LORD SAINSBURY OF TURVILLE

2 MARCH 2005

Q40 Chairman: Not even a rumour? We have picked up rumours or is it just fluff?

  Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I do not know. Even my special adviser has not come up with a good rumour in this area and, if special advisers are not on to it . . .

Q41 Chairman: Maybe they are one of the four, of course!

  Lord Sainsbury of Turville: That is true!

Q42 Chairman: The Chief Scientific Adviser has often spoken in different environments about the number of people he has under his control going to other departments, Government Departments, to see how they are operating and indeed has said that they have to use consultants at goodness knows what cost. I think he sent something like one person into a department amplified by such consultants. Is finding out how departments do it a good thing for the recognition of science? Is this the best way to get information? He has done a report in DCMS and you will know of the difficulties in others. Is that not caused by the fact that you do not have enough people—a team/taskforce going in?

  Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I think it is always the question of whether you need people as permanent staff or whether you need them for one-off assignments to do particular things. In this case, I think that, given the pressures, we have taken the view that it has to be one-off: this is considered as essentially one-off assignments for particular areas. I have to say that my own particular view is that we too often use consultants in these areas and we should push the balance a little further back towards permanent people, but it is a difficult thing where you have lumpy assignments, of course.

Q43 Chairman: Is it not really a permanent revolution going into these departments and finding out? It is not just a one-off thing and that is it forever. In the same way as this Committee has looked at and scrutinised Research Councils which many people have valued and some have not. It would not be something where you would do it once and that is it forever, would it? Your scrutiny of Government Departments would not be just a one-off either, would it? It would be a permanent revolution, would it not?

  Lord Sainsbury of Turville: Of course, you would want to come back and do more scrutinies of the Research Council, but if you could give us a short break before you do the next lot, that would be appreciated! The odd moment when we were not under scrutiny might be helpful.

Chairman: Thank you very much. Can I say personally that it has been a pleasure that you have reacted to our request that you come and answer questions and you have done that very openly and in a most friendly fashion with the Committee and it has been very welcome. I hope the scientific and technology community out there value this new enterprise. Thank you very much, David. I hope to see you back on 6 May! That was not a question, David, you do not have to answer!

  Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I was going to tell you about a meeting I had with the Japanese Science Minister when I said to him, "In the UK, we have an expression that a week is a long time in politics" and he said, "In Japan, we also have a phrase like that. We say, `Three centimetres ahead and all is darkness.'" That is the basis I am working on at the moment!

  Chairman: I am sure that your support will see you home again! Thank you very much.