5 FEBRUARY 2004

PROFESSOR SIR DAVID KING FRS

  Q200 Kevin Brennan: I am taking a wild guess on it?

  Professor Sir David King: I wonder if you would like to take a wild guess at a few others.

  Q201 Kevin Brennan: I am suggesting that people in the scientific community might have a better idea than me. I have just worked that out from sitting here this morning. It did not take me that long to figure it out. On a serious point, if the names were published, and there is this great fear that people will be lobbied and that they will be rung up in the middle of the night and, you know, sort of annoyed and invited to attend parties they do not want to go and to so on, but if the names were known and lobbying was considered to be inappropriate, would it not be perfectly possible to publish the names of the very eminent people—I am sure that that is correct—who are eminently qualified to make judgments on their peers and to decide whether or not they are worthy of an honour, and to say within the rules, "However, if you do in any way try to lobby or procure somebody to lobby on your behalf for the honour, that would rule you out"?

  Professor Sir David King: I think it would be an opportunity for me to say that in my own position as Chief Scientific Adviser and chairing the committee I have been talking to you very frankly about, if any individual lobbied me for an honour, I would then very seriously consider not considering them at all for an honour.

  Q202 Kevin Brennan: So it rather makes my point, does it not?

  Professor Sir David King: Yes, it does.

  Q203 Kevin Brennan: So you could open the system up, get away from the criticism that it is secretive, without losing that ability to stop this lobbying and nagging of individuals, which obviously a real concern. In order to get on to the Science and Technology Committee—

  Professor Sir David King: Incidentally—sorry, can I just come back; my mind is moving slowly on this—it is not likely, particularly amongst us British people, including the Welsh, that we would, as an individual, go to somebody and say, "What about me for a K?" It is much more likely that you would go to a friend and say "Could you not push the Chief Scientific Adviser for me for a K?" So the lobbying is not limited to individuals lobbying for themselves, and I think this could be a lot of pressure. So it is not entirely clear that publishing the list would be a good idea.

  Q204 Kevin Brennan: If you are interested in a job with the local council, and there is always a little notice on the advertisement that says, "Any lobbying", you know, "of the Committee of Selection or their relatives, friends or contacts", or whatever, "will exclude you from the job", from consideration, it seems to me that would be a simple solution that would enable us to pull back the veil of the state a little bit more for the citizen without necessarily subverting the whole system. Would you agree with that proposition, or would you like to. . . Well, obviously you would entertain it as something to think about?

  Professor Sir David King: As I said, Mr Brennan, I do believe it is a balance of pros and cons, and it is high time that it was looked at very carefully, and I am very pleased the Committee is looking at it.

  Q205 Kevin Brennan: Have you ever come across a recommendation for someone because they do a particular job rather than because they have achieved a particular achievement?

  Professor Sir David King: Have I ever come across such a recommendation? Yes.

  Q206 Kevin Brennan: That someone is recommended for an honour because they have achieved a certain level of position within—

  Professor Sir David King: I have certainly heard of such nominations.

  Q207 Kevin Brennan: Have you ever come across that as a reason for recommending someone for an honour directly yourself?

  Professor Sir David King: No, but I just give you my own view. I do not think that is right. I do not think that the appointment to a position is a reason for giving an honour. I think it is the performance in that position.

  Q208 Kevin Brennan: But you did, in your first answer, say that you believe that that sort of recommendation does come forward?

  Professor Sir David King: Yes, but I am not following through and saying that I know of cases where that has actually gone all the way through.

  Q209 Kevin Brennan: Right. You think personally that that is wrong. If someone were given an honour simply for achieving a certain post, that would be wrong?

  Professor Sir David King: Yes.

  Q210 Kevin Brennan: Okay. One or two other points to clarify. In order to get onto the Science and Technology Committee, do you already have to have an honour?

  Professor Sir David King: I do not know. How can I know if I do not know the membership?

  Chairman: I thought it was that you did know but you were not going to tell us.

  Q211 Kevin Brennan: You see, I think you do know the membership as well, but you do not know, you genuinely do not know, whether or not it is a requirement?

  Professor Sir David King: I am sure it is not a requirement.

  Q212 Kevin Brennan: You are sure it is not a requirement. Could you tell us whether the members, whose names you cannot tell us, all have honours or not?

  Professor Sir David King: No, I cannot tell you.

  Q213 Kevin Brennan: Is that because you do not know or you think it would perhaps compromise your desire—

  Professor Sir David King: I cannot even answer that question.

  Q214 Kevin Brennan: You cannot answer that question either. That is interesting. One last thing?

  Professor Sir David King: I am not dissembling, Chairman.

  Chairman: No, no, you are amusing.

  Q215 Kevin Brennan: One last thing. You said that you believe that there are these other committees that exist, which are for subjects other than science and technology, which make recommendations. Do you have any idea how many of them there are or what the subjects are that they recommend?

  Professor Sir David King: I suppose, and here I am guessing—it would be interesting if you talked to Sir Richard Mottram to see what he says: I shall read your deliberations—I would think that it probably matches the number of departments—I am really guessing—the number of government departments.

  Q216 Mr Prentice: You told us earlier that when you became a Fellow of the Royal Society it was like having a week long birthday. When you were knighted was there a prolonged period of elation as well?

  Professor Sir David King: Yes, there was; and again it was tremendous.

  Q217 Mr Prentice: Okay. You told us that if someone were to be considered for a knighthood that person would have to add lustre to the award and show some evidence of good citizenship. Is a knighthood diminished by giving it to someone—and I do not say this pejoratively—like Mick Jagger?

  Professor Sir David King: I think that what we have to accept is that there is a whole diversity of opinion behind contributions to Britain, and amongst those is certainly our standing in pop culture. In that area I believe it is fair to say that Mick Jagger stands very high and that his cultural contributions, looked at worldwide, have been very significant. So, on that basis, I would say, no, the award has not detracted from the lustre of the K.

  Q218 Mr Prentice: My final question on this point. Not naming names, but again just looking at knighthoods, do you ever feel when you see the list, "That person should not be on it because that person does not add lustre to the award"? Do you ever feel that, without naming names?

  Professor Sir David King: Can I answer your question, say, in relation to the list of Nobel prizes or Fellows of the Royal Society, "always". You will always have a personal view about who should have been there, who did get there and what are your views coloured by. Inevitably, when I see the list of Nobel prizes, I know of a British scientist who, I believe, made just as strong a contribution as the scientist from another country and I feel upset about that. So, yes.

  Q219 Annette Brooke: Can I ask one little question, because I think most questions have been asked. Do you know how Professor Blakemore's name actually got to the sub-committee, because it presumably could not have come through your group?

  Professor Sir David King: The sub-committee would either have an historical memory from previous nominations coming through the Office of Science and Technology Committee, or would then separately, deliberately, consider the members of my unofficial committee. It would do either of those two things, and, of course, that may throw up the same name.