MONDAY 17 NOVEMBER 2003

MR PAUL HARLEY, MR ANDREW GOODWIN AND MR CLIVE WILLIAMS

  Q520  Mr Caton: Were you convinced by the SRA's justification for withdrawal of this particular PSR service?

  Mr Harley: I understood their reasons behind the need for quick action, and in terms of the Swansea service as long as there was a good connection at Cardiff into its replacement, then there would not have been too much upset. There was a principle that we had to defend here, and we also saw it as the thin end of the wedge effectively in terms of the fact that if Swansea to Newcastle goes, then the Cardiff to Liverpool or Carmarthen to Manchester might go. There might be further retrenchment from the four ends of the system. Unfortunately, of course, there has been further reduction since then, and Cardiff itself is only left with one Virgin train a day, which is extremely disappointing given the fact that there were seven or eight services under Operation Princess, and these, from my personal observation, were very popular and successful. People came and used the railways when they had a better service.

  Q521  Mr Caton: You have mentioned Rail Passenger Partnership funding. Have you any indication when that might be reinstated?

  Mr Williams: We understand there is a possibility of the Rail Passenger Partnership fund being reinstated, and we very much hope that that aspiration will be delivered. It is very much subject to the SRA getting the additional funding from the Department of Transport.

  Q522  Mr Caton: What impact has its withdrawal had on rail services in Wales?

  Mr Harley: It has stopped all developments dead effectively, because it was a prime fund for minor enhancements, or what you might consider minor enhancements for those who live in the particular areas that benefited from it. They were significant indeed.

  Mr Goodwin: The sort of station developments you were talking about a few minutes ago—it is much harder. If you take station X and there is an identified need for better interchange with buses and a better taxi rank or better waiting facilities, that would have been the kind of scheme that would have ideally sat within the RPP funding initiative. It does not mean that it is impossible to do anything, but one has to chase around the houses an awful lot longer, and probably not get very far for a very long time. Another possibility on the kind of scheme that might have been put forward for RPP is on, say, a rural line, to try and fund an additional train unit and a couple of additional train crew to enable an enhanced service to run up and down the whole line. Was it not RPP that facilitated the improved late evening connection in south-west Wales from Carmarthen, a connection from London, meaning that people could get from London to the far west of Wales later than they had been able to previously? That was an RPP scheme, which funded the additional train crew or something. It is that kind of scheme which, as Paul said, makes a big difference. In the global scheme of things it does not seem very much, but to the people affected, it makes an awful lot of difference.

  Mr Williams: In the context of social inclusion, the Ebbw Vale upgrading from freight to passenger services—people looking for new jobs—and also the upgrading of the freight line in the Vale of Glamorgan, for people in that community who want to get into Cardiff by rail rather than by car, are two major projects in receipt of RPP funding.

  Q523  Chairman: The £2.5 million from the Government: has that replaced the RPP funding or has it gone in any way to replace it?

  Mr Harley: It has been used in one of two places in place of RPP money, but it is not really intended for that. The Welsh Assembly Government had to step in and fund projects or parts of projects which, in my opinion, should really be funded by the SRA. It is money that could have been spent on other enhancements by the WAG, but being spent instead to cover projects that should normally be RPP funded.

  Q524  Chairman: That is what I thought. That is a direct result of the UK Government—

  Mr Harley: Sadly, yes.

  Q525  Julie Morgan: What is your relationship with the National Assembly for Wales, with the Welsh Assembly Government?

  Mr Williams: Very positive. The Minister has the Welsh Transport Forum, which we are represented on, and we have meetings with the Welsh Assembly Government staff and indeed we co-operated with them in drawing up our aspirations for the Wales and Borders franchise, when we introduced Rail Users Must Have Better Services. That was the subject of consultation we had with MPs, local authorities and Welsh Assembly members. There was regular dialogue.

  Mr Harley: That is with the Minister and also with officials. They consult quite widely on all sorts of strategies, some of which you would not have thought a rail passengers' committee would really comment on—green issues, for example. The consultations come out and we input the views of rail passengers. We point out that rail in some places benefits Wales. Rail could bring even greater benefits to tourism in Wales, and the income it brings into the principality, if only it were used more effectively and marketed better. All these comments on what might not initially seem to be direct rail issues we do input to the Welsh Assembly Government.

  Q526  Adam Price: Dr Howells has been quoted as saying "there are no insuperable problems" to transferring rail powers to the National Assembly for Wales. What powers would the Rail Passengers' Committee see as being possible candidates for that transfer?

  Mr Harley: Looking at Scotland, I feel that a similar arrangement to the Scottish Parliament would be nice, ie, the ability of the Welsh Assembly Government to issue directions and guidance to the SRA. It would be useful to some degree if we had a Network Rail zone that covered the whole of Wales rather than the present arrangement whereby there are two zones. Once upon a time, when there were three zones, we had various accounts of train companies having difficulty in planning through trains because you had to apply to one zone for timings, then to another and then to a third; and if one said "no", it all fell through. There are all sorts of ways in which I think the Welsh Assembly Government could input more to the control, operation and management of the railways. As regards devolution of power and so on, provided the appropriate funding was earmarked for the railways in Wales, it would be an extremely positive thing. It would bring decision-making closer to the passengers and closer to the electorate of Wales. It would also result, I feel, in more pride in the railways in Wales, because we already have this new Arriva Trains Wales franchise, the All-Wales franchise; and I think the staff will associate themselves with a Welsh company. Tourism I have already highlighted. The fact that we will have one train company in Wales, apart from the intercity operators, will benefit the image of rail in Wales; and we can generally move forward. Also, the Welsh Assembly Government, in my view, interfaces better with local authorities in Wales and organisations like ourselves, Sustrans Rural Wales and things like that. Overall, it is desirable to move forward and devolve these powers to the Welsh Assembly, with adequate funds of course—which is a big factor in this.

  Q527  Julie Morgan: It sounds as though you would support the idea of transfer of powers, but how would it make a more coherent transport system?

  Mr Harley: It would make it more coherent, in my opinion, because the Welsh Assembly Government has already done some good work, as I have already highlighted, in terms of enhancing bus services through concessionary travel. It can also encourage and to some degree direct local authorities to do certain initiatives, for example entering into quality bus partnerships as some have done. I do not see any reason at all why you cannot have a quality rail partnership in one or two places. The Conwy Valley is one area where you could have such an agreement between the Welsh Assembly Government, the local authority and the train operator, with Network Rail support. It comes back to what I said earlier about bringing decision-making closer to the people. It is also about accountability to some degree. We have already discussed among ourselves the fact that infrastructure costs remarkable sums of money at the moment to renew and maintain. Perhaps if we did have one Network Rail zone for Wales and greater transparency on the costs, we could avoid the suggestion that there should be two or multiple tiers of maintenance on the railway lines in Wales. There is certainly lots of scope for enhancing the railway network, railway services and stations in Wales. With the Welsh Assembly Government at the heart of it, I think a lot of that can be delivered.

  Mr Williams: It is very encouraging indeed that the Scottish Executive are able to give directions and guidance to the Strategic Rail Authority, and when you compare and contrast what has been achieved in Scotland on public transport, as against what has not been achieved in Wales, that teaches us some very helpful lessons. Indeed, the SRA has a member of staff in Scotland, and he gets his leg pulled that he has gone native. He is very much au fait with the needs of Scotland and is able to bat effectively for that country. We have made a suggestion in our submission to you that there should be SRA representation in Wales three or four days a week, and that would be a very positive move in the right direction to get a greater understanding of the needs of Wales. Perhaps that individual could bat more effectively for this country.

  Mr Goodwin: I can bear that out with anecdotal evidence. Talking to various people at the SRA, who are probably doing very good jobs in their own ways, you tell them about problems here and then they tell you about their commuter journeys from Kent into London for example. I do wonder whether they are the best people, good though they may be in their own way, who should be making the decisions about the journey opportunities and journey methods for people living in our part of the world. There does need to be local accountability, both with the SRA and at the Government directive level.

  Q528  Albert Owen: I agree that the SRA is closer to people who work better with representation, but can you give me a concrete example of how the railways are better in Scotland than in Wales, because our Scottish Members of Parliament seem to be denigrating the whole thing because of the impact south of the Border; and how would you get over that?

  Mr Harley: One immediate answer I give to that is that Scotrail has new trains arriving right now, as we speak. There is nothing in Wales at the moment, not at least for the next 15 years, unless something pops up somewhere. That is an example of how the Scottish Parliament can have an influence. Also, there are new stations opening in Scotland. There is some business park on the outskirts of Edinburgh which is having its own rail station. It is large enough now to sustain its own rail service, which will take hundreds of cars off the road. The Scottish Parliament also looks to rail as an integral part of its transport policy. It recognises that with a 15-minute service between Edinburgh and Glasgow it can attract people from off the motorway. If only we had the same service between Swansea and Cardiff, ladies and gentlemen!

  Q529  Chairman: Yes. Thank you very much for a very useful session.

  Mr Harley: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for inviting us. May I take the opportunity to publicly praise the work that this Committee has done, particularly on its last report on the railways in Wales, when the Committee saw that they were absolutely static. You took all our comments into account. You accurately reflected the views of passengers or the electorate, shall we say, and it is an outstanding piece of work. We certainly look forward to the report that will follow these hearings.