They do get some civilian police but in any other barracks abroad there are no civilian police involved.

  Mrs Langford: You do not know what sort of standards are going on. I know the standards in my own reports, but—

  Q703  Vera Baird: I can very readily see the problem and I know that you are personally concerned. It is just a solution I am groping for.

  Mrs Langford: I look to the government to find their solution. I am not technical enough to know what is what.

  Professor Dickson: Deaths overseas are a category which the independent ombudsman ought to have a duty to investigate. I know there will be difficulties dealing with deaths occurring overseas. Let us leave to one side deaths in combat situations because they are perhaps different but, in other non-combat situations, it should not be too difficult to develop a system whereby the independent ombudsman can at least lead the investigation overseas, in conjunction perhaps with the local civilian police. There would need to be memoranda of agreement established to arrive at a cooperation to work effectively.

  Q704  Chairman: That is not traditionally the way we see the role of an ombudsman, is it?

  Professor Dickson: The Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland has a duty to investigate deaths caused by the police.

  Chairman: My understanding is that that happens where the police have conducted an investigation and it is felt in some way to be unsatisfactory, not the initial investigation itself. I may be wrong in that.

  Q705  Vera Baird: The IPCC in the civilian police here has been told to look into the death of Mr de Menezes. That is a primary inquiry that they are carrying out, not a review of any other inquiry. I see the analogy. It is going to take quite an amount of skilful engineering, I would have thought.

  Mrs Langford: That is why I could not answer because I know it is so technical. I do need to point out that overseas we cannot ask any questions.

  Chairman: Can I thank you for your patience with us. We can meander a little bit as a Committee from time to time but we do try to get to the point eventually. I realise that these occasions must be difficult for you individually and I am very grateful for the dignified way in which you have presented your points to us today. Thank you.