WEDNESDAY 1 DECEMBER 2004 (AFTERNOON)

MR DES JAMES, MRS DOREEN JAMES, MR JAMES COLLINSON, MRS YVONNE COLLINSON, MR GEOFF GRAY AND MRS DIANE GRAY

  Q1095  Chairman: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for coming along. Our inquiry could not have been complete—although we have not yet finished—without the presence of and listening to people whose children died. It must be rather difficult for you and we all appreciate you coming along. I think a number of you were here this morning, so the questions we are going to ask this afternoon are pretty much those we asked this morning. So there are no hidden questions with which we are going to try to ambush you. We will try, as far as humanly possible, to be informal, although it is artificially informal (a) because of the subject, and (b) because of the general ethos and structure of Select Committees. We spoke to the Catterick families this morning; and you are here this afternoon. Tomorrow, so I read, we are holding a secret meeting. I must tell you that it is not a secret meeting; it is not that the people are so intimidated that they are not prepared to come and speak publicly, it is an open meeting, 11.30, Wilson Room. The reason it is not taking place in this format is that the parents who are coming, their children's deaths did not fall within the remit of our Committee inquiry, which is Phase 1 and Phase 2 training. So we could not hold a formal session if it was outside our terms of reference. The people who are coming are coming with advisers and friends, and the meeting, I can absolutely assure you, is not closed, which is why I have given the time and the location. So I do not want people to think that we are proceeding behind closed doors because we are not. I said this morning and I repeat it—and I am sorry if you are hearing it for the second time, but there will be people here who were not here this morning—that our inquiry was prompted by the deaths of young soldiers at Deepcut Barracks and elsewhere. However, we are not a substitute for the Police or a substitute for the judicial process. We will not be questioning the findings of the Police or the Coroner about how specific deaths occurred. I am obliged to remind you, and the wider audience who may be following the Committee's work in this area, that this inquiry and this evidence session is not the appropriate forum to make allegations about named officials. Our task is to see whether the Armed Forces are learning the lessons of the past and whether they are doing everything that could reasonably be expected of them to ensure that their training regime and the culture promote the well-being of the people they are training. Having said that, we could not have concluded this inquiry without your presence and the families of those involved in these tragic events. This session is an opportunity for you to tell us about your experiences and to give us your views on how duty of care can be improved. You will have heard the questions this morning; you will know at the end that we ask questions on the method of inquiry, so there is no need to raise it early because I promise you that we will have ample time to deal with it at the end. I know some of you have been attending our sessions on a fairly regular basis, like Mr Gray, but for the benefit of those who may not be aware, could you introduce yourselves and give your relationship to this inquiry—obviously the name of your child who died. As I said this morning, it is not imperative that each person answers the question; if the first answer is adequate then just signify you accept that that first answer reflects the views of three sets of parents. The fourth set of parents are not here, and I am aware of the circumstances and I fully understand them. So I hope this is not too painful a session; we will try to be as thorough as we can and, subject to the constraints imposed upon us, it is pretty much open to you to say what you wish because I do not want to constrain you, subject to the constraints that you have been made aware of. Perhaps it would be appropriate to begin left to right, right to left, or whichever way. Right to left?

Mrs Gray: My name is Diane Gray and my son was Geoff Gray, who died at Deepcut Army Barracks.

  Mr Gray: My name is Geoff Gray, also my son Geoff who was found at Deepcut Barracks with a bullet wound above each eyebrow.

  Mrs Collinson: I am Yvonne Collinson; my son James Collinson died at Deepcut Barracks in March 2002.

  Mr Collinson: I am Jimmy Collinson; my son James Collinson died at Deepcut in 2002.

  Mrs James: I am Doreen James; my daughter Cheryl James died at Deepcut in 1995 with a gunshot wound to the head.

  Mr James: I am Cheryl's father.

  Q1096  Chairman: Thank you very much. I will start off with the same question that began this morning's session. When your children applied to join the Army were you, as parents, given information about the training regime and what your kids might be experiencing upon entering the training regime? Mr James?

  Mr James: We had a number of documents—I cannot bring them to mind instantly, I have to say—but we certainly did not have any detailed correspondence and certainly no meetings, no discussions. We were aware that Cheryl's basic training would take place at Pirbright over a 10-week period, during which time the recruits are not allowed to come home, and in actual fact, so far as we were aware, that part of her training was successful for her personally; and, again, as far as we are aware, there were no issues involving that training. She passed out first time and all the reports that we still have on file were very complimentary from her trainers. She then went from Pirbright to Leconfield at the age of 17 and passed her HGV driving licence, even though she had never sat a test to drive a car—had never driven a car, to my knowledge—and again passed out very successfully. She arrived at Deepcut in November 1995 and within eight days she was dead.

  Q1097  Chairman: Was the letter addressed to her or to you?

  Mr James: Which letter, sorry?

  Q1098  Chairman: The letter telling you about the course that she would be doing, the contents of that?

  Mrs James: I do not remember any correspondence on that, no.

  Mr James: It is vague, I am sorry.

  Q1099  Chairman: No, it is a long time ago.

  Mr James: It is an area which we have never really reviewed or assessed in any way since her death. All we know is that at the time she started doing a lot of training. Her first choice was the Air Force actually, but she was so intent on this life of adventure and travel, and all the other things that are attractive perhaps to a certain section of young people; but she failed the fitness test to get into the Air Force.