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The commissioner will have the power to make representations to the Assembly, but there is no requirement for the Assembly to respond, nor for it to pass such representations to the Westminster Government and thus, at the end of that rather circumlocutory process, for the Westminster Government to respond at all. The key problem is that the Bill gives us no confidence about non-devolved matters, many of which have been mentioned. Some aspects of health and education have been devolved but others are non-devolved. Under the Bill, there is no clear process whereby the commissioner will be able to consider those matters comprehensively, which seriously weakens the Government’s stated intent for the measure. It weakens the independence of the commissioner. If he or she has no right to communicate directly with the Government but has to
go via the Assembly Government, not only will there be questions about the commissioner’s independence from the Assembly Government, but the comprehensiveness of the commissioner’s role as champion and advocate will be weakened.
Older people, like younger and middle-aged people in Wales, are not necessarily constitutional experts and might not understand the intricacies of the devolution settlement. They see services—whoever provides them—and they want the older people’s commissioner to take up their problems, regardless of whether Westminster or Cardiff Bay is accountable according to the settlement. That is the problem facing the Government under the Bill as currently drafted. Indeed, it is line with what the people of Wales are saying.
One of the questions in the consultation exercise conducted by the National Assembly for Wales was:
“Do you agree that the new powers establishing the Commission should include the power to make representations directly to the UK Government on issues of importance to older people in Wales?”
One hundred and thirty-nine respondents agreed that the commissioner should have the formal power to make direct representations; only two disagreed. It is absolutely clear that stakeholder and representative organisations, including Age Concern and Help the Aged, support the principle that the commissioner be given formal powers on non-devolved matters. That was the position of the Welsh Assembly’s advisory group on setting up the older people’s commissioner and it was also taken by a majority of the Assembly’s Health and Social Services Committee, including its Labour members. There is wide consensus in Wales that the commissioner should have the power to initiate research and make reports on areas of non-devolved policy. That would be the basis for the fireside chats down the road at Gwydyr House.
Finally, I want to touch on the definition of age, on which the shadow Secretary of State for Wales expounded. It is an important issue. In the consultation, the majority of the consultees came out in favour of the principle of flexibility and supported giving the commissioner the right to look at issues involving people aged 50-plus, although accepting the general definition of 60, which has not changed since the Bill was in draft form. There should be some flexibility, especially in employment-related matters where age discrimination is as serious, if not more serious, in Wales, due to our demographics. It is likely that the commissioner for older people in Wales will be up and running before the UK commission for equality and human rights, so I urge the Minister to look again at flexibility, possibly through regulation, in terms of age-related issues that affect people at 50 plus. That is the age for the starting-point of the Welsh Assembly Government’s welcome and innovative older people’s strategy, so there should be some flexibility under the Bill, too. Clearly, as has been mentioned, there are also health issues for the 50-plus cohort, particularly in relation to Alzheimer’s and other dementia-related diseases. I appeal to the Minister for flexibility in the definition of the age, if possible.
May we please give the older people’s commissioner the power to investigate quite legitimately areas of
policy that traverse non-devolved and devolved matters? Clearly, they will be of concern to older people in Wales.
2.20 pm
Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): It is a pleasure to speak in this debate and to follow the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr (Adam Price). I welcome the Bill and see it as part of the Labour Government in Wales and the Labour Government in Westminster delivering for older people in Wales. I welcome the fact that there is all-party support for the Bill. I was heavily involved in setting up the children’s commissioner. I was on the Committee for the Care Standards Bill and then the Bill to set up the children’s commissioner. I welcome the fact that the commissioner for older people has been modelled on the Children’s Commissioner for Wales. As the previous speaker said, the role includes taking up complaints and fighting against injustice, but it also encompasses the power to advocate things in relation to wider issues.
In Wales, the children’s commissioner has generally been regarded as a success. The commissioner has been independent and the body has succeeded in influencing the Assembly. It has been highly critical of the Assembly over certain issues and has had a response. Peter Clarke has been seen as a champion for children and I hope that the person who holds the post that we are discussing will be seen as a champion for older people. I hope that the appointment process will draw in older people in the way that the appointment process for the children’s commissioner drew in children. Children played a vital role in the appointment of the commissioner.
We need a champion for older people in Wales because the elderly suffer from discrimination in many ways. A recent report by Age Concern said that 29 per cent. of people reported suffering age discrimination. That is more than any other type of discrimination. We are all living longer, which is a matter for rejoicing, but it does cause issues for society, particularly in relation to health and pensions. I am pleased that the Assembly’s policies have emphasised keeping older people active and healthy. The free bus travel, which was pioneered by the Assembly Member for my seat, Sue Essex, has been a huge success. My constituents have told me that it has enabled many of them to travel around, be active and get out in a way that they have not been able to do before. In the same way, the free swimming for older people is a positive affirmation of how older people can keep active and play a valuable role in society. The appointment of a commissioner for older people will emphasise the positive, valued contribution that older people make to society, as well as looking at all the problems that can arise in the health care service and the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon) mentioned.
I want to raise a few specific points about the Bill with the Minister. Some of them have been covered already by several speakers and by the Secretary of State in his introduction. One of the main concerns for elderly people is finance in old age. We know that Wales, on the whole, is a poor country and many elderly people live in poverty. I strongly support the Government’s White Paper. It is a good basis on which
to move forward for the future. It is important to recognise what a big step that White Paper is. If we look at the situation of women, we see that they have fared badly with pensions. We all know why that is: they have been looking after children or elderly people and have not been able to build up a pension contribution record.
It is difficult to separate the different strands in people’s lives—finance, caring and health needs. As other speakers have said, some of those issues are devolved and some are not. It would be helpful if, when he responds, the Minister could again spell out the routes by which those different aspects of people’s lives can be dealt with by the different people who are taking responsibility for them. We went through the debate about devolved and non-devolved issues when the children’s commissioner was set up and I do not want to go on about it any more today. However, the reason these different problems have surfaced when setting up the children’s commissioner, and now this commissioner, is linked to the devolution settlement. We have to find practical ways forward and the children’s commissioner has done that, but I would be grateful if the Minister could go over what mechanisms are going to be used.
The other point that I wanted to raise was about how the commissioner will relate to similar posts, such as the ombudsman who is in post at the moment and, in particular, the new equality and human rights commission, which is not mentioned in the Bill because it has not been set up yet. Given that that commission will have a specific responsibility for age discrimination, it is important that clear links are established between the two bodies. I assume that thought has been given to how they will relate to each other.
There is also the issue of support for the commissioner. As other speakers have said, this is the first post of its kind in the UK and possibly in the world. I hope that the other countries in the UK will follow, as happened with the children’s commissioner. However, when the children’s commissioner took up his post, there was an established network of children’s commissioners and ombudsmen throughout Europe and the world. Long before the children’s commissioner was appointed, I can remember an inspirational meeting in Cardiff with the Danish children’s ombudsman, at which the idea of a children’s commissioner in Wales was raised. When the appointment was made, the children’s commissioner had a network to relate to immediately and he was able to link in to the sort of issues that were being discussed on that network. He was able to get support from that organisation. He also relates to the children’s commissioners who have been appointed in all the other devolved bodies in the UK and now in England. It is quite important to think about where the commissioner for older people will fit in. Who will he relate to, who will support him, who will raise the issues and what will there be agreement on?
It is important that the commissioner makes links with elderly people in the different ethnic communities in Wales. I know that, older people in many of those communities are isolated, particularly if they cannot
speak the language. It is important that the commissioner is for everybody in Wales, including the ethnic communities.
I hope that the commissioner will campaign on general issues, as well as dealing with problems in care homes and things that have to be put right. I hope that he will be able to campaign for a general improvement in the community and society. I know that one of the main issues that came up when Peter Clarke was going round talking to children about what was most important to them was the state of school toilets. He has campaigned about toilets and, in my area, there has been a considerable improvement in the toilets for children. I hope that the same thing will happen with elderly people.
One of the issues that elderly people bring up a lot with me is the lack of local facilities. As do many other people in the community, they bemoan the loss of small corner shops and the demise of small local shopping centres. I attended a packed meeting in the week before last in Birchgrove, which is in the Heath area of my constituency. Many of the people at the meeting were elderly, and they were protesting about another Tesco Extra coming to a street in the Heath outside the main shopping area. They fear that the local corner shops that they can get to easily will disappear because those shops will not be able to compete. They thus worry that they will lose the personal service that they receive. A lot of the worry about post offices came from elderly people who depended on being able to get to their local facilities.
I hope that the commissioner for older people will take up such issues because they affect the quality of life of many elderly people. Many such people have a good pattern to their lives. They go down to the local shop to get a newspaper and groceries, but that pattern of life has been disrupted in our area by the demise of some of the local shopping centres.
The Bill is good. We need to discuss aspects of it further, but they really relate to the fact that devolution has happened and we have an Assembly in Wales. We need to try to work out a way of dealing with devolved and non-devolved matters. I support the Bill.
2.31 pm
Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): As the father of two extremely avid Wrexham supporters, I assure the Secretary of State and everyone else in the Chamber that I will not detain the House any longer than is absolutely necessary.
We have had an interesting debate. It is clear that the Bill has received a broad welcome from hon. Members on both sides of the House. Indeed, it would be strange if that was not the case. The problems faced by older people in Wales and, indeed, the whole of the United Kingdom are well known and have been touched on by many hon. Members. Poor housing, poor nutrition, inadequate transport services and employment discrimination are but a few of the problems faced by older people, yet older people can—and do—play an important role in our national life. Indeed, as the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) pointed out, many
of them are extremely active and run businesses well beyond what would otherwise be their retirement age.
If the commissioner can make a difference that will improve the lives of older people, the role will be greatly welcomed in Wales. The proposal of appointing a champion for older people is thus broadly welcomed among Conservative Members, but I have to echo the note of caution and concerns expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan). Such caution was also expressed in the other place by my noble Friend Lord Roberts of Conwy and by the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr (Adam Price) in the Chamber today. The note of caution is that we must not expect the commissioner to be able to achieve too much.
As the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr eloquently pointed out, the commissioner’s functions will be confined to devolved matters. That is the significant weakness of the Bill because the commissioner will effectively be able to do nothing whatever to intervene formally in respect of many aspects of life that are of specific concern to older people, two prime examples of which are crime and pensions. Indeed, the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Williams) pointed out that under the Bill as drafted, it would not be possible for the commissioner to make any meaningful response to the recommendations of the Turner commission.
Although pensioner poverty is a blight on the life of our nation, the commissioner will be virtually helpless to address concerns such as the consequences of the collapse of the Allied Steel and Wire pension fund, which the Secretary of State mentioned in his speech. I understand that informal channels will be opened up whereby the commissioner will be able to express concerns and advance the cases of pensioners such as those affected in that case, but it is perhaps surprising that the Government did not consider appointing a UK-wide commissioner, or at least, as the hon. Member for Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr suggested, formalising the route by which the commissioner could approach UK Ministers. In the light of that, we should not be too ambitious. We must not expect the commissioner to be the ultimate answer to the ultimate question for older people in Wales. We must be realistic about the benefits that his appointment will bring.
The commissioner will, however, be able to inquire into the effect on pensioners in Wales of the rising levels of council tax, so I hope that he will do that at the earliest possible moment. That matter was mentioned by the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire. We must not forget that Wales, uniquely, has experienced rebanding and the revaluation of dwelling houses, although pensioners in England have been spared that.
Julie Morgan: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the average council tax in my area of Cardiff is lower post- revaluation than the council tax in Bristol?
Mr. Jones: That might well be the case, but it is absolutely clear that if there had been no revaluation or rebanding, the hon. Lady’s constituents would be paying even less.
Chris Ruane: Explain yourself.
Mr. Jones: They would be paying less than is the case after rebanding or revaluation.
Chris Ruane: That is ups and downs.
Mr. Jones: Well, from a sedentary position—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. We cannot have such general, casual conversation. I think that the House has taken the point.
Mr. Jones: We could to and fro on the point ad nauseam, but in my part of Wales, certainly, pensioners are paying significantly more as a result of revaluation and rebanding than would otherwise have been the case.
I echo the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham by querying the powers that the commissioner will have. Clause 10 of the Bill sets up sweeping inquisitorial and quasi-judicial powers that will be backed up by a panoply of legal weapons, including the reference of individual cases to the High Court with the possible ultimate sanction of committing individuals to prison for contempt. Such weapons are very powerful and should not—and will not, I am sure—be used capriciously or lightly. We will thus probe in Committee how the powers will be used and in what circumstances that will happen. Indeed, those powers are not possessed by Ministers. Although it might be appropriate for the commissioner to have them, we will want reassurances from the Government about the manner and circumstances in which they may be deployed.
My hon. Friend has already referred to the powers of entry in clause 13. Again, we will want clarification on how the powers may be used. There is specific worry about how the powers will interface with those that are currently vested in the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales. That was mentioned by the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon), who has some experience of these matters.
We can envisage circumstances in which both the commissioner and the inspectorate might be concerned about what was going on in a particular care home. It would be extraordinary and, indeed, ridiculous if both the commissioner and the inspectorate decided to exercise their comparable powers at the same time. We shall want to explore the matter further in Committee, but the Government may wish to consider whether, in cases in which the inspector is concerned about the activities of a care home, he should have power to call for an investigation by the care standards inspectorate. I see that the Minister is nodding. Presumably that is why the CSI is not among the organisations mentioned in schedule 1.
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