Second Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation
Wednesday 3 November 2004
[Mr. Jonathan Sayeed in the Chair]
Draft National Assembly for Wales (Transfer of Functions) Order 2004
2.30 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Don Touhig): I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales (Transfer of Functions) Order 2004.
This is an omnibus order that provides for the transfer of certain functions in relation to Wales to the National Assembly for Wales, giving additional responsibilities to the Assembly. The Wales Office has worked closely with all relevant Departments—the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department for Constitutional Affairs, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport—and the Assembly itself in preparing the order. The draft order was laid before the House on 11 October and it was also debated and agreed by the National Assembly in its plenary session on 13 July. Subject to parliamentary approval it will be submitted to the Privy Council later this month.
Before I deal with the substance of the draft order, it may be helpful if I say a few words about the power in the Government of Wales Act 1998 under which it is proposed to make this order. The power to make the order is set out in section 22 of the Act. It provides that a function of a Minister of the Crown in relation to Wales can be transferred to the Assembly by means of a transfer of functions order approved by Parliament. Since the creation of the Assembly there have been five such transfer orders dealing with the conferring of additional powers on the Assembly across a range of matters.
I should like to be clear about one thing. This is not about amending the devolution settlement. We have always said that the current settlement provides an adequate framework for integrated and consistent policy-making in Wales. In seeking approval to the order we are not raising any fundamental constitutional issues. We always envisaged that the devolution settlement would be augmented in ways that will improve efficient and responsive government, not least because adjustments are required for legislation passed after the Government of Wales Act came into force.
If it would be more appropriate for a function to be exercised in Wales by the Assembly rather than by the Government, it is sensible to provide the Assembly
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with a power to carry out that function and, where possible, we have tried to accommodate that. The provision made in the Higher Education Act 2004 and the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 for the transfer to the Assembly of the responsibility for student financial support and for the fire and rescue services in Wales are recent examples of this principle being put into practice. This needs to be seen as part of the ongoing management of the current devolution settlement.
Five transfers will be effected or facilitated if the House adopts the motion. First, the most significant transfer to be effected is the transfer to the Assembly of those animal health and welfare powers that at present remain with the Government. The case for this transfer has its genesis in the outbreak of foot and mouth disease in 2001, which gave rise to some practical difficulties and public confusion about who was responsible for controlling the disease. That brought into sharp focus the contradiction between those whom the public perceived to be politically accountable and those who actually held legal responsibility.
The current allocation of responsibilities in this area is complex. For example, the Assembly has fully devolved responsibility for three animal diseases—tuberculosis, brucellosis and warble fly—but no responsibility for other aspects of disease control. The delivery of devolved powers is exercised by the Assembly through the State Veterinary Service, which provides professional veterinary expertise and advice. The Assembly also has joint responsibility with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to make and implement policy and secondary legislation under the Animal Health Act 1981. In addition, the Assembly has powers to make secondary legislation for the purpose of meeting European obligations in this area.
The order will simplify matters by ensuring that the Assembly has clear legal accountability for all animal health and welfare matters. It will enable the Assembly to act across the range of the Animal Health Act and related provisions and thus give the Assembly a comparable level of responsibility for subordinate legislation as already exists in Scotland. Importantly, it should sharpen up and make more accessible the delivery of services to the industry in Wales.
Briefly, the order identifies the following general powers for transfer: orders to control animal disease; cleansing and movement of animals; transport of animals, including import and export; slaughter and disposal of animals; licensing of slaughterhouses; prevention and eradication of certain diseases in sheep; control of pests and diseases affecting bees; imposition of levies and compensation related to diseases in pigs.
However, I emphasise that disease is no respecter of boundaries. The proposed transfer provides for greater scope for independent action by the Assembly, but I assure hon. Members that the Assembly is committed to working within the UK-wide disease
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control area and that it recognises that whatever action is taken in Wales needs to fit in with what happens elsewhere in the UK.
I can confirm that the costs associated with the transfer of animal health powers will be met by the Assembly from within its own resources, and it has already made provision to implement these powers.
I should also stress that there has been extensive consultation on the transfer and that there is unanimous support for the proposals in the Assembly and from the farming industry and farming unions in Wales.
The order includes four other functions. The first will enable the Assembly to set fees payable to local authorities in Wales for local land charges and personal searches. At present, those functions lie within the responsibility of the Lord Chancellor. For England, the Government have signalled the intention to devolve most of those responsibilities to local authorities. However, the Assembly has oversight of local government in Wales and it wants a consistent approach to fee setting throughout Wales. We think it right to accede to its request to transfer the fee-setting function to the Assembly.
The order will give the Assembly the power to decide whether items of artistic or historical interest in Wales should be accepted under the highly successful acceptance in lieu of inheritance tax scheme. The National Assembly for Wales (Transfer of Functions) Order 1999 gave the Assembly power to allocate such items to museums and galleries in Wales. It clearly makes sense that the power to accept items that are located, or will be displayed, in Wales should be exercised in tandem with that power.
The order will enable the Assembly to make regulations governing the notice periods in Wales for the removal of abandoned vehicles by the police. The order will also correct an anomaly in the Assembly's power to set threshold levels for water industry inset appointments in Wales.
The order should not be contentious. The policy included in the transfer has been agreed by all parties in the Assembly and has received support from all the stakeholders and industry bodies involved. I therefore urge the Committee to approve the order.
2.37 pm
Mr. Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): How nice it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Sayeed.
Although I do not intend to argue against the basic proposals in the order, there are several important points of which the Minister must be mindful in considering its implications. Perhaps the most important transfer of powers to the Welsh Assembly to be facilitated by the order is the transfer of animal health and welfare powers. The order proposes to transfer to the Assembly a level of responsibility on animal health and welfare issues that is exactly equivalent to that of the Scottish Executive. However, in certain cases the situation in Wales cannot be compared to that in Scotland. Animal health and welfare is one such case, in which we must be careful in making changes.
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Let us consider agriculture. On the Scottish borders, there are perhaps four farms whose land lies in both Scotland and England; on the Welsh border, there are hundreds of farms whose land covers parts of both countries. The transfer of functions relating to animal health and welfare could put many English farmers under the jurisdiction of the Assembly, in which they will not have an Assembly Member to represent them. Currently, of course, every farmer has an MP and therefore access to the Secretary of State. Is there not a risk that action taken by the Assembly could be forced on to cross-border farmers without their having effective representation? I hope that the Minister will assure me that any English farmers affected by changes occurring as a result of the order will be able to appeal to him and will not have to rely solely on an AM representative for an area potentially covering only a fraction of their land.
The possible problems for cross-border farmers do not stop there. A question arises as to whether farmers whose properties lie in both England and Wales will have to answer to the Assembly in respect of its moves on animal health and to English local authorities. Although most animal health regulations are, of course, to the benefit of farmers and their animals, it is not beyond imagining that some people would find it unfair to have to respond to a variety of regulations set by both the Assembly and English authorities. Has enough been done to consider measures to deal with possible conflicts of moves exercised on both sides of the border? We must consider the effects that the transfer of functions could have on national control of diseased animals, for example. Could Wales now take different action from that taken in the rest of the UK in the event of a national outbreak of disease? If so, there is not only the cross-border landowner issue, but the issue of who they answer to.
Questions also surround full devolution of an issue that could clearly affect the whole of Britain. It is acceptable to empower the Assembly to deal with Wales' animal health and welfare issues, and I am aware that that move aims to increase the political responsibility and legal accountability of the Assembly on such matters. However, cases such as bovine TB, foot and mouth and the need for zero tolerance on illegal meat imports are issues with no boundaries. They affect the whole country and should continue to be discussed at a national as well as a devolved level for everybody's benefit.
The devolution of powers to the Assembly on the issue of bovine TB has not succeeded in helping the situation in Wales. Seven years ago, the cost of compensation to Welsh farmers whose cattle had been slaughtered was £100,000. Last year it cost £8 million, and it has cost the UK Government almost £13 million since 1999. Putting such national matters wholly and irrevocably in the hands of the Assembly runs the risk of damaging costs. I hope that the Minister will reassure me that avenues are open for discussion between Westminster and the Assembly over issues that do not heed boundaries.
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A similar question can be raised regarding the Water Industry Act 1991. The proposed change can be seen as a largely technical amendment, giving the Assembly responsibility for setting water limits to water industry inset appointments in relation to Dwr Cymru and the Dee Valley water suppliers, rather than just in relation to Wales. However, such sewage and water undertakings again operate on a cross-border basis. The question again arises about the representatives, consultation and regulations affecting those who do not live in Wales. What action is being taken to ensure that cross-border problems do not exist for English people who will apparently be affected by the Welsh Assembly's powers over water supplies? The strategic health authority, which determines fluoridation, will affect people who do not live in its area, and, because of the concept of mass medication, those people may be liable to sue.
The remaining proposed transfers of functions raise fewer, but still significant, questions. The proposed changes regarding the Local Land Charges Act 1975, giving the Assembly the function of setting fees related to local land registers, arise from a proposed devolution of the function to local authorities in England. As with so many promises that the Government have made, that has not been implemented. However, the question arises as to why in Wales the devolution of the issue should rest at Assembly level rather than at local authority level. Would it not be more sensible to allow local authorities to determine their own most appropriate and most cost-effective fees, rather than setting national levels across a widely varying country?
Fees should reflect the range of local authority costs of recording and providing land register information. I hope that those fees will not be exploited and used as another form of taxation in Wales. As more estates become liable to tax, we must be wary of the problem of the low level of exemption from inheritance tax, in comparison with ever-increasing property prices.
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