MR MURRAY WATT AND MS HILARY KYLE

27 APRIL 2004

  Q240 Mr Hepburn: Incredibly high.

  Mr Watt: These are the figures that were offered but whether they are accurate or not, I do not know.

  Q241 Chairman: I think what we are saying is the difference between agricultural land and housing is quite staggering.

  Mr Watt: Particularly in Dublin because of the net migration of 50,000 people a year into the city. By using the tax system to access more money then we would be saying to the developers we will put affordable housing in with the housing that would be going in. It is that kind of creativity or innovation that Government might be encouraged to do, particularly given the spiralling land costs in and around Belfast in particular.

  Q242 Chairman: Do you think there is a need for the new village, new town approach that has been used within a GB context within Northern Ireland to ensure that housing need is met?

  Mr Watt: I think over recent years, in particular since 1994, there have been a number of either Department of Environment led or even Belfast City Council led consultations on Belfast City Visions and Urban Plans. Certainly within that there has been an indication of the dispersal of housing and the dispersal of economic and retail activity out towards the country towns that lie within the Greater Belfast area. I think one of the difficulties is that it is very hard to visualise how these will work because an awful lot of these plans seem to have gathered dust on people's shelves and we have never really seen them come to fruition. Certainly there probably is a need, based on the index that the Housing Executive does on the housing market every year, to be focusing on a wider range of areas than simply the traditional.

  Q243 Mr Hepburn: Have you identified any weaknesses in the way that housing need is actually measured and, if so, what improvements do you think could be made to it?

  Mr Watt: I am going to use another illustration, one that is not too far from here in one of the estates about a mile away. There is a block of flats which has been earmarked for disposal and for demolition, in fact it is currently coming down, but one of the suggestions that was offered by local people was that the site could have been cleared and used for sheltered housing accommodation for local elderly people but because nobody had applied for sheltered housing within the locality it was determined that there would not be any need for it. Nobody applied for sheltered housing accommodation within the locality because none existed. There was a vicious circle there which nobody seemed able to break. Indeed, we knew there were people who were frail and elderly within the estate who were living in upper floor flats who could have availed themselves of that accommodation because local knowledge and certainly the Census told us so. I think a bit more creativity in identifying housing need, particularly in that instance, could be beneficial. I do not want to get anybody into trouble but I think the district housing manager would have preferred an option like that rather than the one that we currently have, which is the demolition of public sector flats and replacement by private sector flats.

  Q244 Reverend Smyth: Just following on from that question. Social need is not just for sheltered dwelling. Would you not say that is a problem affecting many areas throughout the city in particular, that people cannot apply because there is not a chance of getting anything there?

  Mr Watt: That is absolutely true. Certainly the conversation that I had with local people in my office yesterday bore that out, that people were not applying for general needs housing in particular localities because they knew there was absolutely none available. Even within your own constituency, Reverend Smyth, in the Belvoir Estate, the Housing Executive now only owns four houses as opposed to the flats. It is very difficult to see how general needs housing could be offered to new families or new households formed from within the local community itself.

  Q245 Reverend Smyth: What methods might improve the measurement of housing need? Have you any suggestions?

  Mr Watt: Again, I think through the mechanism of involving local people and local social housing providers in the district housing plan process that can happen, not just at the district housing level but certainly within particular estates where we are hearing on a regular basis about the long-term concerns of parents who are saying "Where are my children going to be housed in the next four or five years when they are forming their own families or forming their own households?" They do not seem to be able to identify anywhere within their own locality. We need to find some mechanism whereby it is not just need but it is also the aspiration to form households within your own locality, your own community, that should be regarded as one of the criteria, which at present it is not.

  Q246 Reverend Smyth: In your evidence you make reference to "concern continues to be expressed that social housing, and particularly housing in Housing Executive ownership, continues to be viewed as a `residual' . . . " In what sense, and by whom, is social housing being so treated?

  Mr Watt: I think what was indicated in our original response was that the current emphasis on owner-occupation and the focus on private renting had left social renting, and in particular the public renting properties that the Housing Executive owns, as being a lesser sector of the housing market. We meant "residual" in the sense that it is the rump which is left. Quite a lot of the literature and research that has been published, certainly from our own reading, would suggest that many people view public sector renting as a stepping stone to something else. I think in that sense there is a danger that we do not defend the public sector and the public landlord as rigorously as perhaps we might. Certainly with the absence of a new build programme and continued house sales at current rates I think there is a danger that there is an increasing threat of marginalisation for the public land.

  Q247 Reverend Smyth: I can understand your concern. Have you considered what steps can be taken to address what your submission describes as the apparent contradiction between the need for sustainable communities and the lack of adequate supply of affordable social housing?

  Mr Watt: Again, to go back to a previous point, where households cannot be formed within localities where the support mechanisms would be there for child care or even caring for an elderly or vulnerable parent, people cannot access accommodation within the locality to do that and are frequently being asked to travel larger and larger distances to find accommodation and to different parts of the town, different parts of Belfast, for example, where perhaps they would feel with their history, their connections, their family, they might not be welcome given the particular segregated housing market that we have. I think there is a genuine danger that people are being encouraged to move out from the communities in which they reside for the purposes of forming their own households or accessing their own accommodation and that is a threat, or certainly represents a danger, to the cohesion of local communities and there is a danger that some of the sustainability of those communities might be threatened as well because ultimately it is about services, it is about people having access to retail opportunities, to jobs, to shops, to schools and to health care. If these are being reduced then there is a danger that the communities themselves will not become sustainable. I would indicate the particular issue on the lower Newtownards Road as a particular example of that.

  Q248 Mr Bailey: Can we just talk about house sales for a moment. In your submission you refer to the "break up of traditional communities" arising from sales and resales and I suppose two issues arise from that. First of all, how important do you consider it to be to maintain "traditional communities" and, secondly, assuming that you want to maintain traditional communities, how do you reconcile the preservation of traditional communities with the right to buy?

  Mr Watt: One of the things that we frequently hear in all of our Housing Community Network meetings with local communities is that desire to protect and sustain the traditional communities. It is something that is frequently said and it comes from local people rather than our own organisation. Our response to that particular issue in our submission was a reflection of that. Certainly you heard from Mr McIntyre this morning about house sales and how successful it has been in providing home ownership opportunities to thousands and thousands of households who would not otherwise have had that opportunity. Indeed, many people have taken a stake within their own community by purchasing the house in which they live. Whilst there has been—we can quibble about whether it is a high figure or a low figure—a significant number of resales of houses formerly in Housing Executive ownership, I think that the ultimate need has been to replace the housing stock that has been lost to the public sector with new properties and that would be a way of not just sustaining communities but also encouraging new households to be formed within them. The second part of your question was?

  Q249 Mr Bailey: To a certain extent I think you have answered it, how you reconcile the preservation of traditional communities with the right to buy? I would assume from what you have said that you think the right to buy has a role but it is necessary to, if you like, build new houses, presumably within the community, to sustain that community. Is that a fair summary?

  Ms Kyle: Certainly I think that would be our experience from what we have been told at ground level by those communities. Yes, this is an opportunity for them to become a home owner, an opportunity they would not otherwise be able to access however, because of the rising need within the area and the need for housing, yes, there should be alternative social housing then provided.

  Q250 Mr Bailey: There is a way forward that would sustain a traditional community but would also, shall we say, meet the aspirations of people to get on the property ladder. Are there any changes that you think the house sales scheme should have to help that?

  Mr Watt: I think the right to buy—and it has been a right that has been given and a right that has been taken up—people have benefited from that. I think it would be perhaps inadvisable to make any substantive changes to that right. I know that we can talk about the generosity of discount but I think the rights that people had before, new households should have the continued right to do that.

  Q251 Mr Bailey: Just moving on, you note that as a result of the declining stock there is a doubt over the long-term viability of the Housing Executive as a landlord. Do you think it is now the right time to consider the role of the Housing Executive as a landlord?

  Mr Watt: It is always right to consider the long-term future of the public landlord. Our point was that if you are losing the equivalent of a district management unit per annum through house sales and demolition and stock loss, I do not know what the critical point is but certainly there is a point whereby the Housing Executive across all 37 of its districts, perhaps, would need to be reviewed in terms of its long-term future. I think there are estates, there are small rural isolated areas and there are even blocks of flats in Housing Executive ownership where the Housing Executive would be a minor landlord, if it had any presence at all. I think there are particular areas where that needs to be looked at and certainly the Housing Community Networks continue to express some concerns about the long-term future because they do see a continued contraction in the stock level but they also see what they perceive to be threats to the Housing Executive at its present level and organisation through rationalisation of services.

  Q252 Mr Bailey: The logic of this particular approach is that residents and community groups should assume more responsibility for the management of properties. Do you have a view on that?

  Ms Kyle: Certainly our experience through the Housing Community Network would tell us, and through various working groups, that whilst community groups want to be involved and want to be empowered to do that, they do not necessarily want to take total control. If we can use allocations just to illustrate that. There has been a long running debate in terms of community involvement in allocations. Whilst the community representatives would say, "We do not want to allocate the houses, we want to inform and influence but we do not want the role of allocating houses, we do not want people coming to our doors and saying `Why did you let so and so move into the area'" and there are a number of methods we are looking at in terms of perhaps codes of conducts, neighbourhood conducts and things like that which could be encouraged, we are supporting a number of community groups through the framework to take a more active role in some sort of small local service provision where the Housing Executive has agreed to set a small amount of money aside to support community groups to perhaps add value to what they are doing in the district where at the weekends, perhaps, there is no method of looking after the void houses and if a void house gets broken into an awful lot of damage can be done before Monday morning. A community rep would take on the inspection to check on a regular basis and phone the emergency services and have them closed or, for instance, in a small low rise block of flats where they can take on some sort of maintenance role in terms of keeping it clean and tidy the Executive will give the community group a small sum of money towards that, perhaps doing some sort of local estate clean-ups in terms of removal of graffiti, small level things. It is only at a pilot stage but the indications are that the community groups would welcome the opportunity to be more involved but not necessarily actually take ownership at that stage.

  Mr Pound: You have touched on something I was going to come on to later. Obviously you read my mind, which is not that difficult!

  Mark Tami: I would not!

  Q253 Mr Pound: I suspect you have seen everything which could possibly shock you! You mentioned that you did not want to make allocations.

  Ms Kyle: The community groups, not ourselves.

  Q254 Mr Pound: Yes, the community groups did not. What about a role within the allocations process, do you think there is room for any involvement?

  Ms Kyle: Certainly our experience would tell us, and some research that we have carried out in terms of models of community involvement and allocations perhaps from England and in Scotland where they would have pre-tenancy interviews or bringing people along to the local area to welcome them, there are a number of methods which are being looked at and being consulted but it is getting that balance. Obviously we understand the legislation exists and there is a need to protect that. The communities themselves would feel that in certain areas, and again it would be done on a pilot basis, there are three areas fixed for a pilot exercise to investigate what scope there is which the community would be happy with and also the Housing Executive would be happy with as landlord but on a small scale.

  Q255 Mr Pound: It is interesting because this has been tried, I have to say, to an almost universally disastrous level within GB where some of the most bizarre allocations policies and procedures have arisen from the involvement of other groups, which is why we are moving towards a more mechanistic numbers based allocation system now, particularly where boroughs club together to do it. It seems to me that you have, as ever, managed to get a compromise here where you have got some input but not total control, is that fair?

  Ms Kyle: Again, maybe that illustrates our independent role.

  Q256 Mr Pound: You have been reading my mind. I was then going to say would you feel this was an example of your independent role?

  Ms Kyle: I rest my case.

  Q257 Reverend Smyth: Following that question through, is there not some evidence already of disastrous things happening where in certain areas there are groups who may pretend to be part of the community who are allocating houses?

  Ms Kyle: Our experience would tell us in working with the Housing Executive that the groups that they would be involved with in any pilot exercise would be bona fide groups who are seen to be adhering to constitutions and being representative of the whole community. I do not think there would be any wish to go down the line of what you are referring to. I understand where we have particular circumstances in Northern Ireland in terms of anti-social behaviour and things you have mentioned but that is not the line that we are going down.

  Q258 Chairman: It is a very difficult balance though, is it not, because you have used the term "community reps", and there is another term "local reps", who are called in to sometimes pass judgment on issues of anti-social behaviour and even allocation? Is there a danger that you will find that local reps and community reps may end up being the same people?

  Ms Kyle: It may be naïve to say we did not realise that problem exists and that is why we have to be selective in terms of looking at this pilot. If the pilot is tested and it does not work, as my colleague has said in terms of experience in GB, then the case is made.

  Chairman: Mr Bailey, my apologies for interrupting.

  Mr Bailey: I had not realised that my question was going to provoke such a wide scale debate.

  Mr Pound: We are just trying to distract you actually.

  Q259 Mr Bailey: It would appear from what you have said that you would agree that tenants and community groups have got a wider role to play in terms of the management but not, you would emphasise, in the allocations.

  Ms Kyle: No.

  Mr Watt: Even on the initial point you made, Mr Bailey, when you were alluding to perhaps large scale voluntary transfers or other such mechanisms, my understanding of the housing situation in Northern Ireland suggests that there are not the same pressures given the better quality housing stock or newer, more recent housing stock that we actually have to pursue that particular course of action to meet the pressing needs of repair, maintenance and improvement and the ever vexed question of finance. A number of times we have alluded to the uniqueness of the Housing Community Network and this is probably a good time just to commend the Housing Executive for the role that they have played in supporting and nurturing community development, not just through ourselves but through local district offices where district managers and district housing staff are intensively working through some very complicated and complex local issues as well as the local housing ones. They do have a fairly unique familiarity with the local communities in which they work. That is one of the reasons why I suspect the Housing Executive continues to be held in fairly high regard by all of the community reps in the Housing Community Network and why the Housing Community Network itself continues to be a success.